I see a OSAS debate coming again.  And I'm not quite ready to do the debate thing (again), but I do have an honest question.  As I've mentioned before, our Bible study is going through Acts.  From a OSAS perspective, what exactly happens in Acts 5:1-5:11?

Sorry.  Third paragraph suggested that's the way this was going.  And I'm not really interested in redoing the debate again (especially since we continued in e-mail).   Just ran across that as I say and I knew how it fit into my beliefs and wasn't sure how it fit elsewhere.  Maybe some time I'll follow up via e-mail.

As to why believers don't act/talk like they've been freed from anything significant, who that is not a Christian do you know who believes that at the core they aren't basically a good person?  That's one of the problems with modern churches.  Nobody wants to do the judgemental, we are all sinners in some way thing.  They just want to talk about  Love, Love, Love.  Going back to the Greg Laurie well again.  In order for the good news to mean anything, they need to know the bad news.

Yay! A Gospel that really is full of grace and good news! This is exactly why I think that properly distinguishing Law and Gospel is so critical.

As many people have pointed out to me (either directly or in things that I've read), it is so very easy for us to slip back to trying to deal with God according to the Law in one way or another. Even people who are committed to "justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone" can succumb to the temptation, whether by trying to coerce righteous behavior or by trying to turn faith into some kind of a work. Thank God that He reminds us through the Scriptures, the encouragement of fellow believers, etc. that the Gospel really is gracious, that grace really is free, and that we are free indeed.

"...there is no more sin for those who are in Christ Jesus!"

Aww, you didn't pick up on the "all" and attempt a universalist position!  Nuts.

You also didn't even mention the free will vs. God's sovreginity debate.  Poo!

;)  Great post, Mike.  Star'd.

lol - thanks Zach (or Jessica?), that is a resounding endorsement!!  Brad, I agree!! Freedom isn't worth wading in, may as well dive all the way in!! ...you know, like just what is "a little bit of freedom" anyway, but no freedom at all!  ~mike

Mike-n-Laura,

Congratulations on your breakthrough! I think it would only be heretical if you were led to the thinking that you no longer sin. I know when I first began to understand my liberty, I actually did think it was impossible for Christians to sin. I was confusing freedom from condemnation (true) with freedom from sinning (false). The second is false, and heretical, because as a human being, you will sin until the day you die. If you don't think so, you have a small view of Sin. You are perhaps too wrapped up in the action of sin, and not the attitude of sin. Every breath we take that is not dependent upon God and fails to glorify Him is sin. But! There is now no condemnation! Our future sins are covered by future grace (I recommend the book by John Piper of that title). Never forget, that whether you are a veteran believer of 60 years or a thief on a cross, you are still 100% dependent on God's grace for salvation! Such grace!

Growing - I find it interesting that in a post about freedom in Christ, someone would bring up the fact that we were always free. I'm not trying to get in a debate over free-will (because it's like arguing that my wife's cooking is better than your wife's), but if Christ sets us free, doesn't that imply that we weren't free pre-Christ?

Mike-n-Laura,

As far as being orthodox, you are. As far as being outside mainstream Christianity, I'm afraid you might be. Even mainstream Christianity mixes in a little law-observance, even just to remind Christians that they shouldn't really do whatever they want to do. I think this is because the people they are talking to still really want to sin.

Instead, Christians are free, completely, to do what they want. The difference is that Christian's desire is no longer to sleep with random people, murder people that cut them off in traffic etc. Rather, the desire of a Christian's heart is God. We are completely free to taste God.

If your preaching doesn't result in the charge "Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?" (Romans 6:1), it might not be Gospel. If your preaching isn't so saturated with grace and freedom that natural man hears that he is free to sin, then you may be too legalistic.

Reformed one, I wish this idea wasn't outside of mainstream Christianity! I'd love to tell every brother/sister who's not enjoying their status as a child of God to know just how free that are!! It's liberating. Liberating us to sin? NO! Liberating us to worship and praise God with ALL of our hearts, holding back nothing. Free from the guilt of what we did the week leading up to Sunday. Free from the guilt over the things we must change in our lives. Over course we'll eventually make those changes, if we are truly God's children! 


