Thanks, Becky. Your husband makes some good points.

I'm glad you like the bumper sticker on my pick-up truck!

Thanks for your kind comments about our church. I think you are right that our church does a better job than many churches in reaching men, but I'm sure we could still use some improvement, as even our church has more women than men attending. I'll be interested to see what other comments come in.

Mark,

I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure that I can agree that failure to attend church necessarily means a man is unsaved. Murrow feels that it may be because men don't feel that their gifts are needed. He says churches mostly need people to keep the nursery, use verbal and relationship skills, but men are mostly skilled at hands-on doing things. Murrow says that if churches would challenge men and be more outward-focused, they would attract more men.

You seem to assume that men are inherently more selfish and less spiritual than women. I don't know about that. I think women can be just as selfish as men. And I think men are just as likely to believe in the existence of God as women.

I know a Baptist man in Poplarville, Mississippi who started what he calls "Church in the Barn." He invited men to come to his barn on Sunday night, sit on the hay, talk about God, study the Bible,  pray, and share. They are encouraged to wear blue jeans. There are no flowers; it's more like camping out than going to church. In fact, there is no heating or air conditioning in the barn. Women don't like it, but men do. He attracted over 100 unchurched men in a small town of 2,500. The ministry grew so much, and so many men accepted Christ, that he now does "Church in the Barn" fulltime.

Thanks for your thoughts, Mike (and Laura). I think you make an important distinction about the title of the book, but I guess Why some men hate going to church was probably not a title that would sell books.

It would be particularly interesting to hear from a man who does not go to church, or from a woman who has a man in her life who does not go to church, and hear their reasons why. Is it because you don't believe in Christ, or is it because you don't believe in church?  (Which, since the church is the bride of Christ, is like saying, "I like you but I don't like your wife.")

Thanks for your insights, Prophet Jay. I think you really hit on some of the issues for men. Like you said, we need solutions.

Any solutions out there? Anybody reaching men want to tell us what you're doing?

Great idea, Steve! Maybe we need a do-it-yourself clinic at our church.

Seriously, our church is planning to start a unemployment support group, for people who are without work to learn how to do resumes, find out about job services, and just have coffee and talk.

Pastor, ya know churches today are decorated and geared towards women, mostly. They tend to lean towards the softer side of God. For example, the carpet and color scheme in our sanctuary is mauve........yuck (and I'm a woman), the flowers are everywhere......I think that's not a comfortable place for men. Now we worship in the family life center......and I notice men are more comfortable there. The types of fellowships that most churches have again are geared towards women....socializing. Remember, we have alot more words than men, hehehehe. My husband does totally enjoy the cookouts and the fishfries we have.

Men are, at heart, hunters and fixers...... how much of that is for them in the church?

Another thing I noticed is the music.....and I have sang in many churches. I sing a variety of music, and the music that I notice touches women, usually doesn't touch men......or they're uncomfortable with the emotions it brings. Which is something my husband has learned to get past.

Now, the part of this that I'm going to be stoned for by women. Women, back down.......as long as the women in the churches are making alllllllllllllll the decisions.......why should a man want to go? As long as the women will teach all the classes, lead everything.....why should the men step up? It becomes the women's church. This happens sooooooo much. I have learned that when asked to do something in the church, I don't automatically jump in......first I go to God, then my husband and between those two is where my decision is made. Yes, I do understand that women started doing this because it was needed, because alot of men quit doing it......but we need to give it back to them and I'll guarantee there'll be alot less fighting and fussing in the church! We have taken the man's role in the church away and it's time to give it back.

And I do believe that if there were classes or groups for men in learning their roles in the family, it would bleed over into their roles and place in the church. My husband loves small group studies, he is so much more comfortable and I've seen things come out of him that would never have come out in a large church setting.

These are just a few of my observations.........

Angie, thanks for your comments. I agree that the emotional emphasis in church can make men feel out of their territory.

Ken, you obviously agree. Thanks for stopping by.

CindyLou, you sound like you have read David Murrow's book. He says many of these same things. 

I hear from Steve W. that he is doing something about it, writing some new songs that are in your face to Satan and celebrating a soul-winning man. Go for it, Steve!

Thanks, crystal, and thanks Steve for sharing Debbie's comment.

By the way, Debbie, money is not the root of all evil. The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.(1 Timothy 6:10). If churches would challenge men and share how they are doing great things with their money, men would be willing to give their tithes and offerings to a church that is actually doing something.

Steve,

That's interesting, because one of the things David Murrow talks about is that men's physiology is such that they like to move around rather than sit still, which is why boys get into trouble more than girls for acting up in Sunday School class, etc. So Murrow says if the service is too long, men want to move around, and he said to keep the service shorter or even have an intermission.

Our church service is over promptly in an hour, but we also have a lot of activity, because we clap to some songs, and we have a time to stop everything and greet each other. Also, I use a lot of PowerPoint with visual aids, and I often show a short video clip or have somebody from the congregation come up and give a 3 minutes testimony of how what I'm talking about in the sermon impacted their life.

Joey, I think we're saying the same things. I agree that people SHOULD tithe out of the goodness of their hearts, but they often are more excited about a church that is challenging them and really making a difference in people's lives. Like you said, men often don't find church to be where they are. Men like seeing God outdoors. So did Jesus. He usually went to a mountain to pray, not the temple. The other day, a man named Mark who teaches a youth Sunday School class at our church took the whole class outside on a beautiful day and taught the class outdoors. I say we need more men like him to attract men to church.

Pastor Bob:

It is only important that you ask the Lord why people are or are not coming to the fellowship you are called to shepherd.  In my understanding it's about seeing what the Lord is doing and then doing it; it's hearing what the Lord is saying and then saying it.  That is fairly unique to each assembly, just like the words to the 7 assemblies in Revelations; they were specific.

A book is limited to the experience of it's author.  There are as many reasons for going and not going as there are men.  I most likely wouldn't go to your fellowship because you would ask me to leave...what with the speaking in tongues, raising of hands, and prophesying.  :-)  Unless you are a John Piper Baptist.  :-D

You can get people there by appealing to the flesh [their personal interests] or you can get spiritual men there by appealing to spiritual things.  The Lord may have you do the first if the purpose is to have babies and He might have you do the second to raise the kids.

I figure that people quit going to Church or don't go because they aren't meeting the Lord there.  Depending upon the leadership, they may get burned out hearing about being born-again over, and over, and over again; month after month, year after year.  :-)

If we're doing 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 4 then people find a purpose and meaning and the Lord is allowed to do what He want through whom He wants. :-)  I Iike what Major W. Ian Thomas said too: "If God died tomorrow would it make any difference at all in your next service."  If the answer is no then we are merely doing what men can do and it isn't the Lord doing it through us.  That question is to be a discussion between ourselves and the Lord: apart from him we can do nothing and anything we do apart from him is nothing.  It's is very dangerous to look to "methods" for answers.  The Lord may have used that method in one place but He might not want to use that one in our fellowship.  If it isn't being done by faith then it's being done in the flesh and is merely another experiment we are using to try and do the will of God...and all we will be producing is another Ishmael...a work of the flesh.

Best regards,
Craig

What's your observation? Why do fewer men go to church than women?

A man who is truly after God doesn't want to be bothered with drama. A lot of times the church is full of dead men and women. I never fit in at a regular church, but I'm a woman..ops. A man wants a church that's real. Not a FAKE church, where people pretend to be sooo HAPPY :)

A man wants a church where there are other REAL men who love God.

Craig, Thanks for joining the discussion. I'm glad to see some more comments from men. although women are welcome to comment here, too. I certainly agree that you appeal to spiritual people with spiritual things and fleshly people with fleshly things. but would you not agree that we must keep in mind the best ways to communicate to the people we are trying to reach? For example, a missionary learns the culture he or she is going to, learns the language, music styles, types of clothing, customs, not to compromise the gospel or appeal to their flesh, but so that the missionary can communicate the gospel in a way that it will be heard. We seem to forget that North America is a mission field, too. What would happen if we looked at reaching men as our mission? Would we remove unnecessary barriers that keep them from Christ?

Sister Marcia, I did not erase any of your comments; I'm not sure why there was a gap in your post. Anyway, thanks for commenting. But your comments about singing instead of preaching are spiritually out of balance. When we get directions about how to conduct a worship service in 1 Corinthians 14:26-33, it includes both singing and prophesying, among other things. Jesus said the Spirit of the Lord was upon Him to preach, not to sing (Luke 4:18). But all of this is off the subject. The issue is, will we be willing to take an honest look at our churches and accept responsibility for reaching out to men, or are we just going to blame the men for being the problem? 

All of this reminds me of a dog food company that had a convention. The CEO got up and complained that sales were down, and asked for answers. One salesman got up and said, "The problem is those blasted dogs. They just won't eat the stuff."

Pastor Bob, becoming all things to all people that some might be saved is, as you point out, is a good thing to do!  :-)  What those things are, I believe, are something that we have to get hot off the press so that we'll have the faith to mix with the it; and where we do those things in important too.  :-)

My personally story is of the man who was looking for the Perl of Great Price.  I would never go to a church with a large female singles group [Like Evangelistic Temple in Houston back in 1975] because I was coming from a total addiction to all things sexual.  I would never go to a church with music that was directed to the people and not to God, because I was coming from a total addiction to all things hard rock.  I would never have gone to a church like the ones my relatives went to because it was just a bunch of people trying to live by rules derived from the sayings of a dead guy named Jesus.  I went to the "small" church called Bread of Life because I asked the people on the 700 Club the name of a church where they believed that Jesus was still alive and still doing what He did in Acts.  They gave me that name and Evangelistic Temple's name, but they told me about the large youth group like I said.  When I was in the world, I always thought I could go to a Church to find sex if I got desperate because there were lots of single women there!  When I was born-again I was actually born-again and I didn't want to go for women and I didn't want to go to be entertained.  I went to see a manifestation of the Living God, and so I did.  I dragged my best friend with me who was a Methodist Missionaries son, who had totally rejected Christianity as I had done.  I told him I'd found the Living God and a Jesus who still does what He did in days of old!  We went, He got saved, I received the immersion of Jesus in the Holy Spirit.  :-)

I'll admit that I'm just not comfortable with going to church for the purpose of all of us Vietnam Vets getting together to tell war stories so that I can get them to come to church.  I wouldn't have any problem going to an outside meeting for that purpose but somehow I just can't bring myself to believe that what we call "church" is supposed to be primarily anything but an assembly of believers with an occasional "seeker" dragged along or wondering in.  Designing the assembly [Greek] to be an evangelistic meeting keeps Ephesians 4 from happening.

