Yes Lara!  That's because this isn't a religion!  It's the real God, in the real Christ, reconciling the world to himself in the real Spirit.  :-)  At the same time, I do know that I would never put myself in a circumstance that would be an opportunity for the flesh...and I'm sure that neither would anyone else who knows what they were in the flesh; even though they also know who they are in the spirit!  :-)

That would be be what I would look for in the behavior of a Christian that was--for example--a pedophile when they were in the flesh.  I would look for them to avoid any appearance of evil and also look for an understanding on their part as to what God has done about the old person, as well as an understanding about who they now are in Christ.  It's bad news when a person still sees themselves as if they were not in Christ, but thinks of themselves of what they were in the flesh!  :-)

I make it a habit to never be alone with any female except my wife or mother!  :-)  I don't trust any one's flesh.  :-D  Especially, my own!  LOL!  However, I do trust Him...for those times when I may have no choice!   We can do all things through him, and I've no doubt that I wouldn't have a problem preaching on the streets of Bangkok Thailand, if I were sent there by the Lord!  To ever go to such a place on my own initiative would be making opportunity for the flesh.  :-)

Love you in Him!
Craig

Yeah Lara, same thing applies to gluttony too doesn't it...since we can't stop eating.  :-)  So, of course, there is grace for these types of things.  I even believe a person may have grace to drink wine in communion even if they were an alcoholic...but the person must be firmly convinced in their own heart that it's permitted by the Lord.  :-)

Craig

Craig,

Extreme sin, in a sense, is easier to keep from than the "harmless white lie" Gary just mentioned.  People who are guilty of the major sins seem to get radically saved from them.  The shear horror of re-offending is more than they can stand.

It's true that we become new creatures when we're born again but until we renew our minds, we think that we're the same old person.  Also, once we've "crossed the line", it becomes easier to cross it again in the future.  In fact, because I've been educated in how I was able to sexually offend the first time, if I wanted to get back into it, I'm sure it wouldn't take me years to "groom" my next victim.

So, in a sense, it's easier to re-offend if you have a mind to re-offend.  I told Jesus on the way back into this thing, "I'm going to have to stay very close to you..."

What happened?  Did you plagiarize something from a copyrighted website?  That's hilarious!

Rob

P.S. I just got blocked from another MyChuch guy :-)  It seems I was too arrogant for him.  Ha!  Imagine that...

I believe the problem these folks are experiencing if they are not believers is the power of Christ's redemption on a human soul which is understandable. But what I can not understand is why would Christians have a problem with this scenrio?

 I don't know if any of you here have herd of the Serial Killer "The Son of Sam" Who used to gun down couples here in New York in the Early 70's, My Pastor pade him a visit not to long ago in prison and can testify he has been saved by christ and is filled with the holy spirit. I don't understand why Christians would have a problem with the Lord having mercy on sinners? Didn't the Lord forgive them? So why would he not forgive others?

 It is sad to see such Christians take the religous dog matic approach to Christ and believe there are sins that are big and small. They actually believe because there offense was small because it is common but of course the Lord would forgive them.But as for the big sinners, Rapist, Muderers, No way no Salvation for them. Now that is histericle. Thank God Jesus mercy does not have such limitations. HIs Great mercy on fallen man only prooves how great his love is for us and we should all give glory to the lord when such people are saved.

                                                       God Bless and great blog topic!

                                                                                                      Raul

I guess it shows how many "Christians", are in name only, instead of "works"

James makes a good case for this. So many people here in the US are "social" Christians. They claim to be a Christ follower, but their actions speak a different thing.

Thus James wrote:

So just saying that a person is a Christian, is not a pass into the kingdom, their faith must be backed up with the fruit. (or the evidence)

The polls say that 83 % of people are beleivers, if that were true, our nation and world would look a lot different. 

[star!]

GOOD DISCUSSION! 

I wish I could say I wouldn't struggle with this, but I do.  I'm glad to hear everyone's insights.  

Dear GrammyB, Crystal and everyone:

The genuineness of his new birth and his understanding that in his flesh there still dwells no good thing, would result in his not wanting to put himself in a position that would be an opportunity for the flesh; nor the appearance of evil.