Just yesterday I was talking with someone dear to me (not Lau..) about what I wrote in this blog, and their response was "we are free, with reservations..." OUCH!!! Like I've said, that's not freedom, just a different kind of bondage!

What my friend may be thinking, however, is that with freedom comes responsibility. Peter says "live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God." Kind of a harsh way of putting it, but of course he is urging us to use our freedom wisely.

Gervis, thanks for the beautiful image! I've never actually seen a comment like that before, cool!
Rita, yep, that's was grace is all about. If there were strings attached it wouldn't truly be grace! 
Aaron, freedom came with a price, one we don't have to pay. Amen!! 
Greta, thanks for that poignant verse, love it!
Eckertman, freedom is a state of mind and more. It's reality for the born-again believer!! :-)

Jam, I love your statement about the paradox about becoming "both less concerned and more concerned about his sin". That's a perfect way of putting it! The difference is in the way we feel concern -- from one of nagging fear over the possibility of rejection by God to one of maintaining a relationship, where neither party is ever going anywhere, kind of like your relationship with your parent(s) or kid(s) - related for life, eternal life!

Thanks again for the feedback folks! I love that so many recognize this great freedom, and I'm glad that I have been shouted down as a heretic!! (LOL)

JR, my friend! Thank you for your colorful (literally!) reply!! (It looks like it took some of your valuable time to produce!) Yes, I asked for feedback on whether or not I was crossing the line in proposing that sin and law were abolished for the believer in Christ. The majority seems to have weighed in on the side of radical freedom thus far, praise God!  As for your input, I certainly appreciate it and have read over it NLT 3 times to be sure I understand your point. I think that I have it, and having done a little research, I may have a reply which answers all 5 of your points.

"The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us... It must be understood of the ceremonial law, the hand-writing of ordinances, the ceremonial institutions or the law of commandments contained in ordinances (Eph. 2:15), which was a yoke to the Jews and a partition-wall to the Gentiles. The Lord Jesus took it out of the way, nailed it to his cross; that is, disannulled the obligation of it, that all might see and be satisfied that it was no more binding."

Henry, Matthew. "Commentary on Colossians 2." Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible. Blue Letter Bible. 01 Mar 1996. 22 Jul 2007.
<http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Col/Col002.html>.

....and...

"the law of commandments contained in ordinances." "The handwriting" (alluding to the Decalogue, the representative of the law, written by the hand of God) is the whole law, the obligatory bond, under which all lay;" "Not only was the law against us by its demands, but also an adversary to us by its accusations"

Jamieson, Robert; A.R. Fausset; and David Brown. "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Colossians." Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Blue Letter Bible. 19 Feb 2000. 22 Jul 2007.
<http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Col/Col002.html>.

JR, if my reply above is confusing at all please feel free to post again. I look forward to dialoguing with you! ~mike

I put together an answer to JR's comment, but I got sidetracked and couldn't post it before now. I agree with Mike's response; it's very much along the lines of what I was thinking. For what it's worth, here is my comment. 

I think that we should compare the following Scriptures:

The entire letters of Ephesians and Colossians parallel each other in numerous places, as is clear from simply scanning them. It seems to me (and other commentators) that the particular passages I've quoted from these two letters are parallel to one another. While Colossians talks about the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" being nailed to the cross, Ephesians talks about "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" being abolished in Jesus' flesh ("ordinances" is sometimes translated "decrees" in other versions, but it is the same Greek word in both passages). While there's a clear theme of Jew and Gentile being reconciled to one another that is in the Ephesians passage but is not in Colossians passage, both passages talk about God and sinners being reconciled in Jesus through the cross by taking away "that which was against us/that which was contrary to us/the enmity," i.e., the Law. The Romans passage talks about the believer being "dead to the Law/delivered from the Law" by "the body of Christ" so that he "should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter," where "the letter" refers to the Old Covenant, i.e., the Law (see also Romans 2:25-29, 2 Corinthians 3).