I used to go out on the streets in Houston, down in front of the gay bars and such and talk to folks--along with an actual Evangelist so I was under his anointing--but I'd always end up talking to those guys who were Pastors and Deacon's sons who had fallen away from the Lord.  :-)

I personally, am not called to an assembly that is really an ongoing evangelistic outreach...that's really for Evangelists and not the building up of the believers.  I fit where believers are being built up to do the work of the ministry not sit and watch others do the work of the ministry.  We are supposed to be going OUT into our workplace and the world to preach the Good News, not using believers to bring the world to the Evangelist so we can sit around and watch him do his thing.  :-)

I want Pastor Bob to teach me about who I am in Christ and who He is in me, and to demonstrate how to flow in the Spirit and minister to believers for their edification and up-building; I don't want to come and sit in the bleachers and watch Pastor Bob do his thing.  :-)

Hope that's clearer and more revealing...but of course that is just one man...me.  :-)  I'm a fanatic!  :-)  What can I say?  :-)

Steve, my brother...take your guitar and barbie and set it up down in front of the gay bar and you'll have plenty of sinners to talk too.  I just think we are supposed to be going out into the world and the assembly of believers is for building up the body of Christ so that men and women know how to go set up their barbie in front of the gay bar without falling apart like a $2 suitcase.  I don't want to bring them to a "building" I want to bring them to a Person and then invite them to the assembly, the family!  Why are we making poor Bob do all the work?  Or maybe that's job security and Bob wants to do all the work.  :-)  LOL!  [No offence Bob, I know it's not that way with you brother! :-)]

The letters of Paul were not evangelistic, they were written to the assemblies of believers.  The believers were evangelistic and helped Paul go out into the cities and preach the Good News to those who had not heard it yet.  When they believed then they came to the assembly of the believers.  Not the assembly of the unbelievers.  :-)  I feel that we are coping out on the Lord and getting Pastor Bob to do our job for us.  :-)  Then Pastor Bob is so busy doing our job that he doesn't have time to actually teach the new believers to be disciples of Jesus.  :-)

Well, I know...just another perspective to ponder but that isn't a bad thing.  :-)

Yours in Him,
Craig

Steve, please do tell me when you ever get to Houston!  I'd love to meet you in person!  I really do miss those days down on Montrose here in Houston; but then, like I said, I'm not really called to be an Evangelist; but I don't mind going to the highways and byways with one!  It would be awesome...but I guarantee that somehow you'd be leading people to the Lord and I'd be talking to folks who had fallen away.  :-)

Your brother and fellow Father of a United States Marine!  :-)  Ooh Rah!  Semper Fi!  [They stole the Christian moto!!!  Often tested, forever faithful, brothers forever!
Craig

Craig,

Sounds like you would enjoy coming to our church, so if you are ever over near Savannah, Georgia, drop in on First Baptist Church of Rincon, because at our church, I don't do all of the ministry, it's shared...

I work with members to train them in sharing the gospel. Just a few weeks ago Becky (see the very first comment on this blog from Becky) who is trained to share the gospel, went out with a group and led a young lady to Christ, and that young lady came to church the next Sunday and was baptized, and now is being discipled in a Sunday School class.

In the past month, our members have gone door-to-door in three subdivisions taking a religious survey, and they found five families who were responsive. Already one of those is coming to the church. 

Every Sunday evening, I work with a group of trained volunteers who make phone calls, write letters and go out to visit prospects. Our deacons minister to members, and I work with them in their ministry.

Not long ago, a group of men from our church helped a poor elderly lady whose home had no indoor bathroom. They fixed her up with an indoor bathroom, and insulated her house.

Last Thanksgiving, our church provided Thanksgiving meals for 120 or more families. And on October 31, we provided a totally free Harvest Festival as an alternative to Halloween, attended by 1,500 people.

I could go on, but I'll stop at these examples. Our people are learning to do the work of the ministry, and God is blessing by adding new believers all of the time. I think we baptized about 8 or 10 last month.

If you come to our worship service, you will find lots of praise and worship, Sister Marcia. People will clap to the music, and I can tell you that the service is filled with the Holy Spirit. And then I will open the scriptures and feed them God's Word, teaching them who they are in Christ, and challenging them to go out and minister and share. 

And by the way, we have a LOT of men coming to our church. We have men teaching children and youth in Sunday School, not all are women. We believe and I preach that the man is responsible for leading his home, spiritually. But we could still do better at reaching men. That's where I am approaching this issue with a desire to have the heart of Christ, the power of the Spirit and the wisdom of God the Father.

Pastor Bob..
It's not only men who don't go to church.

Sheila, Thanks for sharing that. There are many men who are like your husband. By the way, if he doesn't already know, let him know that he can download my preaching podcasts from our website at www.fbcrincon.com by clicking on "Listen Online." Who knows? Maybe it will draw him to come hear it live!

Joey,

You are absolutely right, and perhaps other blogs could explore the reasons other people groups are missing from church. But the statistics are that 61% of church attendees are female, 39% male, despite a population that is almost evenly divided. We need to explore the reason for that gap. In fact, I believe that if more men attended church, we would also see more women coming! I believe that women want to be part of a church full of Godly men.

Steve,

You're the man! Did you sing "Holy Soul Winning Man" and "In Your Face Satan?"

Pastor Bob,

You wrote: Sounds like you would enjoy coming to our church, so if you are ever over near Savannah, Georgia, drop in on First Baptist Church of Rincon

Yes I would!  I always appreciate a real shepherd!  Your fellowship sounds awesome and it is very encouraging to hear about what the Lord is doing through you all there!  It really is!  I passed through Georgia on my way to the Marine Air Station in New River North Carolina over spring break.  Don't know when I'll be going that way again but wouldn't be surprised since my son has about 9 months before deployment.  That would be wonderful!  Lord willing!  I like Pastors named Bob too.  My first Pastor and father in the Lord is Bob Cheshier.  He's on a mission trip right now in South Africa...he's been over 50 times.

OK, Steve.  I'll send you my cell number in a message and my regular email address.  Who knows, I think we have some red necks at my fellowship since most of the folks work in the refineries!  :-)  Me?  I'm a software engineer so I'm the exception to the rule.  :-)  [Wouldn't you just know that would be true. LOL!]

Good night all!  The Lord bless!
Craig

Pastor Bob, this book sounds rather interesting and the premise fits right in with John Eldridge's Wild at Heart, where he says point blank that most men at church are bored.  That the traditional church gives them no higher goal than to be nice or dutiful, rather than to live out their masculine heart.  As it has been said above, men tend to be doers, they crave more adventure, more action than most women;  so the constant appeal to the relationship aspect of church just doesn't work.  But the reality is, this Christian life is a battle; God has specially equipped men for it and we despearately need our warrior brothers.  (Eldridge's book Waking the Dead is a great read for men and women on the spiritual battle). 

Anyway, great topic.  God bless,

Maureen 

Maureen,

I agree. In fact, as I read Murrow's book, I keep thinking about Eldridge's book, Wild at Heart.

For example, Murrow says that while 39% of the people attending church are men, there are certain male personality types that almost never attend: personalities he calls "risk takers, fun lovers, and dangerous men." He says, "How many Harleys roar into the parking lot on Sunday morning? How about mud-covered pickup trucks?"

(By the way, we have a few of the motorcycles and a lot of the pickups in our church parking lot each Sunday. In fact, I drive a pickup truck with a bumper sticker that says, "Real Men Love Jesus.")

Lol, love the bumper sticker.  But yet,  a lot of the men in the church have some of those personality types but are keeping them under wraps for appearance sakes.  For example, I spent last weekend hanging out at the gun/military show in my hometown (keeping the the BF and his friend company at their military tables) and saw a few people from church.  Most of the guys (old enough to be my father) would first shoot this guilty look at seeing me, like oops, good church girl saw me here.  (As if the good church girl wasn't there too).  Once you got them talking about what they were buying, ie hunting ammo, home protection, whatever, then it was cool. 

And the worship pastor at my former church both rode a motorcycle and flew his own twin engine plane.  Pretty adventurous guy but you would never know it if you only saw him on Sunday mornings, because then he showed up looking all polished in the suit and in the sedan.  But when you saw him on the Harley, you knew quickly which one was his real personality.  Why the need to hide it?  Just too much fear of man I guess.

CraftsReen,

You make an good point, that adventurous guys show up at church looking too polished. Maybe if that worship pastor would just be himself and ride his motorcycle to church and maybe wear his leather jacket to church on occasion, more manly men would feel like they were welcome at his church.

I think that the answer to this question if PRIDE.  Men just have too much pride.  It is good to have pride in some things, but pride can also get in the way of things that are good.

Men tend to think that they have all the answers, we don't like to admit when we're wrong, and who is this guy to tell me how to live my life.

God's Word challenges us to live Christian lives, it reveals to us where we can improve or have gone wrong, and God's mercy and love is shown all through it and through His Son.

There are lots of excuses men (and women) give for not going to Church: "The church is nothing but a bunch of hypocrites," "Why do I need church when I can just pray and read my Bible in the comforts of my own home," or "I didn't agree with something my old pastor said and I've never been back since!"  I find that these reasons are just a front for what the real reasons are, and they usually stem from either pride or from an ignorance to what church is.

As a man, I am both challenged and nurtured by going to church.  Men need to man-up and allow themselves to be humbled, which is easier for some men than others.

Check out my <a href="http://catholictechtips.stblogs.com/2008/06/12/10-ways-to-avoid-being-a-dud-at-church/">10 Ways to Avoid Being a Dud at Church</a>

I know that in the past when we had a group of men helping people roof homes, clean up their yards, etc. we had a lot of men come out not just to those things but to church. Men like doing, not just sitting and listening.

 We also used to have fishing trips. Recently we had a "game dinner" that brought in men from the community who never came to church before.

The problem is these kinds of ministries never seem to keep going for long.

Several made the point that keeping the service short is also a way to keep men coming. I would have to agree - but the usual problem with doing it is not the pastor's lengthy sermon but the fact that the worship leaders don't know when to quit. Men also like things short and to the point.

I've also observed that when women push their way into leadership, the men tend to back out and leave it all to the women (sorry, ladies, I'm sure you won't like that but it is what I've observed).

Cheryl, you made some good observations on the spiritual side, and Ted. you make some excellent practical suggestions.

Craig, you have both spiritual and practical points. 

Thanks, everybody, for adding to the discussion!

[Fixed a typo.  :-)]

n my first church the men would get together to play volleyball; lots of men came.  We would have a prayer time in the Pastors office afterward.  Quite a few men came for the volleyball, the prayer time was short.

Then, the Lord began to moving in the prayer time in a very real dynamic way and the prayer time got longer and longer.  At the prayer time got longer the few men would come for either volleyball or prayer.  As a brand new on fire Christian I made a note of that and pondered it before the Lord all these years [1975].

The true measure of a fellowships spirituality is not the number of people who gather for food, social fellowship, motorcycle rides, or volleyball; the true measure is the number of people who are involved in genuine fellowship and ministering to one another in small groups like Sunday school classes and prayer meetings.  A few years ago, before the Lord moved me, I was going to a very large 6000+ member seeker friendly fellowship.  The Sunday School class generally would have less than 20 adults in it.  And the ones that were there were the real deal...genuinely caring for one another, etc.

I can see having all those things to gather men to hear the word...the sower sow the word. And if you guys really want masses of people coming and lots of people getting born-again I'll be glad to give you the name of that large fellowship and you can do what they do and it will happen.  The problem with its, you just get a bunch of people who are there for the show and it mirrors our society.  Everyone likes making the babies but few want to actually raise them!  It grieved my heart to see a leadership that only wanted to make kids and then they could care less about raising them...all that counts is getting one for the Kingdom...then they are on their own.