That is why you will never find yourself alone with me as a woman.  Not only do I not trust my own flesh...I don't trust yours either.  :-)  But I do trust the One who dwells within me and in you!  However either you or I may not have a good understanding of who we are in ourselves (e.g. the flesh) nor who we are in the Lord (e.g. in the spirit).  A genuine Christian may walk by the flesh and therefore sin the same sin they were in bondage to as they were when they were in Adam.  But, there should be some evidence that grace is teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust.  Thus wisdom is indeed required.

I have complete confidence that I could walk into a strip club or down the streets of Bangkok Thailand and not be overcome by lust: if I had no recourse for being there; or if the Lord had called me to be there!  Any other reason for being in that circumstance would cause me to believe that I was giving a opportunity for the flesh.

When a person demonstrates that they really know who they are in Christ and who Christ is in them, then they can be given a measure of trust that new believers cannot be given, seeing that they are still a baby and Christ has not been made complete in their hearts yet.

Brother Warren:

As it is written: he who fails in the smallest point of the law has violated the whole law.  Even under the new covenant, we are under, where we are to consider ourselves dead to the law and sin and the world: the flesh is flesh no matter how it may manifest itself in our lives.  Some struggle with anger, others with leaning on their own understanding, and still others with various forms of sexual desire; but all are a manifestation of the flesh.  Most Christians justify one particular form of sin as OK, because it is socially acceptable, and at the same time absolute condemn folks who are struggling with an area of the flesh that they are not.  It is about a new creation and walking by the spirit; being who we are in Christ, not who we were in the flesh!  We must be careful to have a self image that is of the spirit, rather than one that is of the flesh.  We are neither male not female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free...but we are all one in Christ.  I do not think of myself in terms of my gender,  nationality, skin color, job, or whatever my flesh may desire in the way of food or sex.  I have chosen to define myself in terms of who God says I am in Christ.  To fail to do so is to fail to renew our minds.  To fail to renew our minds is to fail to be transformed.  I am not the slave of who my flesh would say that I am; I am the slave of who God in Christ says that I am!

Blessings!
Craig

Yeah Rob!  Aweeeeesom!

Tell a person addicted to Crack Cocaine that God forgives him.  He'll probably look at you and say, "That's nice..."  An addict isn't looking for forgiveness, and addict is looking for salvation.  Salvation, to a person addicted to his sin, means freedom from his sin - not mere forgiveness.  Thank God for forgiveness, but given the choice between forgiveness of sin and salvation from sin, I'll choose salvation every time.  In Christ, I have real power over the sin that used to control me.  And to be honest, if I had no such power, I wouldn't stay around very long.  I certainly don't need something else in my life the I "gotta do".

That's why most saved drug addicts really know the Lord and who they are in him and who He is in them!  They are not satisfied with the "usual" Christian Life: forgiveness for socially acceptable sins that are repeated in an endless cycle; but that is the only message they've heard.  Or in the completely (not really born of the spirit) religious form of Christianity, it is totally law and only the strong willed are accepted...the weak need not apply.

Blessings!
Craig

Yeah Warren...transformed...by the renewal of our minds.  Well, after the genuine worship part (which isn't music and praise): offering to Father our bodies as a living sacrifice.  100% or nothing.  :-)  Thanks for sharing!!!  Got you up to two paragraphs!  :-) LOL!

Yours in Him,
Craig

Well, it's the context Warren:

Romans 11:33-36 - 12:1-2
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
"Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

In doing a complete word study on both the Hebrew and Greek associated with the English word "worship," you will find that not even once in the entire Bible is worship defined as being either music, singing, or the playing of musical instruments.  It is always a "bowing" before the Living God with the attitude that I offer my entire self to you without any questioning and without any reservations.  This is a little wake-up call to how much we are affected by our traditions...rather than what is actually being said in the scriptures.  :-) [Rabbit trail: but it's free!]

2 Chronicles 29:28-30
The whole assembly worshiped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded. All this continued until the burnt offering was finished.When the offering was finished, the king and all who were present with him bowed themselves and worshiped. And Hezekiah the king and the officials commanded the Levites to sing praises to the LORD with the words of David and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed down and worshiped.

[Find a single verse anywhere that mentions a "worship leader" or "led worship." You won't.]

Best regards,
Craig

 it is the Word working effectually in us to DO . our mind the Lord fully  knows but we do not fully know His.  I know that when Spiritually led by the Holy Spirit you might have a season of joyous laughter "forget not my many Blessings" :)

With love In Christ

Andy

Hi everyone:

Crystal, you wrote:

Ok, but we still have to look at the victims family. If we have not went through this, we have no idea what enters their mind. I saw a father on the news tell a man who had raped, tortured and murdered his 6 year old child that he forgave him because God had forgiven him. This my friend is grace. How many of us could do this? I am asking each one, could you?