The question about the relationship of a person to the Law is answered by clarifying whether we are talking about "in Christ" or "in the world." Outside of Christ, a person is under the Law and is therefore under condemnation because he is a sinner. But, those who are in Christ "are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14) and have "no condemnation" (Romans 8:1). This is why Paul calls circumcision (a commandment of the Law) irrelevant in Christ and says

Great post Mike!  Dontcha just love how people get all kindsa mixed up confusing things that pertain to our standing before God (i.e. "positional" aspects) with things that pertain to us amongst humanity (i.e. "practical" aspects)?  This is where 99% of the debates and "vehement discussions" come from - confusing the things that are spoken positionally with those that are practically observable.

As for freedom, I don't remember off the top of my head whether you read my post Freedom and Independence or not, but this and that are good complements for each other.

So often we're like a caged animal at the zoo but with the door to the cage unlocked: we just see the bars and assume we're locked in (much like as we see our sins and assume we're in bondage to them still), but we never go over and try to push the door open.  If we did, we might be surprised at the results! :)

Norm, I didn't see a response to your question about Acts 5:1-11 (if there was and I just didn't see it, forgive me).  With Ananias and Saphirra -- assuming their faith was genuine to begin with -- I'm certain they were still saved individuals, even though they contrived such a foolish and needless sin against the Holy Spirit and subsequently received a temporal judgement for that sin.  I've always seen it as a disciplinary action in response to their sin more for the benefit of the rest of the church than for them.  Many people are so caught up in this mindset that losing one's life is such a bad thing that can happen, but it's not so for the Christian -- to live may be Christ, but to die is gain as absent from the body equals present with the Lord.  And while the display put on by A&S is truly a self-serving and heinous display of flesh contaminating the spirit, the worst thing that could happen to them was not death.

It seems as though the "written code" cancelled in the Colossians passage ("the handwriting of ordinances against us" in KJV, "the certificate of debt" in NASB) refers to the penalties legislated against the sins we have committed.  I really like the way NASB puts it -- "certificate of debt" -- speaking of the Mosaic requirements for punishments for specific acts of sin.

We still reap spiritual consequences and disciplining when we sin, and we still reap natural, legal and interpersonal consequences when we sin.  We just no longer are stoned to death for adultery or disrespecting our parents...i.e. the Mosaic punishments no longer apply.  The unfortunate thing is that many people mistakenly interpret this withdrawal of Mosaic penalty as God's allowance (or worse, assent or even approval) of what they're doing, and therefore think they've received divine permission to continue living in active sin.

Honestly, I think if people really understood that God graciously not having us still reap the penalties of the Mosaic system is not a permission to continue sinning, most Calvinists and "keep on working" believers would simply disappear, since most often those religious thoughts get most of their thrust from coming against those living in sinful lives, and without it they don't really have much energy left (from all that working and working, no doubt).

/\___  There it is.  If we believe it, and seek to daily do it, we shall also reap it.  :)

Jesus satisfied the Father and took away sin: one Man, one sacrifice, once for ALL!  As far as God is concerned, sin has been dealt with.  That's the way God sees it.  I don't see it that way..I still see my sins (plural).  I need to live by faith - nor sight!

We are now a NEW creation..ALL things are NEW.  We are called to live by faith.  Faith requires a relationship and intimate communion.  As we grow in our new relationship we begin to think more like God and even when we don't understand fully, we can rest in what God has said and determined because we can trust in Him and what He says, sees and thinks.  THAT is living by faith!

Now here's the paradox..what is not of faith is sin.  Hmmm?