I definitately know that that is not the norm with all the Pastors involved in this thread.  I'm just pointing out the fact that if the men who come to the volleyball game [or cookout] don't end up with a "real" encounter with the Living God then the word that they do hear will be taken from their hearts and even the ones who do receive it with joy, will soon fall away when it get rough.  We need each other and we need strong relationships with the other members of Christ's body.  It's sad, in my mind, to even thing about trying to de-emphesize that fact to try and just meet men in a non-threatening, non-relational way.  Men need to get over themselves!  Drawing back and not being transparent is just flesh.

This, I truly believe, is the key:

1 John 1:7 (ESV)
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we aren't having genuine fellowship then it is only because we are walking in darkness and trying to hide.  We don't want to get involved because we don't want other men to see our weaknesses.  The leadership needs to take the lead and be transparent themselves and expose their own ongoing adventure, their own weaknesses...and how Christ's power is made perfect in them.  If we do that then men are not afraid to come into the light.  If the leadership always puts on the air that they are perfect and know all truth, all knowledge, and have overcome all problems then men will definitely not feel save to expose their problems in that environment.

Sincerely, yours in Him,
Craig

Visual Rabbi (I love that handle),

Yes, I think you're right that we often fail to focus on reaching men. 

Steve,

Keep writing that country music for men! Don't let your publisher dissuade you, dude. Tell him that Christian women will want to buy it to give to their unchurched men. Are you familiar with Carmen's contemporary Christian song, "Satan, bite the dust?"I saw him do that in concert and dramatize it when I was a teenage boy, and it really captured my imagination. 

Well, maybe I was a young adult when I saw it, I don't know. And watch it, I'm not THAT old! (But Carman is.)

Of course, the martyr is the person who is TOO far out in front of his people. Seriously, thanks for the encouragement from behind. I see that hand.

Ted,

You wrote "I've also observed that when women push their way into leadership, the men tend to back out and leave it all to the women (sorry, ladies, I'm sure you won't like that but it is what I've observed)."  I am proof of this.  I really wanted to get involved with our youth group, however when I attended the first meeting, there were three women in charge (I mean no disrespect to the female audience following this discussion). We were discussing what types of things we'd like to do and the ladies wanted to do mostely mission work and that kind of stuff.  These are good things to do, but  I brought a bunch of other ideas to the table; each which seemed to get pushed to the back burner.  This was really frustraiting to me and thus I began helping with another ministry instead (more so out of respect to the ladies).  My heart is helping young people grow in their faith and love of Christ.  Needless to say the youth group is slowly taking off without me, but very slowly.

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn the topic to youth ministry, I was just giving an example of how men can become discouraged.

Steve,

I don't think that Christian Music has turned their back on men completely, however, I have noticed the trend of Praise & Worship albums for the past 4 to 5 years!  I personally get a little nauseous when I hear this type of music.  And it seems that practically every one of my favorite Christian recording artists have done a P&W album.  I think that Christian music needs to avoid trends.  In fact, Christian musicians should be the most creative and inspired of all music, not just follow what is in.  I don't want another cookie-cutter band, or a cooki-cutter albume for that matter.

I'm really enjoying this discussion and I think it is an important one.

Visual Rabbi, Amen!

Steve, Amen!

Cade, I'm glad you're enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for joining in.

Whoa, there were a lot of answers.  I did not take time to read them, it's been a few days since I was asked to come and give my opinion, so I wanted to do just that.  I will read through the rest when I'm finished.  I hope I do not repeat someone else's answer.

My observations are that women are the nurturing species of human beings.  Men are the workers, and most of them work hard all their lives. 

Church is a soft place, soft spoken Christians, love so tender it's hard to touch with roughened hands.  It's hard for a man to sit in Church, just sit, and listen.  There is no action. 

Even my grandsons have a hard time just sitting and listening. 

My granddaughters can be appeased with a paper and pen and told to make a mark after each word I've written down that they hear in Sunday School.  I write such words as God, Jesus, Love, Family. Unity (a hard one to hear in sermons or lessons)...  You know, they actually hear what is being said. 

The boys, though, might sit there and make some marks, if they see the girls do it.  But they are doodling or up and down from their bench, using the bench so the pencil won't poke holes in the paper.

A man works hard, I already said that.  They like action because that is their life.  They can sit for hours in front of a football (or some ball) game and be fine, there is action.  And they can get up and get refreshment whenever they want it.

But then, too, men don't like to be told they have sinned, or done wrong.  Men like to know they are the head of the house and everyone is to follow them.  Ever notice that about men?  I respect my husband as the head of our household.  But he goes to church.  Not always so, becasue before we started going to Church, he was drinking a little, smoking and just didn't feel comfortable listening to the sermon.

Now don't get onto me, ladies.  I know our lives are full of action also.  If we are a stay-at-home-mom, we have floors to mop, dinners to cook, dishes to do, beds to make...you know what there is.  I do not understand how a woman can work if she has a family.  She puts in 8 hours or more at her job, then comes home to do the things stay-at-home moms do throughout the day.  If she's off on the weekend, she tries to catch up on Saturday with the laundry, house cleaning, etc.  Don't forget the children have places to go and things to do, and who is the carpool driver?  Mostly Mom.

Weekends for the man may not consist of a ball game on TV, some men (like mine) don't like sports.  But he has mowing, if he doesn't expect that to be his wife's job, or the oldest children.  He has the car to fix, the roof needing whatever, leaves to get out of the gutter...  We are all busy people.

Oh, here I want to insert something I heard on an advertisement.  "Instead of telling your children to go and do their chores, ask them to come and help you with the chores."  What a sweet thing!  Come and help me.  Be with me.  Children need that from both the Mother and Father.  Sometimes we are just too busy to have them help us.  Much easier if you just give them a list of things they are able to do, and tell them to go do them.

Sunday is a day of rest.  Who needs the rest?  Mother of course!  Mother needs a time away from her work and chores, and what better place than Church; soft spoken, tender love, the Word of God!  What a wonderful place to relax, even with the children sitting (sort of) right beside her.  She needs peace.  She needs God.  She needs quiet.

That is my observations of why men to not go to church as much as women.

Jan

"Perhaps it isn't why men don't go to church...  it is where men find church."

Most profound statement I have seen in a long time.

 I am coming off about a 2 year hiatus from regular church attendance.  I got obliterated in a really nasty church ministry situation that amounted to around 6 years of straight up abuse due to a misguided loyalty to the institution.

 Part of the problem is the institution of the church is not THE CHURCH.  The assembling of ourselves together does not have to be a Sunday morning event.  It sure CAN be.

 Ive started up with my current church now a bit more regularly.  More for my wife and kids sake than mine to be honest.  But I wouldnt have if the staff and guys at this church wernt so awesome about it. It dosent matter if I have missed 3 months of church, if I see one of them around town, they still behave as if I am one of them.  They acted that way so long I have come to believe it!  Every guy likes to be where they feel they belong.

Cade, I can relate to what you said (and many other commenters said) about men backing off from church when women try to take control. Years ago when I was a pastor in Mississippi, I made the suggestion that our annual Parent/child dedication service rotate between Mother's Day and Father's Day each year, rather than always being on Mother's Day. I explained to the women on the committee that it would send a positive message that both the father and mother are important to child-rearing.  Sadly, the women on the committee acted as if I had suggested removing a person from the Trinity for daring to suggest that it be any other day than Mother's Day. (I thought of suggesting they change the name of the event to Mother-Child Dedication, since obviously they felt that father didn't matter.) Anyway, I backed off, and let them run their show. However, when I came to my current church in Georgia, we started an annual rotation of our parent-child dedication service. This year it will be on Father's Day.

Loriinfj, Thanks for sharing so openly with us what must be extremely painful, but needs to be heard. We men need to hear your pain. A real man wants to be a hero; he wants to take care of a woman. If men could realize that they are doing that when they become the spiritual leaders of their homes, I think it would help motivate men to do that. By the way, I stopped to say a prayer for you as you recover from cancer. God bless you in that battle.

Exegete, thanks for suggesting those excellent books. You'll notice that there is some mention of Eldredge's Wild at Heart in the discussions above.

Jan, you sound like have read David Murrow's book. You confirm many of the things he says about how men want to be active and have difficulty sitting still. Murrow mentions that is why men often volunteer to be ushers.

Josh, welcome back to the church, and thanks for telling us what made you comfortable coming back, to be an example for your family and because the men in the church make you feel welcome.

Ken, you're welcome and thanks for joining the conversation.

Doug, thanks for letting me post your comments. You agree with many of the others who commented here.

Doug wrote, "Men don't realize any more that they are the head of the home and that they are responsible for having a Christian home.  I think we as a church and as men of the church have let that happen by not teaching young men and boys that they are to be the leaders in the home and in the churches especially the spiritual leaders."  This is so true!

John Paul II referred to the Christian home as the Domestic Church.  It is within the family that we form our first ideas about Life, God, His Church, Love, Prayer, Christian Charity, and so many other things relating to our Christian faith.

I've noticed that when men do go to church with the family, but do not participate, chances are neither will the young men in the family.  If the dad sings, so does the entire family.  We men need to realize that we are the spiritual leaders of our homes, whether we intend to be or not.

Just one more observation about men going to church just until the kids are grown up and out of the home.  I commend the men for trying to set a good example, or for trying to keep peace in the home, or whatever their reasons may be.  It is not enough for us to just go through the motions.  Kids can see right through this as they get older.  The truth is that we need to not only be praying for these men, but we need to engage them.  And some of you have already posted some great ideas on how to go about doing this.  What are some other ways that we can engage the men who are going to church, but are just going through the motions?

Aaron, good point that the seed must be planted early in a man's life, and that seed needs to be planted by another man.

Stevie Bee, thanks for your comment. I hope you have found a church where you are able to worship. Or are you still staying away? If so, what would bring you back? Would you go to a "Church in the Barn" (see the 4th comment on this blog).

Student, Guten tag! Thank you for visiting this blog from your home in beautiful Germany. Good for you that you explore the Word of God, but the Bible says that "Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another" (Proverbs 27:17.) When you have other Christian friends, particularly other men, it strengthens your faith. So I'll pray that you are able to find a Bible-believing fellowship.

Aaron,

You are so right!  I think a lot of it starts in the home.  This is a lessen for all of us men, that we have a responsibility to be the spiritual leaders in our homes.  We need to be living by example.

I always cringe when I hear that saying. "do as I say and not as I do."  Will we fall short?  Yes.  Are we sinners?  We are.  But, I think this saying of "do as I say..." advocates defeat, or weakness, and cheapens what God can do in our lives.  "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13) would be a much better saying and a much better example to our children.  I am learning a lot from this dialogue and am taking a lot of notes.  Keep it going : )

Mona, Thanks for joining the discussion. You made some great points from a woman's viewpoint, and confirmed a lot of what is being said. Love your sense of humor, too, as always.

First, I'd like to welcome Mona to the conversation.  My mom's name is Mona.

Secondly, I just want to throw out something that our men's group did a few weeks ago and it was pretty successful.  We hosted a Men’s Day of Recollection, where we invited men from not only our own Church, but surrounding parishes to come and reflect on the importance of God in our lives.  About 30 guys came!

