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| Is Christianity Dying in America? |
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The April 4 issue of Newsweek magazine includes a thought-provoking article entitled " The End of Christian America," based on the recent poll showing a decline in the percentage of Americans who claim to be Christians. Certainly an important issue for all Christian leaders to ponder. Such a study raises many questions. Are Christians leaving the faith, or is Christianity just losing its perpetualness? Are younger generations choosing against the Faith? If so, who or what is to blame, and what can be done to reverse the trend? A complex issue. One that no single answer will properly address. Perhaps one of far too much depth for a blog to even begin to touch. Nonetheless, in hopes of opening some dialogue . . . First, let me acknowledge that am a Christian. Was baptized into a Baptist church at age 8, hold a seminary degree from a Baptist seminary, and have remained actively involved in church my entire life. I worship the Creator of the universe. I believe in the virgin birth and the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. And I am a witness to the working of the Holy Spirit among us all everyday. Now, back to the topic . . . "Of course the church is losing ground," we say. "Look at the deteriorating culture around us!" Wait! Let's stop there for a moment and shift direction. Let's examine instead the culture within us. Without meaning to oversimplify, I think the main reason Christianity is losing support is found within its own walls. And I do not fear that true Christianity will be lost. Rather I see a thread, a remnant, which although sometimes very small, will survive throughout history. I think, however, we in our churches may be misdefining Christianity. The word "Christian" means "Christ follower," and every Christian claims to be just that. But are we really? Or without realizing it, have we become "subculture followers?" In my own observations, I perceive that American Christianity has largely become a subculture, dangerously indistinguishable from "Christ following" because the subculture is filled with Jesus lingo and Scripture quoting (albeit more selective than we realize), and we do not recognize the difference. What is a Subculture?
A subculture is a group of people with some factor of commonality (religion, race, ethnicity, etc.), which has developed its own cultural world within the larger culture. The subculture may have its own form of music, dress, lingo, literature, art, politics, worldview, expected behaviors, and revered leaders, separate from those of the culture around it.
For example, when I was teaching high school I witnessed a subculture of young black males, which said to its followers that education and authority were for white people and they would not be a part of it. There was one acceptable type of music, one acceptable type of dress, a special vocabulary, and an expected loyalty to the group ideology. Then there's the American gay subculture, which says to those with same-sex orientations that they must be imbibers and drug users, that promiscuity is permissable, and that religion is meaningless. An especially dangerous message considering the church offers these people no alternative. There are the many subcultures adopted by today's youth. Youth place themselves into the subculture of their choosing, based on the larger subculture idea that they have to be a part of a subgroup. They identify themselves as hip-hop, emo, goth, punk, etc., and their choice dictates how they dress, how they wear their hair, what music they enjoy, and their attitude toward life. There is something natural about subcultures. It seems to be human nature to group ourselves and to adopt the world views of those with whom we surround ourselves; but it can also be dangerous, if we are unaware of the group dynamic and have given our hearts and minds over to the collective mind of the subculture. Although is is good for young black males to befriend and support each other, it limits their future when they accept that to be black means to defy authority and to rebel against education. It also defies reason. Should one young black man choose to pursue a top education, or to listen to country music, or not to wear sagging pants, does he then cease to be black? Of course not, and the fallacy of the group thinking is a detriment to the young man's development. No matter what music or dress he prefers, he is still a young black man. What Does This Have to Do with Christianity? American Christians too have fallen into a subculture. We are no longer just "followers of Christ" but followers of a group dynamic that we have come to believe is synonymous with God Himself. Our group ideology tells us how we must vote, how we must interpret the Bible . . . It may tell us we have to boycott Disney or K-Mart or Proctor & Gamble (this one was a hoax btw) . . . It has its own lingo, its own music industry, its own set of rules for what we all must think. And we are convinced by the group that all this ideology comes straight from God. The clear implication from our subculture is "if you dress like us, talk like us, believe like us, etc., you can be a Christian." Although it is good to assemble ourselves together for worship and for fellowship, this subculture is a dangerous phenomenon. The Bible clearly states: 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Does this mean if someone is a registered Democrat, or takes his children to Disney World, or listens to pop music, he has not lost his Christianity? Yes, true Christianity is not dictated by human groups. It is a good first step just to realize that the subculture exists and that we live in it. Can we identify the leaders of our "pack"? Can we distinguish at what points we are following Christ and at what points we may be following man? Why do we follow subculture leaders? We want direction. We trust their judgments. We believe their interpretations. It is good to listen to our leaders, but with discernent, realizing that every human being is fallible, and that none, no not one, gets everything right. Remember Paul's rebuke to the Corinthians that they were not be followers of any man, but of Christ: 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apol'los," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? Can We Do Anything to Reverse this Trend?