PS - Factor in I Jn. 1:7-9 into all this and notice the difference between SIN and sins (plural)

I thought that when Mike was talking about freedom being "uncomfortable" it was more like the discomfort a man who has been in jail all his life feels when he is let out, like the old guy in "The Shawshank Redemption" who can't take the "outside" (his term) when he's paroled after 50 years. I have in mind Galatians 3:15-5:1, which talks about us being "held captive under the law"---being a slave to "the elementary principles of the world"---until being set free by the Son in order to receive "adoption as sons." All of us to some degree feel comfortable within the walls and following the rules, but this is a kind of comfort that corresponds to the fear that belongs to slaves. "Walking by the Spirit" as a "slave of righteousness" takes some getting used to, since this type of "slavery" is altogether different from being a "slave to sin"/"captive under the law." (Romans 8:15).

Blessed freedom indeed! Burdens gone! It continues to bless and bless my life! 

Freedom is a scary thing from a merely human viewpoint (We ask - "What will people do with total freedom?"), but it wasn't at all scary for our Creator, Redeemer and Savior!

Christ Jesus knows that the freedom He has given us (because of His great love and sacrifice) will only lead us to be like Him in the end! 

We may stumble and fall a few times along the path as we learn to walk in freedom, but in the end we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is! Praise God!

Hi everyone.
This is all new to me, and I have never participated in something like this before, but I have found this very interesting to read.  Most everyone has been voicing much the same ideas from various points. 

The freedom we have been given in Christ is complete, there is nothing we can do to add to it.  God does not see our filthy rags but Christ's righteousness when he looks upon us.  Therefore we are a new creation, created for good works.  We truly can't earn anything through our good works, but our response to the freedom is to love each other and those around us as Christ loved us. 

Anyway, I for one am trying to follow Peter out of the boat to follow Christ.  My freedom often places me in places that I find uncomfortable and forces me to rely upon Christ for strength in service.

This has been a very interesting read, and I look forward to reading more.
yours in Chirst
Glenn

You know the quote by (Saint) Thomas Aquinas as saying something along the lines of "if you want to know/do God's will, simply do two things: (1) love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and (2) do whatever you want."   Really cleared up for me what you were trying to say Mike. At first glance when I read that quote I thought "does he mean you can go around killing people and still be close to the Lord?" Then I realized that part 2 is conditional and directly related to us actually doing part 1.  If we Love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength -- then we won't choose to deliberately act sinfully.  But we will choose to do that which does glorify God and if we make a mistake or mess up -- It is of no consquence because our minds and hearts were in the right place to begin with  -- LOVING GOD, in other words the sin was not done with malice.  Otherwise we would not be fulling part 1 of the quote and Loving God.

Am I getting it now?

JJ, you're ready to be a theologian!!! You know, people go to church FOR YEARS and never get what you just wrote! I should know, I did. Seriously dude, you really get it!

Ain't it great to be free?! 

It is a hard concept to grasp.

Did Jesus forgive all of my sins or just the ones I could ask forgiveness for?

Does He really love me unconditionally?  Or do I still have a responsibility to return His love?

Is grace really free or should I feel guilty that I can not live up to God's Holy Standards?

Most people can not understand that when Jesus died for their sins He died for their future sins not just the ones up to the point of conversion.  We are already seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.  We already have an inheritance undefiled, incorruptible that fades not away reserved in heaven for me. It is not contingent upon how well I behave.  If I am in faithfulness He remains faithful for the Lord can not deny Himself. For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him. By grace have you been saved through faith and that not of yourself it is the gift of God.   It is by faith, we are saved by faith.  Man wants to say faith and....faith and baptism, faith and works, faith and holiness, but not realizing that genuine faith will result in all of the following that I just listed.   Anyway, I will quit preaching now and let you get back to doing whatever it was you are doing.

Mike,

It has been a long time brother!  I see your blogs are going as strong as ever.  Thats great.

Over a year ago I left a couple of comments on here and really enojoyed reading this blog.

Since then I have continued to struggle with learning about our faith and filtering out what the church says from what the bible actually says.

So now I have come to a difficult position in my understanding (not that I can really fully undertand, I am still new at this) of God's True Nature...

Knowing what we do about God's nature and his Love and Mercy and remembering what Jesus said in Matthew 5:

43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

 46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

 47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

SO my question to you is: Do you think God holds us accountable for the mistakes we make in our lives? 