We had some great discussions and I was surprised how much the guys opened up.  We also had men from all different stages of life talk about their faith journeys.  One was a college student (one who is in the Military and is discerning God's call to become a pastor).  Another was a middle-aged fella who had turned his back on God in his youth, and on into his adulthood, but by the grace of God and of his loving wife, had returned to Christ and His Church.  And the third was a man in his late eighties who had a lot to share about how things used to be.  I'm talking about getting up in the middle of the night, packing a lunch, and saddling up the horse & buggy to go to Church on Sunday morning kind of stuff.  After Church, his family would eat their lunches and head back for home, arriving at dusk.  How many of us would do this today (in a car)?

At the event, we had talks on The Cross & Faithfulness, Faithfulness in Time (the three testimonies I just mentioned) and The Good News of God’s Faithfulness,   We also had Prayer, good food (very important), and finished it with a Holy Hour of Silent Adoration (optional).  I thought it was very good for our first event.  We got a lot of good feedback, so we are planning to continue it each year.

What are some other ways that we can engage men to become more active in church life, family life, and all other aspects of life?

Sheila,

That's great, sounds like a good book. I hope your husband will put some of the sermon files on his iPod.

Your husband might really enjoy coming to the worship service this Sunday. It will be a very unusual service, moving back and forth from sermon to song to sermon to song. We will talk about what happened in the Lord's Supper, the cross, and the resurrection, and we will celebrate the Lord's Supper at the beginning of the service, with live actors on the stage depicting Jesus and the disciples. There will be visual still pictures from The Passion of the Christ on the PowerPoint throughout the service as I talk about the events of Easter weekend.

Ase, Wow, that is interesting. You confirm what David Murrow says, that men want to be challenged and take a lead and take action. Very encouraging to read that about your church. Watch out! You may have women moving to the U.K. to join the "Jesus Army" where you go to church!

If you enjoyed reading "Why Men Hate Going To Church" then you'll like "The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity" by Leon Podles. He traces the process of feminization from the 12th Century Mystics forward. The feminization of the church has then resulted in the feminization of Western culture. And we are living in the most feminized society in history. It colors the way that we all think and behave. For some, this is hard to see because it is like asking a fish to see the water he lives in.

And there is another difficulty with discussing this topic. That is the assumption that a "church" experience is pretty much the same across the board. But it isn't. Churches are very different. So, to try to talk about why men hate going to "church" assumes that everyone is talking about the same kind of "church" experience.

Generally speaking, liberal churches are more feminine than conservative churches, because the process of feminization is itself a liberal phenomenon -- and the Early Church was masculine, so conservation of it is a more masculine effort. It is also both interesting and significant that the more "hard line" conservative churches bar women from leadership, which then requires a more masculine approach to the faith.

The reason that such churches do this is because of what the Apostle Paul talks about in First Corinthians regarding headship. Headship is about authority. And authority is what we Americans hate the most, following our 1960s roots.

You might also find my blog post, Not Women, of interest.

Phil

I think bordom is the biggest reason. Ever since we were little boys, we had trouble sitting still and being quiet in church.  A more active service helps and a shorter service helps. But, neither of these addresses the real issue; they just makes the boredom easier to swallow.

The deeper problem is the idea that there is nothing for an average man to accomplish at church.  Few men see Christianity as a challenge to fight for.  The message we hear over and over again is to surrender and submit and Jesus paid it all.  Alright, we surrendered and submitted to Christ; so, what is left to do? Why should we go back and do the same thing week after week?  Didn't God believe me the first time?

Christian men will get fired up if they have a challenging purpose.  Show men how they can effectivly share their faith.  Hold them accountable for their fruitfulness, give them feedback.  If a man feels like part of a team that is moving and accomplishing something worthwhile, then he will make the team a priority.  What could be a more worthwhile goal than the great commission? "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

Rob, thanks for sharing so openly. I really feel you should talk to your pastor about how you feel. Encourage him to read this blog. He might surprise you at how he responds to your needs if he is aware of it.

Pastor Debbie, I agree that we need to reach families, not target just men. David Murrow talks about this in his book, that he is not calling for a total elimination of the feminine elements of church, but just for more balance.

Kings Princess, you can say "it's ridiculous" for men to feel uncomfortable with hugging and being sensitive in church, but you are a woman and it seeems ridiculous to you because God gave you a different emotional make-up. I can promise you, that it is NOT ridiculous to men to respond with discomfort at feminine elements in church. In fact, men often feel ridiculous in church when they are asked to hold hands and talk about sharing what's on their hearts, because it is not natural for men. Read Rob Browning's comment above.

I personally struggle with this issue because I have been in church leadership and seen the abuses first hand.

What an interesting article. I was one of those guys who, even after having studied for the ministry, felt that church had become a waste of my time.

 Call it old age, call it maturing, call it whatever...but as I came back to God I began to realize that all sin is pretty much just a matter of pride. And I think it is this same pride that keeps men out of church. Men like to be in control and if we give ourselves over to a Higher Power we have lost some, or all, of that control.

I came to the realization that giving myself over to God doesn't cause me to relinquish control or power or potential, but, in fact, greatly enhances all the attributes and values that a man holds dear because the greatest power in the univere "has your back." Once a guy can wrap his mind, heart, and soul around that concept, all the rest of it becomes largely inconsequential. Whether the music is emasculating, whether we fight against "sensitivity" with every fiber of our being, or whether we just get tired of listening to long sermons--it matters not. None of these things can stand in the way of our true relationship with the Almighty.

Men are just characteristically wired against surrender. But in so doing we gain so much and that's what I strive to help people understand in my walk. I came from the world of rock and roll and still write, record, and perform, so one can see how far I have to spiritually travel to make all of this work in my life. I am greatly saddened by my non-Christian friends and fellow performers who consider me unbalanced or nuts because I have given up the glam and spotlight to serve a much greater good with my talent. If I could, I would have them see that I am not less a man than I was, but indeed, I am now so much more. I feel for those who haven't had this experience. 

 In closing, I just want to add that I pray often for both my former associates in the business, but also the big name stars who are serving the Prince of the Air. All music is spiritual, it just kind of depends on which side of the coin you are on. Some of the most diabolical of these artists walk a very fine line between what is good and what is inherently evil, and I personally would conjecture that many of them are just lost and searching. The reason that I pray for them is twofold: First, I pray for the salvation of all souls, but secondly, I think about what a huge influence they could have if they would only give themselves up to the true source of their talent and power. What a great day that would be for the music that pervades God's Kingdom.

 Respectfully submitted,

John E. Mausen

Midnight Watch Music

San Jose, CA

Happy Easter, everybody, I've been out today and just now getting caught up on all of these posts.

Kay, thanks for joing the conversation and sharing your insights.

Rob B., you're welcome. I'm just concerned about the hurt that you are expressing. Please don't paint all pastors with the same brush. There are many who are good listeners.Your point about the terms "saved" and "unchurch" are well-taken. I agree that the Bible calls us to bring people to faith. But since the subject of this post is about why many men don't like to go to church, I used the term "unchurched" to describe those men who don't come.

Wkdriver, good points about perceptions and leadership. Thanks.

John, thank your for reminding us of the vital importance of prayer. I have seen several men come to the Lord after years of prayers being lifted up for them.

Recent studies that I have read in the news as well as Barna research shows not just men but many people are leaving what we have called church. As good as some of the points in this conversation have been I wonder if our common enemy, satan, has distracted us once again. I don't think that church style, or music, or masculinity really have much to do with it at all. What I wonder is have we put Jesus aside and not made Him the main focus of who we are? Church really isn't where we go. Church is who we are. John 17:20-26 to me is really what it is all about. Not just being one with each other but being one with Christ. We try so hard to get people to church or to a "personal relationship with Jesus" and that is not deep enough. We all have a relationship with Him it's either good or bad. Jesus wants us to be one with Him as He is with His Father. He is the head and we are the body. In Him we live and move and have our being. I might suggest viewing a video on you tube entitled Simple church interviews. It's on my site if you would like to view. It is not about how to do church as much as it is about being the church.
People are interested in Jesus but not interested in the church. Why? The movie, The Passion of the Christ drew in millions. Churches rented out movie theaters, teaching were drawn up to go with the movie, much marketing was done in efforts to bring people in. As far as I know not one church has reported significant growth. Men and Women of God lets lift Jesus high and HE will draw all men and women unto Him.

I appreciate the love all of you display to try to reach the lost. May God Bless you soooooooooo much.

I thought your readers might want to see some key excerpts from Gordon Dalbey's classic "Healing the Masculine Sout - How God Restores Men to Real Manhood" (2003 - W Publishing Group - a Division of Thomas Nelson)

Excerpts from the books Chapter 13: "Where Are All the Men? - Why Men Don't Go to Church"

National parish consultant, Dr. Lyle Schaller, in a briefing of United Methodist leaders, declared that the changing trend that "most concerns" him is the "feminization" of the church in "almost all denominations."  Disturbed that "nobody is taking this seriously or attempting to find out why this is happening," Schaller challenged denominational leaders with the question "Where are all the men?"

Can we Christians simply dare to tell men, "We are the body of Christ. If you want to know Jesus, receive His power, be healed of your brokenness, and do His work in this world, join us?"  Or are we afraid that the desire to know Jesus, be healded, and do His work is just not strong enough in men to warrant forming His church?  Biblical faith udnerstands that God "created the world" (Heb. 1:2 RSV) through Jesus. So the desire to know Jesus msut exist in all of God's cration - including men - no matter how deeply hidden.

Why then, are churches often so unsuccessful in bringing forth that desire in men?

One compelling diagnosis notes that God is presented there as "Father."  And today, in our culture, the human father is often absent from the home, either away at work or divorced from the mother and living elsewhere.  Denied the care he needs from Dad, a boy develops negative association with the role of "father" and transfers those negative feelings toward "Father God."  So he avoids God, and therefore the church.

...Challenge to Evangelism Today interview with Dr. Donald M Joy of Ashbury Theological Seminary titled, "Is the Church Feminized?"  Specifically, Joy calls men to "an orientation towards perpetual repentance for unbridled toughness, our tendancy to control everything, our chauvinism, ur frightening impatience with our children, our tendency to pride and arrogance."  He concludes:

"For most of us, that kind of daily surrender is the key to honesty in all relationships, and it comes at a high price.  Interestingly enough, these tamed men love the parts they can contribute to their homes by active parenting.  And healthy males and females are what will make Lyle Schaller's fears of the feminized church go away. Men whose hearts are turned toward their children will be transforming our churches, doing the work of the Bridegroom who gives his life for his Bride - the Church." 

Certainly Joy offers an attractive vision.  We all want to see more psychologically healthy males in our society.  Anyone who has every been a boy wants to see more fathers willing to show love and care for their sons. But just because a man is psychologically healthy and a caring father doesn't mean he'll go to church, much less be willing to work at "transforming" it.  He could simply be fishing or playing ball wiht his son on Sunday morning instead of taking him to church.

Something about Joy's image of the "tamed" male hints of one-sideddness.  It's entirely focused o men becoming more feminized in outlook and behavior. Certainly, to the extent that we men have avoided and even scorned such "feminine" virtues as child-nurturing, we need to become more feminized.  We've been hearing this since the sexual revolution of the 1960s, and heeding it to a surprising degree.

The question is not whether men should be "tamed," for any unbridled lack of discipline ultimately harms others and keeps your from accomplishign your own life tasks.  The question, rather, is "Tamed by whom, and to what order?"  Any lack of male participation in churches testifies that men will not be tamed by a program based exclusively upon feminine virtues.