So, let's get back to the issue of Christianity dying in America. Is there anything we can do to reverse this trend? Unfortunately there is no magic formula. There is no perfect set of rules that if compiled will draw all Americans to the Faith. Nonetheless if we seek to understand how we got here, and what might be behind the trend, there may be some lessons to learn. 100 years ago Paul Moore Strayer "believed the churches were failing to reach the young people . . . and merely condemning vice would do nothing to reverse the situation." ( Helen Barrett Montgomery, p. 190). Are we not in much the same spot today? The younger generation sees our hypocrisy and our ignorance about important social issues. They see our history of mistakes and our resistance to admitting them. The younger generation longs for relevance. I submit that a subculture develops in an attempt to preserve. We huddle together in an attempt to keep alive what we perceive Christianity to be. But we have lost the original vision. We are fighting peripheral fights and have lost focus on what it might really mean to be a "Christ follower." We must seek that original vision. Maybe a difficult task, as it must necessarily be sought apart from the "herd." We must look beyond our church programs, our divisive theologies, our judgment of those we deem unbelievers, and the guidance of our trusted leaders; and pursue the mind of Christ Himself. Read through the Bible entire books at a time, alone. Turn off the tv, the computer, the radio, and sit alone with God, with no time constraints, pleading for discernment, surrendering totally to His direction, and basking in the aura of His presence. As we become true Christ followers, we will change, as will others' perceptions of us, and people will be drawn into His presence. We will learn to love our fellowman, not in empty words, but in truth. We will seek God's face in our decision-making and will analyze tough issues responsibly and thoroughly. We will spend more time praying than talking about prayer, and worship likewise. We will share our faith because it is genuine and alive, and we can't help but share it; not a canned memorized speech that turns others away. The bad news: The subculture we call Christianity may indeed die in America during this century, along with my generation. The good news: If God is real (and He is), we do not have to worry about the extinction of true Christianity. What goes extinct will not be God. Nor His continued interaction with His creation. There will remain, we can be sure, a remnant of true Christian faith. Will it bear any resemblance to what we are doing today? 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. |
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| To add a comment to "Is Christianity Dying in America?" |
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| April 08, 2009 |
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| Serious and deep subject Kathy for sure...as our culture changes with society due to many aspects I do believe Christianity is not the same as it was. Alot of children and young adults today have never been in a church or taught about God. Do we blame them for how they end up? Who do we point the finger at? I know from working around mixed cultures at the last few jobs different people worship other things and it was hard for me to deal with this knowing the person sitting next to me worshiped a Budah or was an athiest. I fear where our Country is headed and to where it's already began to shift with the word "socialism" in the news daily now.
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| April 08, 2009 |
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This is an awesome blog. I can only read so much at a time and I'm bookmarking it so I can further read into it tomorrow. I just got done preaching, rather the Lord came through me. I'm known to preach loud from time to time but I've never been this loud at any time in my life. The message was about how the lost are bound to sin and God's children have been set free of the power of sin. The thing is this: the Christian folks I talk to seem like they don't want to talk about God. The Christian folks I talk to seem to be lacking in knowledge of the Bible when compaired to how long they've been saved. So. People aren't perfect. The thing that does the kicking is the fact that while I watch the church act as if it's in bondage I see pure atheists living lives closer to holiness than many children of God. Where many Christians don't want to talk about God I have deep scripture based conversations with atheists online all the time. They know the Bible and one guy, if he'd get saved, would make an awesome preacher because his understanding of the word. It amazes me. Why aren't more Christians rooted like this. WE are the image of Jesus in this world but we look not a thing like it. We aren't bound to sin. We've been set free. We can say no to it. We just choose to partake in the world as if He doesn't exist. |
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| April 08, 2009 |
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| Kathy.. really really good post. Will need to re-read a couple times and digest first. :) |
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| April 08, 2009 |
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Lynne, thank you for your comments! You ask some good questions. I stopped on the way home this evening for Japanese take-out and was surprised to hear my favorite Christian radio station playing, right there with the Buddha sitting on the counter! Aroused my curiosity, but I didn't ask any questions.
Hopefully we will not get stuck on "Who can be blame?" but will quickly move on to "How can we reach the youth?" So many questions, so few answers! :)
Tyler, it sounds like you were fired up tonight! Your comment reminded me of a quote atributed to Ghandi about Christianity: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” What a powerful statement!