Also, do you think that we must love God before he loves us, or does he love us unconditionally?

If he loves us unconditionally, why is it that he will only give salvation to those who confess with their mouth and beleive in their heart that Jesus is their savior? Is that unconditionally?

Isn't that requiring us to love him before he loves us? Or requiring us to love him, because he loved us?

I have been searching through the scripture and this is a very complicated and intricate issue. And many places in scripture appear to contradict one another. However, I don't believe that an inerrant bible can contradict itself, only that our understanding of its meaning can be contradictory.  Complex as it may appear, I think the answer may be much more simple than it appears, but many people will likely be unwilling to see that answer. 

What do you think?

JJ 

Mike,

Thanks for the note and your answers.

The reason I bring this issue up is that it seems closely related to the issue of real Freedom.

While studying the issues I asked about above, I came across additional questions, and what I think are some answer as well.

In Acts 28:26-28: Paul quotes Isaiah saying "26" 'Go to this people and say,
   "You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
      you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."
 27For this people's heart has become calloused;
      they hardly hear with their ears,
      and they have closed their eyes.
   Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
      hear with their ears,
      understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 

28"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

It is obvious to me that many of us today still fit the description above, even though we call ourselves Christians.

When Paul and Isaiah say "they will listen".  That is a declarative statment of fact, stating that all Gentiles will receive the salvation of God. In fact I looked this up and the contextual plural meaning of Gentile in this instance actually means, "the rest of mankind" in distinction from Israel or the Jews.  That's an Awesome and powerful statement that really means something.

Also I came across the following scripture that also seems to underscore this point even more plainly:

Luke 3:6: As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
   "A voice of one calling in the desert,
   'Prepare the way for the Lord,
      make straight paths for him.
 5Every valley shall be filled in,
      every mountain and hill made low.
   The crooked roads shall become straight,
      the rough ways smooth.
 6And all mankind will see God's salvation.' "

Here it is again, so I had to look and find out does "All" mean "All" or does this mean "Some of all kinds?"

Here is what I found: Strongs number 3956 (pas) is an adjective, that when it is used with a noun and without an article (a, an, the) means (as in this instance): Every, Everyone (man), everything.  When "pas" or "All" is used as it is in this instance it does actually mean ALL.

So then I have to ask "How can this be?"  We all know that not ALL people accept Christ before their death. Therefore conventional Christian wisdom tells us that not ALL people will be Saved before they die.

So then the following Scriptures pop into my mind: 1 Peter 3:19

19through whom also he (Jesus) went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Then Luke 17:26: "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

So do you think it is likely that Jesus will also preach once again "to the spirits who are in prison" after the coming of the Son of Man? He did it once, why not twice?

I ask this because I am having a difficult time finding any scripture that suggests that Jesus couldn't or wouldn't come back to preach to those spirits after they have been dealt a healthy dose of justice for their Sins. In fact, in light of the perfect nature of Christ and what Jesus tells us about perfect Love in Matt 5:43-48, it seems most likely that he would.

Plainly asked: Can or will persons be saved after Death? Didn't Christ clearly demonstrate to us that he has power over death? 

What do you think? 

JJ   

JJ, I honestly can't say for sure. I suppose it is possible, but you are entering the realm of supposition. Since the bible isn't clear on this, it is far better to go with what we know. And that is the importance of making use of the time we have now to surrender our lives and trust our Savior, and urge those we come in contact with to do so as well. The verse that came to mind as I read your post was, "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment", Heb. 9:27.This doen't appear to leave much room to post-death evangelism.

I might also ask, have you taken your questions to Dr W? (As I recall you are a member of his church, right?)

Tis is specifically to JJ. - You may want to read my blog on "Willful Sin".   Hebrews chapters 6 and 10 warns us of willful sin and what happens when it is committed.   Also when Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.  He means now.  He came to this earth to set the captives free.  When He died the veil in the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were broken apart and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which were dead arose and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.  Matthew chapter 27/50-53.  AS I see it, Jesus did everything to free those who were bound up by sin prior to His coming to earth, even those who were already dead.  He gave everyone a chance to repent before they died.  Now, according to Hebrews chapter 9/27, it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement. 