Anyone who doubts that men want to be tamed at all simply has not observed young men marching in military uniform.  Despite the expected complaints against military hardships and restrictions, the young man takes great masculine pride in obeying the hsi commander's orders.  He clearly recognizes the discipline, structure, and focus of the military as essential to manhood.  In military service, a man not only agrees to submit to authority, but seeks it as an opportunity to demonstrate proper manly retraint adn focus.

Nor is this sense of military authority and obedience counter tot he kingdom of God. When God rules, we live under His authority and must know how to obey.  For so the Roman officer impressed Jesus when the officer's slave was dying and he sought Jesus' helaing: Luke 7:6-9.

The church has done much over the centuries to encourage men to pursue feminine virtues.  But we have not sought and portrayed Christ-centered ways to pursue masculine virtues.  It's not enough for Christians to portray weakness and tenderness as acceptable in a man.  We also must portray the manly strength and firmness that God gives us.  We must demonstrate that weakness, confessed and submitted to the Living God through Jesus Christ, ultimately brings the very masculine strength for which men hunger: toughness in the face of opposition, decisiveness in the face of uncertainty, and saving power in the face of danger.

As noted earlier, masculinity is rooted in truth-telling.  Men therefore will ultimately avoid a church where leaders skirt the truth - not only the strong and noble truth of God's Wod in Scripture, but also the desperate, shameful truth of our own brokenness and need.

The church that ignores or even scorns masuline values will ultimately lose all men and become wholly feminized; the church that yields to the worldly definition of those values will lose Jesus and become wholly secularized.  The options then become either the church and no men, or the men and no church.

The work of God among men today - and so, the work of the church - is not to feminize our masculinity, but to redeem it; not to make men more like women, but to make us more authentic men.  Certainly, authentic masculinity includes such "feminine" components as tendernes and nurturing care.  But a man cannot embrace even godly feminine values without first being firmly grounded in his masculine foundation.  Without that, tenderness and nurturing care in the man too easily become fearful accomodation to the other person, and abandonment of his manly courage and strength.

Toughness, for example, is essential in the effort to bring God's kingdom to this broken earth as it is in heaven.  As Dr. Joy says, we men do need to repent of our unbridled toughness, not, however, to become exclusively meek, but so that our toughness might be bridled to serve God's purposes and not our own.  Jesus was tough when He stood up the Pharisees, to the mob about to stone the adulteress, to the Gerasene demoniac, and even to the hysterical crown of relatives who gathered after the death of the synagogue president's daughter (Matthew 9:23-25).

Imagine if Jesus had meekly acceded to the feelings of everyone there, and not been tough enough to stand His ground and send them away at such an emotionally precarious time.  He could have gently backed away from the whole thing - and the girl would have remained dead.  Clearly we men must repent not for our toughness itself, but rather for its unbridled character at times.

Toughness submitted to Jesus and exercisef for God's purposes is an essential Christian virtue.  Too often, however Christians allow the inference that toughness itself is a sin by failing to portray and affirm a redeemed toughness in God's service.  This is what drives men away from the church, for it seems to condemn manliness as a sin.  So the church today is perceived by men as a feminine bridle upon their toughness.  Small wonder, then, that somany reject it.

The only bridle that can legitimately be offered to men is the one offered by Father God Himself in Jesus Christ, who urged, "Take my yoke and put it on you, and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in spirit; and you will find rest.  For the yoke I will give you is easy, and the load I will put on  you is light" (Matthew 11:29-30).  If we are going in Jesus' direction, He carries the burden and we simply follow; if we pull against Jesus, intending to go our own direction, we struggle under a considerable burden.

As another has said, Jesus is safe, but he's not tame.  Authentic Christian manhood is therefore manifested in the man tamed only by the Living God - the man who has offered himself as a "living sacrifice" (Romans 12:1) to the Father through Jesus and who is thereby empowered not by his own strength, but by the Holy Spirit. Doctrines and creeds may mark the trail, but they cannot substitute for Jesus, who alone is the Way.  For He alone is the authentic Man, the new Adam who is wholly tamed by God and who cannot therefore be subdued by the powers of the world.

An essential dimension of godly manliness cannot accomodate the world; the man of God cannot be domesticated.  This masculine unsettleness is no less than the Father's discontent with the world's man-made replacements for His order.  Such holy restlessness is granted to those whom God has called to restore His kingdom to this world.  Indeed, the root meaning of the word holy is "set apart," that is, belonging to God and not to the world: "You shall be holy and belong only to Me, because I am the LORD and I am holy.  I have set you apart from the other nations so that you would belong to Me alone" (Leviticus 20;26).

My goal in this book is not to offer yet another guide for helping men to "embrace our feminine side," nor to become more socialized by the world's standards.  Rather, I want to encourage us as men to follow Jesus: to be crucified to our strength and resurrected in His strength - in order to embrace our true manly selves and thereby transform this world "on earth as it is in heaven."

We Christians must be willing, even eager, to say to others, "We're men who have come faceup against our personal brokenness and discovered it's so deep and so intrinsic that we cannot by our own efforts overcome it.  We've found that only by turning our lives over to Jesus Christ do we gain courage and strength to be the men we want to be."

Rob - Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying in your comment.  It just seemed like you said that you were tolerant, but the other part of your comments were complaining about the women in your congregation.  I apologize if I misunderstood and read more into it than was meant.

King's Princess - I am not trying to start a debate on women in ministry - I was just trying to offer another perspective on this topic.  I myself have not taken authority from any men.  In fact I was appointed senior pastor of our church from the male leadership in my district.  My husband is still working on his credentials in ministry, so we decided to share responsibilities in ministry.  That is what both of us always felt was the direction the Lord was leading us. 

Either way I think team ministry is important and the way that the church should be going.  The church we attended in seminary is a mega-church and exemplified team ministry and had a preaching team.  The church we pastor now is small but I'd say we have about 60% women and 40% men which isn't bad for our size and our place of ministry.  

Pastor Bob - I agree that there is definitely a need for balance.   I'll have to read through the book myself.  Some other good books to read might be UnChristian by Kinnaman and The Emotionally Healthy Church by Peter Scazzero.  One gives a picture of what those who do not go to church believe and the other gives reasons how to bring a congregation to health so that people can interact and more people will want to come to church.  We realized that our church was emotionally unhealthy and are working towards bringing it to health.  While we do this, we have added a prayer night to our services and are dedicating Wednesday nights to prayer.  We believe this is what is bringing true growth to our church. 

Anyways, blessings to you as we serve a Risen Savior together in His Kingdom!

Pastor Debbie, Serving as a pastor is an office of authority over men. So, in fact, you occupy a position of authority over men. Also, the Pentecostal Movement is both modern and historically liberal because it allows many things that the older conservative churches forbade. That's what liberalism does, it liberalizes things, allows formerly forbidden things. It is a stretch for a lot of Christians to see Pentecostals and Charismatics as liberal, but historically this is simply the case. The Pentecostal and Charismatic churches were among the earliest pioneers for women in the ministry, and a host of other Christian novelties. The fact that a female serves as a pastor is itself a mark of liberalism. Please understand that I am not picking on you. I'm just providing historical perspective.

The fact that a female preacher is hired by an all male board does not mean that the female preacher is not a feminist or an agent of feminism. It just means that the all male board has already been feminized. The issues of feminiity and masculinity are about more than having particular body parts. Not all women are feminine, nor are all men masculine. In fact, a couch potato that sits around watching sports and swilling beer is hardly a representative of genuine, historic masculinity. Historically, masculinity was about taking responsibility, not avoiding it.

Watching sports -- sitting on the sidelines, cheering -- is itself a feminine activity. Sports, the modern substitute for war, is not a uniquely masculine enterprise. War is about fighting and women can fight just as well as men. Rather, war (and by implication, sports) is more barbarian than anything else -- because war is barbarian. Real men know how to make peace, and how to live in peace. No, I'm not saying that people shouldn't watch sports. That's not the point.

What if we took a different approach to the problem and, rather than blame men for not attending church, maybe we should blame the women for taking charge and making the whole enterprise of the church into a feminine thing. I mean, aren't women as complicit in this problem as men? Who made feminism an issue in society? Wasn't it the women who wanted "equality?" They wanted equal access to the high paying jobs, and to break the so-called "glass ceiling"?

It is quite curious because the men were accused of being full of macho, chauvenistic pride in their traditional roles of having authority. Didn't the women really just want a "piece of the action"? They wanted what they thought the men had -- power and authority. So, they took it, and the men (suffering from 500 years of feminization) just gave it to them. But in this regard the women are just as prideful as the men -- maybe more so, because the men didn't actually want responsibility, but God gave it to them anyway. The women, however, actually want it! Isn't wanting power and authority the definition of pride? According to Matthew 20:25, it is better in the Lord's eyes to be a servant (submissive) than to be a master (authoritarian). And Jesus was talking to the guys!

The King's Princess wrote, "Men used to greet each other with a hug and kiss......and don't tell me that's a cultural thing......Now it is, but generally back then, that's how they greeted each other."

The Amish do this today.  My grandma, a very Southern woman, used to haul the Amish and would often be invited to sit in on the Amish Church service.  The women would all sit on one side, the men on the other side, and my grandma in the middle.  The men would greet each other with a brotherly kiss, as they called it.  My grandma asked them, "Why do you men do this?"  My grandma is a very outspoken women.  They explained it as Miss Princess has, and even pointed to the verse in Scripture that speaks of the brotherly kiss.  She responded, "That aint right!"  Lol : )  I miss my grandma.  She always cracked me up.  I personally would feel a bit uncomfortable kissing another man on the lips.  I'm not telling this story to bash the Amish.  They are very good people. They all came to my grandmother's funeral, after she died of cancer.

Here is another funny story.  This past Holy Thursday, we had the foot-washing (to emulate Christ's washing of the disciples' feet in John 13).  After our pastor knelt and washed the feet of the first fella, the man gave father a hug, which started a chain reaction of the following men to also implement the hug.  Well, the last guy is in my Bible study, and he is what I would consider to be a man's man (he's a farmer) and I couldn't wait to see what he would do.  I had to chuckle, because when the hug started to go down, he instead patted father on the left shoulder so hard that it nearly knocked him over : )  You could just tell that Tom didn't feel comfortable hugging another man, which made it all the more funny to me. I've never been much of a hugger myself.

Johnny Mau,  I really enjoyed your post and agree with you full-heartedly.

Norman, Thanks for sharing.

Bob,

Brother PARoss, My referee is not for any one person, but for a general trend lately in the discussion from several commenters that has turned a bit too personal. This is an emotional issue for several people, and I want people to feel free to express their views here, but I just ask that we build up one another, not tear down one another.

You are absolutely correct that when you exhort, it may not please the other person, but we still have a responsibility to speak the truth. Your views are welcome here, and for the record, I agree with you that a pastor should be a man. I think 1 Timothy 2:11- 3:7 teaches male pastoral leadership. Perhaps this issue of male pastoral leadership needs to be discussed some more here. So what are you guys thinking about that? Give us your comments. Just remember to speak the truth in love.

We must all have guilty consciences, because I too thought the ref's big hand was referring to my post, so I reworded it a bit : )

I understand that we are all from different faith traditions/backgrounds and so I respect what others are saying from their perspectives.  I'm not here to debate theology, I'm here to follow this topic of why men aren't going to church.  If someone says something that I do not agree with, I just skip over that one, because I understand that that person is at a different place than I am.  I'll pray for this person in love and charity.  I think it comes down to respect.