Thank you, Carol! I love seeing your face!! |
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| April 08, 2009 |
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This is so interesting to me because of so many of the conversations we've had these past years. I'm still trying to clear my definition blockage of how to define Christian. Along a different line, I was reading today that there are between 60 to 80 million Christians in China, and that the mainline churches only account for apx 10 % of that number. I'm starting to think, after reading that and a few other articles that the newspapers report of the demise of Christianity in America may be grossly miss-reported. Just talking to so many of the students at Indiana State, I am finding many more of them claim to be Christians than you may think. Now as to their level of spirituality, well that is a whole different topic. I'm finding myself being called to love them where their at, and be who I am in the midst of them. Sorry for the length, but it's an interesting subject, even if I think the papers are wrong. Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, " the reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"? |
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| April 08, 2009 |
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"We do not have to worry about the extinction of true Christianity." I'm reminded of someplace in the book of Acts where Gamaliel, in talking about Peter and the other apostles, makes the comment "Leave these men alone. If their cause is of human origin, it will soon die. If it's of God there's nothing you can do to stop it. You'll just be fighting against God." (Or something like that.)
I strongly believe that in 2009 our God will continue to move through the remnant and all the powers of hell will not be able to overcome Him. So whether our "numbers" grow or not, the cause of Christ will not perish from the earth!
Besides saying that, I want to say thanks Kathy for a thought-provoking blog. |
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| April 09, 2009 |
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I live in the UK, but we see the same trends here. I believe we need to seek to get to know God and Hiw will. So often we spend our time and energy on other things, often the same as unbelievers do, often things that aren't wrong in themselves, but become wrong because they take our attention away from God and His Kingdom, away from being His disciple. The first Christians transformed their society, and they didn't do it by beeing as like them as possible. They were so different that the political leaders saw them as a threat and started persecuting them, and in many countries it's still like that.
Jesus didn't try to be what people wanted him to be . a political leader who got rid of the Roman oppressors - he tried to do God's will. That was why he was crucified. And why he rose again and broke the power of death.
Quite a challenge. |
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| April 09, 2009 |
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| Church History Christianity began as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When it went to Athens, it became a philosophy. When it went to Rome, it became an organization. When it went to Europe, it became a culture. When it came to America, it became a business. (author unknown) Jude (from the Lockman’s Foundation Amplified Bible) “20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up [founded] on your most holy faith [make progress, rise like an edifice higher and higher], praying in the Holy Spirit; 21 guard {and} keep yourselves in the love of God; expect {and} patiently wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)-- [Who will bring you] unto life eternal. 22 and on some have mercy and compassion who waver {and} doubt. 23 [Strive to] save others, snatching [them] out of [the] fire; on others have pity [but] with fear, loathing even the garment spotted by the flesh {and} polluted by their sensuality." True Christians should be peculiar people of righteousness, peacefulness, and joyfulness. Jesus Other Yourself My understanding of Proverbs 3:5-6: Trust in the Lord with all my heart, and lean not on my own understanding or past experiences; in all my ways acknowledge Him (be thankful to/for God), and He (via the Holy Spirit) shall direct my thinking and doing. |
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| April 09, 2009 |
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Is Christianity dying in America??? I think the question should be, "Are we dying as Christians?"
The foundation of our faith does not rest in American politics and culture.. The foundation rest in our belief that Jesus died and rose again for US.....
I am appalled at what the media feeds us. Freedom of speech is a right of each and everyone of us and is used so efficiently by the devil. It feeds on our fears and doubts as to who and what we truly are. When our children gets this information (as fragile in mind as they are), they do not know which way to turn. It is up to each brother and sister who believes to continue to teach the basics of our faith to our kids. Jesus did not come to save America, He came to save the world....
I read the article in Newsweek and just sort of sat back and digested it for a while (still digesting). We survey everything from the taste of dog food to our beliefs, and after all of that where are we? Does it do any good? Do we really solve anything???
Survey this:
I believe in One God.
I believe in His Son, Jesus
I believe in His death and resurrection.
I believe He will come again. |
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| April 09, 2009 |
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Interesting blog Kathy.
It reminds me of a story I heard Lester Sumrall tell while watching a documentary on Smith Wigglesworth from a series entitled, "God's Generals".
Apparently Smith had taken Lester under his wing so-to-speak and they shared a lot of time together. Lester told of the very first time he went to Smith's house. He rang the doorbell and stood there waiting on someone to answer. As I recall, he says he was wearing a three piece suit, a top hat and he had an umbrella under one arm and a newspaper under the other. Well, when Smith opened the door Lester introduced himself and asked if he could come in. Smith's reply was, "Yes, you can come in but the newspaper has to stay outside!"
Smith was not moved by or even interested in what the world had to say. And he saw many, many powerful manifestations of God's power working in his life and in the lives of those he ministered to.