Some may disagree with me on the subject of willful sin.  I only quote the scriptures.  We are called to repent from ALL unrighteousness.  We are called to Holiness and Purity before we die.  We cannot get into heaven unless we are pure and Holy.  Read the book of Revelations.  Read 1 John.   After we die we cannot make a decision to choose between good or evil.  Jesus sent the Holy Spirit back to earth after He died to help us be over-comers of our sinful nature.  I have not read anywhere in the scriptures where it says we cannot be perfect, or that we are not perfect.  This is a cliche' that I hear all the time from those who choose to not believe the truth about Holiness and Perfection. We must be born-again to enter into the Kingdom of heaven.  

Forgive the long response Mike,  I tried to shorten it.  I pray that it does on seem that I am being redundant.  Not to debate, just to speculate on righteousness.

Shalom to my my friend.

Mike,

Yea, I used to go to ECC with Pastor W, but we moved to Omaha, about a year ago. I don't think he blogs much anymore, not sure though.  I would love to hear his thoughts though. He is one smart guy. Thought me everything I know about studying, although I am sure he would say I am flawed in my current thinking...lol.  Maybe I am, who knows, a year from now I may have learned more and understood more, in fact I am sure I will have.

Your right, and I agree with you that my question/answer is supposition. But, so is alot of our religion. The Book of Revelations clearly tells us that God has withheld information from us, that was revealed to John.  I also agree with you that we are called to surrender our lives now while we are alive.  No question about that.  

But one of the things I am having a hard time understanding is the concept of judgment.  It is often referred to as though it is only possible that judgment means eternal torment, torture or complete separation from God for ever.  Couldn't it be possible that the punishment fits the crime? Afterall isn't that what Justice means? 

I guess I find it very conflicting with the character of God as he has revealed it to us in the bible.  Afterall why would God love us differently than he commanded us to love him and others?  

That being said, I think there is no question that if we don't accept Jesus while we are alive, We WILL face Judgment.  I also believe those people WILL go to hell.  I am not so sure however, that they must remain in Hell for Eternity.  Afterall, being held accountable for Eternity for one mistake made in the very brief time we are alive seems like a whole lot of overkill, not Justice....

Rev 20:12-13 says: "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done."

The above scripture clearly indicates that God's judgment is proportional, according to the offense.  If that is true, it seems we should have to accept that the judged's time in the eternal fire is also proportional. Otherwise, there is no difference in the sentence, like the scripture above indicates.

I also agree with ihsallthetime that we must be pure and holy before we can get into Heaven and the only way we can do that is by accepting Christ.  So, if a person's spirit is aware enough and cognizent enough to feel the torment of judgment, why couldn't their spirit repent, after their time in the fire was complete?  I just wonder if the modern church isn't taking too narrow of a view of how loving and how merciful our God really is.  

It brings to mind: 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

On a historical note: This view was one that was taught by theologians in early Christianity.  In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Cesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) believed that all people would eventually be saved through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. 

The other two theological schools, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost. Unforetunately, the Roman School of thought obviously was much more publicized, tought and promelgated due to the overwhelming power and influence of the Roman Empire/church at the time...

Pastor W always told me that we could learn alot from early Christianity and the early church fathers. 

It is interesting to me that the idea of eternal torment never really took hold or was taught until St. Augustine around 386 AD.  And afterall it does make sense that he would want/need there to be the concept of eternal torment included in his theology.  How else could Rome keep control over their citizens?  Fear.  True Freedom would not have been a concept that went well with administering the worlds largest empire.

I am not saying I am right about this, in fact I am probably more confused that when I started looking into it, but inerrancy means there has to be consistency. And one scripture can't be right and another be wrong. To me eternal punishment does not seem to be consistent with never ending love.

1 John 4:18 says: 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Do you think some people turn to Christ out of fear of eternal punishment?