A lot of men like things to-the-point, honest, and often uncensored.  We don't like things watered down.  I think this is a good point that has been brought up by this little hick-up in the discussion.  A man at our Church, where I used to live, said to me, that one of the reasons he started attending this Church was because the message was not watered down, like so many of the other Churches he had attended before.  So maybe this is another reason some men don't like going to church.  What do you think?

Rob, There's hardly anything better for fishing that a can of worms :-)

You probably mean that 1 Timothy does not refer to males, and not that it doesn't lay out qualifications for elders or overseers, also known today as pastors. Of course, not all elders are pastors, but all pastors are elders. So, the elder qualifications are applicable.

It's kinda hard to avoid the male eldership issue with verses like 1 Timothy 3:2, "Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife..." Even if you give the pastorate to a lesbian, it is hard to argue that she would be a husband. I'm very aware of the many liberal, feminist arguments for women pastors. And they make all kinds of "good" sense to our feminized brains, but they don't faithfully hold to the biblical model. So, I need to say in love that you are wrong about this, and encourage you to better Bible study.

Also, if I may chime in for Bob, Christian standards are always (or should be) biblical. The standard for speaking the truth in love is Jesus Christ, who said (among other things): "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15); and "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent" (Revelation 3:19).

And you are right, Rob, in your assessment of the hip young pastor. For the most part seminary degrees should not confer authority on anyone. Why not? Because Scripture doesn't mention them. The whole degree thing is much more like what Pharisees do. Seminaries were targeted by ungodly social reformers a century or so ago as one of the best places to "make a difference." They knew that if they could shape the pastorate they could shape the culture -- and they have been remarkably successful.

And your criticism of the word "unchurched" is right on! While Christ's church is an important reality, and there is no salvation apart from Christ's church, our modern (seminary generated) idea of Christ's church falls short of the biblical definition. It would be hard to find a group of people who are more prideful than pastors, and the more educated they are the more proud of their education they are and the more liberal they tend to be (not all, but most). Why is this? Because for the most part, theological education (like most other education) is owned and directed by the liberal establishment. Things don't have to be this way. There is nothing endemic to education per se that drives it in a liberal direction. But that is where the establishment wants it to go. And that's where it is going -- now, more than ever.

And as far as the idea of "unchurched" goes, as long as churches continue to preach and teach modern, liberal, church growth, feminized pabulum, it might be better that the men stay home. That way, when they actually encounter the gospel, they won't have so much unbiblical crap (can I use that word, Paul does --"dung," Luke 13:8 KJV) to overcome. Most of what Paul did in his ministry was to counter the unbiblical ideas and teaching that had wormed their way into the churches (in Paul's day!), in the guise of Christian truth. Paul did little other than correct and admonish errant brethren -- in love, of course. But the love that motivated Paul was not a matter of making people feel good about themselves. Rather, Paul was motivated by love to tell people the truth -- that they had it wrong, that they were barking up the wrong tree.

Rob, I am not at all surprised by your distrust of ministers, or your allusion to the havoc they have wreaked in your life. For well over a century seminaries have been used as the cutting edge for liberal social change. And the seminaries have produced a crop of wolves who have nested in virtually every denomination and church. I know because I have been there. Now of course, many of them don't consider themselves to be wolves or to be mistaken in their theology or beliefs. They believe what they have been taught. And because their egos have been seeded with the pride of superiority (intellectual snobbery) they will not consider any other perspective because other perspectives have been deemed wrong by their teachers -- particularly the traditional, conservative, historic, Protestant Christian position. This is truer in some seminaries and denominations than others, but virtually all of them have been sliding left for at least a century.

Debbie, I seem to be agreeing with Rob, as well. So, I'm sorry you want to bow out. But before you go let me caution you about already knowing what the Bible says about a thing. When someone already knows all that Scripture has to say about a thing, they are actually saying that Scripture can no longer teach them anything new. But faithful Christians know that Scripture continues to teach, no matter how much it is studied. Growing Christians find that Scripture continues to change their minds about all kinds of things all their lives. Growing in Christ is for the most part a process of disillusionment, of getting free from false beliefs and illusions. No 32-year-old can possibly know all that Scripture has to teach about anything.

Sorry to bring ageism into this discussion, but Paul's discussions about church leadership and authority are saturated with the idea that church leaders should be, well... older. He used the word elder, and it means older. I'm not arguing against younger elders, 32 is not necessarily too young to be an elder. I'm arguing against the fact that younger people tend to think that they already know everything. (It starts at about the age of 12 and some people never get over it.) The younger elders rightly observe that older elders have learned much from study and experience, and that the older elders actually do know a lot. So, the younger elders jump to the mistaken conclusion that wisdom is the same as knowledge, and try to mimic the assurance of the older elders by already knowing things.

Contrast this with one of Paul's primary qualifications for elders -- that they are teachable (1 Timothy 3:2), which means that their learning does not end.

Phil

Pastor Debbie,

Please do not feel like you have to bow out of the conversation on why men don't go to church. I apologize if my interpretation of scripture was taken as a personal attack on you. My whole point in putting up the referee picture was to get away from personalities and focus on the issues.  I do not want you to feel like you have to defend your calling to me. I respect you for answering the call you felt God placed on your life. While I have a different interpretation from you, I do not consider it a fundamental doctrine of the gospel such as salvation by grace or the divinity of Christ. I consider it an area where Christian brothers and sisters should be able to disagree and still work together for our common good. So I just want you to know that you are still welcome to be part of the discussion.

Rob B., you may be right, that we need a whole new blog on the issue of male pastoral leadership. And I may post another blog on that specific issue. But the reason it came up, was that it pertains to why men don't go to church. I've always thought about the male pastoral leadership issue as an issue of Biblical interpretation, so it has been interesting to see it come up as an sociological issue, regarding its effect on male church attendance. It fairly evident from the statistics in David Murrow's book, that female pastoral leadership has a negative impact on male church attendance. That does not make it right or wrong, but it is a factor to consider when you are thinking about your target audience. Thus I think it is an issue that is appropriate to also discuss in this blog. Let's see if we can discuss this issue without attacking individual women who feel called to ministry and without attacking individual churches who feel that the Bible forbids them from calling women pastors. Can we show respect to each other and discuss this issue? If so, then we are speaking the truth in love.

BTW, Rob B., I prefer to be called "pastor" or "Brother," although I have an earned doctoral degree. And regarding time spent reaching the lost, every week I make phone calls and visits to reach out to the lost. I believe evangelism has to be my top priority. So again, please do not paint all pastors with the same brush.

Cade One, I appreciate the tone of your note. You are showing that kind of respect I'm talking about, brother. You are Catholic and I am Baptist, but we can learn so much from each other in this dialogue, so I hope we'll keep the channels of communication open.

I don't buy into the whole "Men are not as interested in relationships" idea. 

Having and keeping relationships is equally important to a man.  I am convinced that guys do not play poker for the change to win money nor do I believe they hunt purely for the pleasure of bagging their catch.  These events/hobbies/etc are usually (not always) in the company of like minded friends and relatives.  I know guys that would sever their left arm to get together with the guys and have a good time.  Those relationships are important.

I know, as a man, I look to my faith community to grow in relationship with other Christian men.  That is important to me.  If most guys are getting their relationship needs met outside the church then we, as leaders of the church, do need to figure out how to engage men.
Personally, I believe that when men understand the importance of their role and participation in shaping the lives of other around them AND when they can grasp the concept of true servant leadership within their faith community those men are the men that become active in a healthy and productive way.  More so than feeling their only places in the church are either Pastor, Handyman, or some leader/deacon/council person.

I guess it depends on the Church you are going to in the first instance. In a liturgical Church where Sacraments are celebrated the emphasis is on worshipping God and the call to holiness through ongoing sanctification by receiving the Sacraments. That place where we find God in the intimacy of a Sacrament is not dependant on the Pastor, the music or the liturgy.

Men want to be pastor-ed my real men. We want Pastors who speak the truth in charity, full Gospel not just what people want to hear. Leaving people in sinful lifestyles is not Christian Charity. 

If you want to get men back to Church go back to the beginning, start with the truth, be practical about what it means to be a Christian man today, get rid of radical feminist overtones in liturgy or Church leadership as this belittles not only men but more importantly women as well.

 Blessings Anthony

I'm backkkkkkkkkkk, LOL.......I read through and noted alot about men not taking their leadership roles in church nor at home. Again, I'm ready for the stoning, hehehehe. If you go through the evolution of the past 100 years on the family......roles changed. Some of it was due to necessity, WWII......the men were gone, women had to take the role at home. But as this continued.....note, women became more and more active in the workforce and all areas of life that generally were men's. With this comes.....eeeeekkkkkkkk, equality. And it bled over in all areas, including spiritual leadership. Many men feel immasculated, and understandably so......and especially in the church. Women cringe at the word submissive, because they don't understand how it works. Fact is, women, if you do it all.....why should your husband step up at home or in the church? Men are fixers, hunters, providers.....they need to know they're needed.....and sadly, they're not being told that now. I saw in a comment earlier, if I understood right, that men aren't trained young in church about being spiritual leaders......well, women aren't trained as young women to be submissive to their spiritual leader either. I've seen many women come to church for years, serve on every committee, every thing that was happening, all the while complaining about their husband who was sitting at home. BUT, when that husband did get right and start becoming the leader God wants him to be, those very women who complained are not happy campers with their "new" husband.

God made man and woman to compliment one another, masculine and feminine.....maybe our churches should draw from that...?

Rob, how ignorant and self-righteous for the men of your church to sit around complaining about men not addressing God as "Thee" in prayer. The Old English "Thee" was actually the familiar form of address before it dropped out of the language, similar to "tu" in Spanish and French or "du" in German, which would only be used when addressing pets, children or close friends. In Old English, "you" was the more formal address. But those men are so bent on following their traditions of men that they would not listen to anybody pointing that out to them. Jesus would call it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

If your church is that bad, maybe you need to find another church. Surely in a town as big as Mesquite, Texas, there are churches with pastors who are not so self-righteous. They are many humble pastors around here in Georgia. Take me, for instance! :-O

Heresy = Here Say....old English term...Here Ye Here Ye....That is the Question.

Hear & Say...Listen & Repeat.

Legal term to substantiate as Evidence [entered] to Prove a Case ...Making Evident by Proving.

The Paradox is ....How Blessed the Feet of those that bring the Good News or Deliver The Message Spoken.

What I'm getting at is ......GOSSIP....... takes a Toll & Fee, [sin]
or has that adverse Effect on The Human Condition.

& comes by the same method.... The Feet of those Delivering The [Counterfeit] News...that sounds good.

Errors in Teaching come by the Same Manner....Spoken Words....so a careful examining is called for.

The BIBLE is The Perfect Word of God.....so How can it be that there could be different Visions of the Meaning ?

So Faith , Hope & Love ..........must have Evidence....in order to persuade effectively, to Compel People
to join forces & do likewise.

Jesus said ...."IF....We loose Our Salty-Ness....We are GOOD FOR NOTHING"...That is...Conditional LOVE.