No, none of us could do this in the flesh.  But that's the point...a real God is actually required.  This is about power being made perfect in weakness.  We provide the weakness, and God in Christ [by Grace as Andy pointed out] lets his love flow through us in the form of forgiveness.  Forgiveness, by the way, is our releasing them from a personal debt to us.  That does not mean that God will not judge them if they are not truly having a change of mind (e.g. repent).

This is where the rubber really meets the road Crystal.  If they are truly born-again then they have been immersed into the death of Christ and are truly and really a new creation in Christ; in that case how can we not forgive whom God has forgiven?  If they are a sinner and still in Adam then we release them from personal debt.  If they do not come to the Lord then they will be judged for that sin.  It is we who have no right to judge those who are outside the church; those inside we do [1 Cor 5], if there is no true repentance. Look at Corrie Ten Boom, she forgave the death camp guard who had become a Christian!  She had to release all those evil people from a persona debt to her while she was in the death camp! We are releasing them from a personal debt not from the debt they may owe God.

I'm thinking that we somehow (because we really do think we are the center of the universe the first time we were born and that mindset is still left in us to deal with) we think that if we forgive someone then God forgives them!  That is only true if we are forgiving someone of their debt in the name of Christ!  That means, at his initiative and by his prompting.

I think we really need to take a close look at the Lord's Prayer!  If we will not forgive (release) our personal debt against others, then Father will not release his personal debt against us.  That is exactly what Jesus said and what He spoke was not of himself but what the Father was speaking through him.

If Christianity is something that we can do in the flesh then it is not different from any other religion in the world.  Christianity is impossible to live in the flesh!  It was not done by Jesus, and it cannot be done by us.  The very fact that that man forgave the person that did that to his daughter is a testimony to what God, in Christ, can do through a man who is willing.  Does that man have something to boast about other than what Christ, who is his life, has accomplished through him?  If he does then it wasn't Christ it was flesh and self-righteous.  It would be through gritted teeth and for the purpose of trying to gain acceptance with God, to be saved because of what we do.

We forgive because we are forgiven.  That man, if he is not truly repentant, will be judged.  If the dad will not forgive--from his heart--then he will have his own sins to deal with.  That's what Jesus said, and Jesus was not speaking under the old covenant but the new.  Look up the statements made in two different Gospels about how "the law and prophets were speaking until John the baptist; since then the good news of the kingdom was being proclaimed."

Jesus went far beyond the law because he was demonstrating a life that is lived by faith in an indwelling God, by the Spirit, not in conformance to rules.  We do not have to look on a women to lust after her because our flesh has been crucified and we can, in our weakness, turn to Christ who really is our life and give him our eyes.  That is getting out of the boat...and it only works if Jesus is real...and it does work because Jesus is real, and God really is in us.  God is required...not a strong will power and gritted teeth.  Faith!  In God, not in faith.  Faith, in God, not in my self.  This is the good news that is not being preached on TV.  :-)  Well...and not many pulpits either.  But that's what Romans 6-8 says.  We are really completely free from sin or Romans 6 is a like.  We are really free from law or Romans 7 is a lie.  We are really, no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit...or Romans 8 is a lie.  It is a process but when that word is mixed with faith in our heart [not just our head], then we experience it.  It's like walking on water...sometimes we do fail and get a mouthful of water...but it isn't because the word doesn't work...it's because we doubt the word and have faith in the flesh and/or sin that dwells in our bodies.

It's an adventure...but it's a glorious one!   The Living God living through clay pots!  Who gets the glory?

Blessings!
Craig

No Crystal, we are in violent agreement, my sister!  :-D

Craig

FLAG ON THE PLAY!

I've got to rule you "out of bounds" at the 30-yard line, my Craigerzzz.

Jesus was most definitely an Old Testament preacher.  He was "born under law".  Jesus was a herald of the kingdom of God - the New Covenant - but He Himself lived and taught under the Law of Moses.  Jesus was a teacher of the law.

My arguments are all based on that whole "death of the testator" thing that the book of Hebrews is on about.  Jesus, in "The Lord's Prayer" taught them to pray, "Thy kingdom come".  We are living in the age of the kingdom of God today.  Jesus is the King and we are His subjects, bless God!