I beleive the New testament only says the words eternal punishment 1 time in Matt 25:46.  Where it says: 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The greek word for punishment is "kolasis" and it has three possible meanings: correction, punishment, penalty

Vines Expository Dictionary states:

Punishment:

To me it seems that spreading the good news of Christ would be much easier and much more appealing to many more people if they heard that God does Love you and God does command higher standards for your life and that you should accept Christ now and if you do you will recieve a reward in Heaven for being obedient. But if you choose not to love him now, he knows that you will love him eventually and you will ultimately come to the point of acceptance.  As opposed to the conventional view of "You better Love him and accept him or he will throw you into a burning pit of fire". 

It seems to me that those who have not heard or understood the truth will likely not be consigned to eternal death. Since they have not sinned willfully.

Sorry for rambling, I am just still trying to make sense of these appearent contradictions. I guess I am just thinking that it may be better to error on the side of believing God is more loving than I can imagine, rather than as him being less loving than I can imagine... 

Cheers and God Bless

JJ

"Afterall, being held accountable for Eternity for one mistake made in the very brief time we are alive seems like a whole lot of overkill, not Justice...."

JJ, this is YOUR concept of justice, not God's. (I may have a different concept of justice and fairness, but in the end it's God's that matters, ours are irrelevant.)  I've had to remind myself often, when I read something in scripture that is clear, yet seems incongruent with the love of God, that God is sovereign, his word matters, not my opinion.

"Do you think some people turn to Christ out of fear of eternal punishment?"

Probably. But they would immediately discover the LOVE of Christ, wouldn't they? Jesus, in whom the fullness of God dwelled, died a humiliating and excruciating death FOR THEM. To discover that you DESERVE hell, then to realize you have been GIVEN life, I would expect that would immediately turn the fear to the sweetest relief, and then joy! To live in fear is to NOT know your Savior!! (Psalm 34:4)

"But if you choose not to love him now, he knows that you will love him eventually and you will ultimately come to the point of acceptance."

Once again this is incredible supposition. You also said "I agree with you that my question/answer is supposition. But, so is alot of our religion." NOT to this degree! This is taking risks with eternity, or if you are delivering this message to the unsaved, encouraging THEM to risk eternal torture. (Not that God is the torturer, but that eternity w/o God, from whom everything good comes, has to be torture!) We suppose little. We extrapolate MUCH. But God gives us all the information we need to start out on the right track. And if we are careful (wise), we will not stray from that track (truth). Sorry if this is confusing!

"It seems to me that those who have not heard or understood the truth will likely not be consigned to eternal death. Since they have not sinned willfully."

I blogged about this here: "More compassionate than God".  Again we must be careful NOT to think that we are more compassionate than God!!!!

Mike, 

The bible tells us that God is able to do immeasureably more than we can imagine.  All I am saying is that I think the Bible is right.  He will do more than I can imagine. And why would it be a bad thing if those who were judged were given a chance to accept Christ after they had paid a price for their sin?  

Eph 3:20: Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

I guess I disagree that being merciful, after judgment is inconsistent with the character or Will of God, See some of the scriptures below.   

1 Thessalonians 4:3
It is God's will that you should be sanctified... 

Jeremiah 3:12
Go, proclaim this message toward the north: " 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD, 'I will frown on you no longer, for I am merciful,' declares the LORD, 'I will not be angry forever.

Daniel 9:9
The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him;

Jude:

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

James 2:

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

VInes defines Merciful as:

Merciful (Adjective, and Verb, to Be), Mercy (Noun, and Verb, to Have, Etc.):

"pitiful, compassionate for the ills of others," a stronger term than No. 1 (akin to A, No. 2), is used twice in Luk 6:36, "merciful" (of the character of God, to be expressed in His people); Jam 5:11, RV, "merciful," AV, "of tender mercy."

How could a Merciful God not have compassion, on a Spirit that has repented and served the sentence God has given according to what they have done. 

I guess the most singular point of disagreement on this issue is really whether or not the bible says that a person must accept Christ before they die... Don't get me wrong, there is no question that we are called to accept Christ while we are alive or we will be judged and punished.