If We are to Campaign or Desire to Teach......We Must have a ....[CASE] as in order to Win People over.

So only on that [In-divid-ual] indivisible
level can we examine our [effectual faith], our Testimony, & whether our Witness is convincingly a Transforming Force for the Best interest of Mankind.

The Life of Jesus was The Way or The Proof & when asked Show Us the Way He said... "YOU KNOW THE WAY"

We Must have a More Effective Life ..........displayed & demonstrated ..............Just Like The Way Jesus said .........YOU Know the WAY.

Golden2100, The only comments I have deleted were repetitions where people posted the same comment twice, and I deleted one person's comment who used a mild profanity that was an abusive remark toward individuals.

Steve Bee,

In answer to your question, I think there are several factors at work, but I think David Murrow's book is basically on target. Men don't like to waste their time, so if they feel a church is not actually doing something to make a difference in their lives and the lives of others, they don't want to spend time on it. Men like action. Also, many men feel like church is not the place for them, that its "good enough for mom and the kids." Part of this is just a perception, and part is because so many of the things churches focus on appeal to the strengths of women: being verbal and expressive, for instance. But I think there is a great mission field out there to reach men, if we will pay attention to what Murrow is saying, instead of just blaming men for not being spiritual enough.

When I first posted this blog, I never dramed that it would reach over 4,300 reads and 177 comments in less than a month. Obviously, this is a subject that many people care about, and well we should. The missing men may be one of the great unreached mission fields for the church in the world today.

It's time to stop asking questions and start giving answers. So I have posted a new blog that is dedicated to Why Men LOVE Going to Church. Let's share great ways to reach men for Jesus Christ. Some of those ideas were shared on this blog, and you are welcome to repeat the best of those ideas there. 

I will start out by listing what I feel is the best idea from Murrow's book.

*The pastor should focus on being a spiritual father. After all, the apostle Paul said he was a father to the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 4:14-15). Have the pastor mentor 12 men, and teach those men to each mentor 12 others, etc. Women can meet for discipleship groups as well to mentor women on this model.

Okay, these ideas are a start. What has worked in your church? What ideas can you share? Remember, we're only looking for positive things that reach men for Christ. If you have a positive idea, go to the post "Why men LOVE going to church" and post it there.

Donna,

It sounds like your answer is not to give up on church altogether, but to find a church that is truly ministering, or start one yourselves. And it souinds like that is what you are doing.

Top 10 Reasons Why People Don't Attend Church

For several months Pete Goulding, Senior Pastor at Full Life Church in Preston, has been knocking on the doors of local people living around the PNE Football Ground in Deepdale, asking them one simple question, "Why do you think people don't tend to go to church anymore?" The answers he has received have not only enlightened his own desire to reach people with the good news of the gospel, but also they have served to pinpoint the evangelistic focus and effort of the church as a whole.

Pete has knocked on literally hundreds of doors and held extensive conversations with local people. Below is what he has summarized as the TOP 10 reasons people give as to why they have given up attending church. He has also attempted to provide a thought from scripture as an answer to each individual objection. Take a browse, you may find a reason similar to your own for not going to church. Click on the reason of your choice and have a read!

The most popular reason people give for failing to attend church is their lack of time. It seems life has accelerated beyond what is controllable or even desirable. I like the wisdom of an old Scottish proverb I came across recently, “What may be done at any time will be done at no time”.

The principle being that anything we relegate to “sometime” we condemn to “no time”. The simple fact of life is that every single person alive will always find the time to do what he or she really wants to do! Desire not availability ultimately dictates our timetable. Think of all the things you do that are not critically important, for example, watching TV, reading the paper, browsing the Internet, shopping, following a hobby, watching a sport, etc. the list is endless. These are all activities that we want to do, not what we must do. The things that often attempt to ‘muscle in’ on our routine – a new class, overtime, a new hobby, an extra course – we reject on the basis that we have no more time in our week! What we’re really saying is that that new “thing” whatever it is, is not as important as the current “thing” I’m doing. Let me give you an example of this. If you’re like me you will have had friends who insisted that they had no time to exercise or join a gym. Then suddenly they feel uncomfortable twinges in their chest and go for a check-up. The doctor tells them that they must begin exercising; suddenly within seven days they have managed to find six hours in their previously over-packed week! What happened? Something just became more important than the something it replaced!

Do you really have no time for church? Or is it more the case that perhaps church isn't important enough yet to sacrifice for TV, a hobby, paper reading, etc. Let me encourage you, if you're one of those who insist that you have no time for church, give it try. Re-arrange what you have to. Many churches now hold services and meetings during the week, there is much more option than simply the traditional Sunday Morning 10.30am slot!

The second most popular reason people give for ignoring church is that they do not see themselves, nor ever have done in many cases, as particularly religious. Which is great news, because Jesus never came to promote 'religion'. The bible does not encourage a 'religious' life, which may sound strange to say. The four gospels in the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - are the only writings we have that describe the kind of person Jesus was when he walked this earth over 2000 years ago. If you are not familiar with what they have to say, you might be surprised to learn that the majority of Jesus' time was spent with ordinary people in everyday situations. He spoke with the sick, the hurting, the disappointed and the successful. He spent time teaching criminals, helping prostitutes and challenging money-grabbing businessmen. In fact less than 20% of Jesus' time was spent in church with religious leaders and ministers. Why do you suppose that is? May I suggest an answer? I believe it is because Jesus was the most non-religious person who ever lived! Furthermore he actually disliked religious formalism and ceremony.

The religious life that we so often picture today is one full of rules, regulations, dos and don'ts, etc. no wonder people get put off with the thought of "becoming religious"! Jesus never came to introduce a system, or set up an institution, or put together a rulebook. He came to help people like you and me live real life in a real world. He came to teach us how to overcome our fears, to live above our anxieties, to break free of our inhibitions, as well as how to love others, build a better life and respect those around us. If it is becoming some weird 'religious nutter' that keeps you from church, let me reassure you, that that is the one thing that you are guaranteed not to become! God loves you dearly and more than anything else he wants you to be able to live in this ordinary world with extraordinary quality. Becoming a Christian has nothing to do with becoming religious. But it has everything to do with enjoying a personal relationship with God. It is about becoming the person you were always meant to be!

The third most popular reason people give for ignoring church is that they consider it boring and irrelevant for their lives. Talking to a great many people in and around the Deepdale and Holme Slack areas of Preston I have made two very interesting discoveries. The first is that there is a remarkable amount of people who have at one time in their lives, attended church even though now they no longer go. The second discovery I made is that the majority of people would say that they do in fact believe in God and feel the bible has something to say for today, yet when asked do they then attend a church? The answer was a confident "no"! I concluded that the majority of people are not antagonistic towards the church as a whole. In fact the opposite is true, most people are pleased that the church does what it does. The objection isn't even that the church is completely irrelevant, for they acknowledge that it is relevant and helpful for those who go. Their argument is that the church is not relevant for them!

The argument that states that the church is irrelevant for today's life is, I'm afraid to say, a pretty valid complaint and one that I tend to agree with, which may sound strange coming from a church minister! But by in large the church has lost its relevancy, insisting to uphold and sustain its traditions, habits and routines to the detriment of tackling real issues in a real world. We have been guilty too long of answering questions no one is really asking! But is that a justifiable reason for deciding never to attend a church? Not really. More and more churches today are becoming much more relevant in both the content of their messages and the format of their services. The whole approach is becoming contemporary and life-applicable. The next time you assume that every church is dull, boring and irrelevant think again. There may be a church right on your corner that is a really exciting place to be. It beats lying in bed on a Sunday morning or traipsing car boot sales!

The fourth most popular reason people give for ignoring church is that they were never brought up to go as children, therefore, I assume the thinking goes, they've never seen the need to go. This is probably the easiest reason for not attending church, because it cleverly dismisses the 'non-attender' from responsibility. When I speak with people in the Preston area over this reason, they tend to have that "you understand don't you" look on their face, as if they're saying to me, "what else could I do?" In truth I've always found this reason a little odd, coming as it does from adults who have subsequently done and tried a great deal of things that their parents never educated them into - and possibly didn't even encourage! Young adults are not the most willing to surrender control over their decisions to parents, or anyone else for that matter. Yet when it comes to the most important decision of their lives, where they will spend eternity they seem more than happy surrendering the outcome to what their parents did or did not do.

The simple fact is that your spiritual destiny, and have no doubts about it, that is what is at stake here, not your attendance at a church, but where you will spend your eternity, that decision is no one else's to make but yours and yours alone. Some people think that if they have been born into a Christian, church-going home then that qualifies them for heaven. Others think that if they have been confirmed as a child then that too means they are Christians irrespective as to whether they have continued in their belief or not! The bible is emphatic on this one. It clearly states that no one, absolutely no one could be classed as a Christian unless they have personally decided themselves to become one. "If you won't believe I am who I say I am, you're at the dead end of sins. You're missing God in your lives" (John 8:24). This challenge was made in front of a group of religious leaders. You'd have thought that if anyone had been entitled to assume they were "Christians" then surely these boys would have! Yet Jesus challenges even them to make a personal decision. Christianity is a choice we each have to make, not a consequence of the choice of another.

(Read the closing part of the material under the icon "What is Life about?" on the home page for a clear description of this 'choice' I refer to)

The fifth most popular reason people give for not attending church is that at some time in the past they had attended only to find that someone or something offended them or hurt them to such a degree that they concluded that church was not for them. I have to admit, I do sympathize a great deal with this argument. One man once said to me, "Jesus I can cope with, it's his followers I struggle with!" I have been involved in churches for over twenty years and I have seen the good and bad of church life, as well as being the cause of it at times. None of us are perfect, and many of us make a great deal of mistakes. And I would not pretend to downplay or excuse your experience. I have spoken with people who in their hour of great need were ignored by the church. I recall speaking with one lady who lost her child only to find that her minister at the time barely paid her a visit! Negatives like this exist everywhere. Jesus himself said that he did not come to call those who were well, but he came for the sick and the broken. Broken and sick people say and do some pretty hurtful things. In truth whether we have been Christians for two months or twenty years, we are all recovering patients in the fight of life. Which means that from time to time that imperfection shows itself in ugly ways. We say and do things that we ought not to, and mistreat one another in shameful ways.

But that is not sufficient reason to ignore the church or disown the claims of Jesus Christ. Think about this for a moment. Think about all the commitments you keep in any given week in your life. You wake up daily in a home where those who occupy it with you hurt you, disappoint you and upset you on a bi-daily basis. You then go to a job where colleagues offend you at times and criticise you unduly. You then come home to a partner who seldom goes a week without upsetting you or hurting you in some way. Yet each time it never occurs to you to walk away from your family, quit your job or divorce your partner! You have learned to deal with the rough side of life. To accept the 'humanity' of those around you, as well as appreciate that for all the hurtful things there are so many more pleasurable and lovely things these same people do. You have learned to forgive and forget, apologize and climb above hurtful situations.

Even the disciples of Jesus were not immune to criticising and hurting one another. Often the gospels record Jesus having to sit the twelve down and calm their irritabilities with one another. Likewise a great deal of the New Testament letters written by the apostle Paul were written to deal with fall-outs, arguments and relationship difficulties within the various churches at that time. People are people, so can I encourage you to consider Jesus again. The nature of your difficulties may mean that you need to move and try a different church, but that's ok, the main thing is that you reintroduce yourself back into a good strong church and begin to acquaint yourself with the person and teachings of Jesus Christ.