If you read Paul's gospel a certain way, you can get the message that EVERYBODY's sins are forgiven because of what Jesus did at the cross.  Jesus' remarks regarding God's forgiveness of sin would, therefore, fall under the context of the Old Covenant.

Think about it.  If I hold a grudge against my neighbor, what should God's response be?  Nothing.  God finished His work at the cross of Calvary.  God isn't keeping tabs on all of us - judging whether to forgive us or not.  That decision was made almost 2000 years ago.

For "faith righteousness" to be a reality, things like God's forgiveness have got to be a "done deal".  Jesus came to finish the work the Father gave Him to do.  We cannot be double-tongued on this fact of utmost importance.  If God is still judging each of us individually, there is no benefit to being in Jesus.  Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all to myself".  The "all" that He was talking about was not all men (because the word men  was added by the translators).  The "all" Jesus was talking about was "all judgment".  Look at the context.  It's in John, somewhere.  (I'm gettin' lazy.  Can ya tell?)

To summarize: God cannot be withholding forgiveness in today's economy.  That theology runs contrary to some very important doctrines about how this thing is supposed to work.  If you can integrate it and still keep this thing good news then I'd like to hear it.

Rob

From this verse, the argument could be made that God is not imputing sin to anybody.  But that is not to say that the law of Sewing and Reaping has been repealed.  Be not deceived, God is not mocked.  Whatever we sew we can expect to reap.  It's not God, it's the law of karma; it's garbage in - garbage out.

I think that if God had to wait until we sinned before He forgave, that we would be right back under the old system.  Under that system:

10 I sin
20 I sacrifice
30 God forgives
40 GOTO 10

But since Jesus died once for all, then by default, all sins are forgiven for all time.  If not then Jesus has to die again and again (at least every time someone "gets saved").

The relationship between God and man is different under the New Covenant than it was under the Old.  The players are the same but the rules have changed.  God's forgiveness is as absolute as gravity or the speed of light.  People are NOT going to hell because their sins are not forgiven.  People are going to hell because they don't believe their sins are forgiven.

And when we believe that God is withholding His forgiveness because of something we fail to do then we put into question the value of the cross.  I believe God's forgiveness is as unconditional as His love.

I read a book on psychology called Boundaries and in it they make the case that to hold onto unforgiveness damages the unforgiver - not the unforgiven.  In other words, the physical and psychological side effects of unforgiveness are very real.  To say that God does not forgive until I forgive holds Him hostage to all the physical and psychological maladies that I suffer due to unforgiveness.  If I were God, I'd find a way to distance Myself from anything like that.

That last part may be a little "out there" but I believe the logic to be sound and biblically based.  What more could one ask?

Rob

Rob there is an error in your syntax

10 sinfull nature unable to escape

20 i realize it ?^

30 i sacrifice 

40 God forgives +- or not

50 Goto 30

I can accept the mainstream Church's doctrine regarding baptism for the remission of sins and for the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Every sin has been forgiven (even the unforgivable one) but receiving God's forgiveness is prescribed in the bible by the apostles (the ones we listen to, that is).

That can be (and has been) construed as "works righteousness" but it's not.  There is nothing about the act of being baptized that can produce God's forgiveness or the gift of His Spirit.  Baptism doesn't generate these things but it is the door to receiving what's already been provided.

But we can block God's forgiveness even after we were baptized into Christ.  How?  By believing that God is withholding His forgiveness from us.  Jesus taught that you can have what you believe and say (Mark 11:23f).  If you believe there is a sin so horrible that not even God can forgive it, then for you that belief is reality.

Be careful what you believe.

Rob

Jesus obviously taught people to behave according to the Law of Moses.  He told some healed lepers to present themselves to the priests as prescribed by the Law.  Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that salvation was "of the Jews" - indicating that Jacob's Well was not the appropriate place to worship God.

Jesus could not preach much doctrine of the kingdom of God because He hadn't been crowned King yet.  In fact, He left the apostles behind in order to perform in that capacity.

Or so it seems to me,
Rob

You have heard that the ancients were told...but I say to you...Rob is in denial.  LOL!  :-D

Have a great weekend Rob!  Be good and play outside too!  :-D  Breakfast with the guys in Denny's tomorrow at 6 am...always a good time of fellowship.

Later!
Craig