Does any scripture actually say that we MUST accept Christ before death and or that the only opportunity we will have is while we are alive? I have not been able to find it, and I have been searching honestly. I would like to study it/them because as you said this is important.

1 Cor 15:20:But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

How can God be all in all, if there are people without God in eternal Hell?

Also:

Rev 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

Now, I think it is undeniable that when Heaven is on Earth (as in Rev22:17) we can all agree that the final judgment has taken place.  

So who is the Spirit and all of the beleivers (the church) talking to when they invite people to take the free gift of life?

Cheers and God Bless

JJ

 PS I agree with your second point, that is true.

 Also, Just to be clear, I don't believe in the doctrine of universal salvation, I believe there is much flawed with many of the things they say, especially in regard to the Deity of Christ. A quick study of John 1:1 and Gen 1:1 will highlight their error.  

LOVE those lyrics, Juanita! Thanks for posting them. You know, of ALL the blogs I've written, THIS is among my favorite. I'm so glad you found this particular one. Ah, it is so good to be FREE!

Megan, cool! Facebook is good for something, lol!! :-)

Ah, one of the most beautiful comments I've ever received...thank you, sister. :-)  The scripture says what it says, all means all. I believe it w/all my heart. I believe God has offered you the peace you have desperately needed, and I pray you receive it. :-)

Sheree, what an interesting comment! Hmmm, thinking about how to respond...

My first thought was, paradoxically, the person living entirely in the freedom Christ bought for them is living righteously! But you see, that righteousness isn't a living after the law, it's a living for Christ!

(I know what you were thinking when you read the blog. It's a common reaction among "good" Christians, when it is asserted that we're no longer "under the law." I believe Paul spoke to your objections at length in the book of Romans, particularly chs. 6-8. May I suggest a good commentary to go along with the inspired text? I don't have time to do Paul's master work concerning the law and our life as Christians justice!)

Just for clarity they took my friendship and kindness and twisted into what they wanted it to be, and when i told them no they got offended however this is a person that God says He wants delivered from this abomination, but if they are living in the freedom of Christ why would God want them to be delivered, and does He have me literally walking in the lair of the devil to get this person, if they are free to live this way?  Get upset, complain, mock make all kinds of jesters but i need you to answer me.

Sheree, clearly they are not living in God's freedom if they are treating you like that. I am sorry to hear this. Freedom in Christ does not mean we are free to treat people badly. 

The way I now see it, our freedom is like this. We can live any way we want!! Except, our new relationship w/God, and the Holy Spirit working inside of us, CHANGE our wants. So instead of pleasing us, sinful behavior now makes us feel bad. And the closer we are to God, the stronger our dislike of what we know as sin! The important thing is, God gives us room to grow in our relationship w/him, rather than condemn us for our missteps and misunderstandings. The father welcomed the prodigal son w/open arms, as God welcomes us back.

Does that help?  Feel free to message me if you'd like, Sheree!

[star!]

Yes Mike, ALL sin was done away with.

Sin is no longer an issue, even for the un-saved.

The only way to heaven is having our names written in the Book of Life, and the only ones going to hell are those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life. Our names are placed there by submitting to Christ as Lord and master, and repenting (to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.)

 There are no sinners, because HE wiped all sin away, there are only the saved and un-saved.

We can not earn our way to heaven, we can't be perfect enough by not sinning, because HE does not see the sin.

He wants us to not "sin" because the guilt we receive in the flesh will eventually drive us to turning from Him. That is why HE gave us the Holy Spirit, to lead and guide us into His will. The Holy Spirit will change us, but from the heart, He will put the desire in us not to lie, cheat, live as homo-sexual, abortionist,wife beaters, and any other godless activity.

It is ALL from the heart, not the flesh.

All heart...I like that, Gary! And as I see it, it's also more about fruit than sin(lessness). Thanks for your comment!

Willy, thanks for the star! I pray you're savoring this delicious freedom along w/me!