The sixth most popular reason that local Preston people gave for not attending church was that they felt God had let them down in some way. They'd suffered severe tragedy or pain that they felt God could have, perhaps even should have prevented. This is a very difficult position. Coping with a tragedy is painful irrespective of who gets the blame, God or otherwise. A certain amount of tragedy can be pinpointed to the evil of some men. Murder, rape, abuse, war, massacres, etc. the bible makes no bones about this. It categorically states, "we've compiled this long and sorry record as sinners.and proved that we are utterly incapable of living the glorious lives God wills for us" (Romans 3:23). It is men, not God, who have created all things mechanical, many of which become weapons of harm and destruction. I recall speaking with one man who looked me straight in the eye and announced, "I'll tell you why you'll never get me in a church, because religion has started more wars across the world than anything else!" in reality it is mans interpretation of religion, mans definition of it that starts the wars. But then there are those tragedies that occur haphazardly, acts of nature if you like, such as hurricanes, famines, earthquakes, tidal waves and tornadoes, all of which find no human cause of origin. Unfortunately there really is no definitive answer for the occurrence of such disasters. We live in a fallen world where the bible speaks of creation itself "groaning" in anticipation of its release. But is that reason enough to reject Jesus and shun the church? If we had to respond consistently to every unexplained or unanticipated event in our lives by abandoning life itself we would have very little life left to live. No one will ever bring back your loss or reverse your misfortune. But your life and your world will always remain substantially larger than your misfortune. Jesus himself was not immune to suffering. Mel Gibson's recent film Passion of The Christ has brought home to a new generation, the brutal extent to which Jesus himself suffered unjustifiably at the hands of wicked, albeit ignorant men. I cannot explain your suffering or why it happened like it did, I do know however that there isn't a person alive who has not experienced grief and pain to extreme degrees, and I also know that Jesus, above anyone or anything else, is able to heal you, elevate you and give you a new tomorrow that will supersede the pain of yesterday. Don't block God out; he is not the source of the problem. He loves you and has a wonderful purpose for your life!

The seventh most popular reason Preston people gave for not attending church was that they felt it was an unnecessary requirement for living a Christian life. Many times people have said to me when I've asked the question why they felt attending church was unnecessary, "Well you don't have to go to church to live a good life!" which I happen to agree with. Or I've been told, "I pray everyday, but I don't go to church, I don't think you need to, you can pray just as well at home!" of course while both of these arguments are true, they both miss the point of what going to church is all about. You don't go to church to validate your experience. People do not go to church in order to be considered a Christian or to impress God by attending his house! You go to church as a consequence of who you are not as a requirement of who you think you ought to be, let me explain.

When you go home after a day out working or studying, it is not to be considered a member of the family or to become a member. You go home because that is who you are; you are a member of that family, it's part of your life, your identity. You could argue, "Well I don't need to go home to be a 'Smith'," (or a Wilson or a Jones, etc). And you would of course be correct. You could move to the other side of the world but you would still be what you are, a member of that family. You go home because you want to, it's where you belong, to go home to anywhere or anyone else just wouldn't feel right! In the same way the bible describes God's house, the church, as the believers 'spiritual' family, with fellow believers as our spiritual brothers and sisters. Church is where you go as a consequence of believing, which is not to say that every attendee in church is a staunch believer! Many still attend out of a sense of duty or tradition. But the bottom line is that attending church will not influence God in your favour at all. He is looking for genuine faith, genuine belief not lip service, which is all-too-often what mere church attendance deteriorates to.

My reply to those who say, "Why should I go to church, I can believe without attending!" is simply, "Why shouldn't you go if you do in fact believe?" Think about it. If you are a member of that club, a part of that family, an accepted member of that social group, then why shouldn't you go and enjoy the benefits of mixing with people of a similar mind and desire? This is where I often land upon the real crux of this kind of objection. The bottom line is that people who hold to this argument are really trying to say "I don't want to go, I've got better things to do!" if you genuinely feel you do believe and you do pray, then find a good, lively, relevant church, and get attending, you'll be amazed how beneficial you will find it!

The eighth most popular reason people gave for not attending church was that they genuinely had never really given it any serious thought. This type of person I can immediately feel comfortable with because I admire them for their honesty. They are not trying to embarrassingly hide the fact that they do not attend church, nor are they trying to concoct a half-hearted reason as to why they have ignored the church all their lives, they are simply identifying the truth that they have never thought about it! I have been surprised at how many people fall into this category. It isn't just exclusive to the young either, I have spoken with many middle-aged and a few elderly who have similarly admitted this to be the reason why they have never been to church.

To never have given church or God any thought can mean either of two things. First that a person has genuinely never really thought about it, which doesn't mean he or she has never heard of it, but just that they have never taken any amount of time considering it. The second means that a person has in fact given it some thought but decided it isn't worth pursuing. Now to those are like the first person, those who have never taken the time to consider it, I appeal to you to think more seriously about exactly who God is and what precisely that means for your life. You can start by reading the article "What is life about?" (Click the icon on the home page). I appeal to you because there is far more at stake here than simply getting your behind to fill a chair at some church! What you believe about God will determine not only how you will live your life now, but also where you will spend eternity after you're gone.

But to those like the second person I would ask a question, exactly what is it about God that you judge to be unworthy of pursuit? People I have known who have travelled this route often dismiss the church and the claims of Jesus and the bible with a casual, "well if that's what you want then its good for you, but I'm sorry, it's not for me!" Now you realise that this is possibly the most illogical and nonsensical reason you could give for dismissing God. If Christianity and the bible are true then it is "good" for every one of us, but if it is not true then we as Christians are deceived, and it is anything but "good" for us! Could you imagine an airplane pilot and a passenger arguing in the cockpit of a Boeing 747 as it began its descent for landing, the pilot begins engaging the necessary procedures while the passenger thinks he knows best and begins making up his own way of landing the aircraft! What a ridiculous position! But how much more absurd would it be if the pilot then turned to the passenger and said, "if that's the way you want to land this plane, and you're happy with that, then that's great for you. I don't agree with you, but as long as you're happy!"

There is only one way to land a plane correctly and safely; an aircraft is not designed to accommodate multiple landing procedures. There is no such thing as "your way" or "my way" when it comes to landing a plane, there is only "THE way", the right way! Jesus never came to bring a 'multiple choice' message. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me" (John 14:6). There is no room for variation in a statement like that, in effect Jesus was saying - to put it bluntly - "It's my way or the highway!" Unfortunately there is no room for improvisation. Whether you see yourself as person one or two, my encouragement to you is not to leave it too long before you do in fact give God some serious thought

This ninth objection for why people do not attend church is one that I have come across predominantly - though not exclusively - in older people. Years ago, so people of this opinion tell me, you became part of a vicious circle of pressure. The minister expected the parents to be in church, that expectation spilled to the children of these parents who were then also expected to accompany their parents to church. But for those who felt they didn't need to abide by this rule - woe-be-tide them come Monday morning when the priest paid his usual weekly visit to their school! One dear old lady put it this way; "You were personally singled out by the minister and felt extremely embarrassed if you hadn't been in church that particular Sunday!" Years of persistent pressure of this kind caused church to be seen as something of a chore, a duty; a necessary 'must-do', as well as an institution that showed little regard for individual choice or opinion. As these same children grew up, and society changed drastically, people became far more expressive, far freer to be and do what they considered best for them. In reality many of them simply grew past caring what the minister or priest thought of their attending or not attending. Consequently many of these children who had felt compelled and coerced to attend church in the past, exploited their newfound freedom as adults to take a stand and discard the church.

Could you blame them? Not at all! The seventeenth century astronomer and physicist Galileo once wrote, "You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him to find it within himself". It has been said that,

"A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still"

Forcing anyone to do anything against his own will never changed a single mind. Let me encourage those of you who have grown tired and fed up with the church for what you have been made to perceive as a dogmatic, heavy-handed, bullyboy institution. It is not the true picture, Jesus never came to strong-arm people into faith or belief, but he came to invite people to consider who he was and what he stood for. May I invite you to reconsider the true message of the church, the person of Jesus? I think you will be amazed as to how very different Jesus' attitude is to that of so many of those who claim to run his house!

This tenth and final objection for why people do not attend church is a particularly sad one. Sad because it often breeds great tension in the home as well as ensuring that neither party gets the best of either world! Having said this it is also fair to say that this is not a tension that is automatic. I know plenty of married women, and some men, who are actively involved in their local church even though their partner wants nothing to do with it! But for some that is not the case. Their partners are not only disinterested but positively antagonistic. They adopt a whole host of guilt heaping tactics inferring that the partner cares more for the church than their marriage, that they like the church more than their own home, etc. of course the opposite is often true. Those who love God and follow him are often better husbands or wives because of it.

There is no ironclad rule that can be applied here; every situation is so unique and different. But there is no reason why this cannot be dealt with much the same as any similar issue where the husband or wife wants to be involved in a particular club, hobby, group or interest for which their partner shares no enthusiasm. For every husband or wife that disapproves of their partner's involvement with a local church, you can be sure that they themselves will be engaged in pursuits that hold no mutual pleasure. The husband for example, who disapproves of his wife's involvement in the church may also at the same time, be allocating ten hours or more of his week to playing golf with the boys! I have found that most things can be resolved if two people sit and share hearts, expressing the advantages and positives of being involved in a particular thing. If many of these so-called objectionable husbands had to sit down and really think about it, they may find that the church is not only providing their wives with spiritual instruction, support and encouragement, but it is also widening their social circle, helping their kids to adjust to life and building a stronger family unit. If you happen to be one of those husbands (or wives), then would you receive a little advice? Before you begin to rant and rave at your partner, try and see their involvement not from your prospective, but from theirs!

Let me leave you with this thought. Martin Luther King was once asked how, as a convinced pacifist, he could be an admirer of Air Force General Daniel "Chappie" James, who at that time was the nations highest-ranking black officer. Dr. King replied, "I judge people by their own principles - not by my own".

Norman,

Thanks, that was really good information!

Gene,

Good thoughts. Thanks. (I'm not yelling.)

I can see this!

Pastor Bob,  I haven't really been following the Golden2100 debate ; )  It seems that you posted some links to some sites that describe what this Dr. Murry's Group really teaches?  Golden2100 does bring up a good point, that you should get your information from the horse's mouth.  However, I think that Golden2100 has made himself appear as an angry, bitter person, who has a great passion for the Word of God.  The latter is a quality that is shared by most whom are following this topic of "Why men do or do not attend church."

Golden2100,  It might help your passion for our Lord's Word, if you are able to articulate it in a charitable manor.  Your comments were probably deleted by Pastor Bob, because it went way beyond the topic of this post.  And, if your tone was as it was in your most recent posts, then I do not blame Pastor Bob.  Typing in ALL CAPS or in all bold text represents yelling in the techy world, so keep this in mind too.

Now I know that you are probably getting worked up just reading this, which is not my intention.  So, why is it that you think men do/do not like to attend church?  Oh yeah, "A church does not save, God does." (I skimmed back through the discussion quickly)  God Bless.

Aren't men taking a risk and, most certainly, are showing they're somewhat mentally challanged by NOT going to church?