The media has an agenda and I truly and honestly believe that those that follow them are being systematically lied to. Anyone who is looking to worldly newspapers and worldly magazines as their main source of information, is one of the most uninformed people there are.
We don't need no stinking newspapers, we just need the Word of God.
MHO
Michael |
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| April 09, 2009 |
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Reb, you and I were posting at the same time last night. I always find it interesting how any number of Christians can read the same article (or blog, or Scripture) and have such different thoughts from it. Thank you for sharing your take on this article!
Dennis, I laughed as I read your comment, because I think there was actually a line in the article that reworded Twain's quote, very close to yours! You could have written the article!
Great reference, Barb, and powerful!
Ase, you bring up the entirely different issue of Christians blending into the larger culture. Fodder for another blog . . . Also an ianteresting point that you see the same trend in the UK.
Bill, I like your opening quote!
Mary, wow - you actually read the article!! Your make some good observations, and I agree that everything we read outside the subculture - like this Newsweek article - should be held suspect, just as what we pass around inside the subculture. I should have said that I don't necessarily accept that Christianity is dying in America. This blog is merely my reaction to what the article says, not to the legitimacy of the study. I appreciate your wisdom!
Michael, likewise, I agree that all media, even within the Christian subculture should be scutinized, not blindly accepted. As long as I live in this world, however, I want to be informed about what's happening in it, and I love my newspaper and radio news programs. The more informed we are and the broader scope of perspectives we understand, the better we are able to analyze and decipher what we read and hear. I agree though, there are times when I can't take any more "news," and I have to stop listening for a couple of days! |
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| April 09, 2009 |
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HE is growing me!! Every time I start fading, He increases!! I fear that the ones that are dying are the weak or the ones who do not really know Him...
What a mandate we have... to be a light.
Less of me...more of Him!!
Thanks, Kathy!! |
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| April 10, 2009 |
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| Kathy, you sound like a flower growing toward the sun! A beautiful picture! :) |
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| April 10, 2009 |
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Brilliant post...this is one that does need to be re-read a couple of times...so much is in it..=D
These days it is so easy for me to want to fall apart at how much we as a church, and in effect, nation are falling apart in several ways..
Can we reverse the trend?..I LOVED everything you wrote in the last section..(well, okay, the WHOLE blog, but that jumps out the most for me hehe)
I agree, The most....only, succesful formula is that there remain in any person, sub-culture, and world MORE of Him, and less of us..
This blog was completely on point, and its a blessing to read your posts..=) |
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| April 10, 2009 |
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| We need to be stronger,and let our light shine.. Be a loud Christian,who loves Christ.. Not a quiet Christian,not letting people know you are a Christian..Let's carry on Gods work... |
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| April 10, 2009 |
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| I see this issue coming from two different ways. One, Christians are failing in some important ways. According to one way of counting evangelical Christians, the divorce rate is slightly higher among them than the population in general. What does that say to people who aren't Christians? Who needs Christianity if the lives of Christians are just as much of a mess as non-Christians? What's the difference? Another example is the high percentage of evangelical Christians, particularly younger ones, who do not believe in absolute truth. A commenter above also mentioned the lack of Bible knowledge among Christians. So who are these people? They don't know their Bibles and they don't believe in absolute truth? From what basis do they consider themselves Christians? A blogger at Revelife (another Christian blogging community) noted that she heard someone telling dirty jokes to her companion right before worship, then participated in worship, seemingly getting into it fully. What incongruity! It seems like we are missing some serious things here, perhaps due to a fear of talking about sin ("that's so negative; it turns people off") or perhaps due to people being able to be comfortable in a subculture without really searching for God.
I said I see this issue coming from two different ways. The second way is related to the subculture of the Christian Right--many in the society at large are turned off by the judgmentalism of the Christian Right, and say, "If being a Christian means being a self-righteous, holier-than-thou jerk, I want nothing of it." |
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| April 10, 2009 |
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Kathy,
When I read that article too, I thought well here is even more proof of end times.
3:16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Our Christian founded country as a whole has become lukewarm, and now we are paying for it as a country. Then we ask why? We are trying to take Him out of our government and off our money system. We have taken God out of our schools. We have had the highest mortality rates due to abortion compared to any other country. Hollywood has made sin very popular, yet we continue to desensitize our spirits. Also we are a country that is highly educated and over stimulated. Sometimes the over educated reject God and exalt science, where as in the 3rd world countries you see major revivals and many miracles. We must be bold and not shy away even though our country as a whole and culture generally ridicules us.
Our churches have become very lukewarm, and we just can't seem to draw in the people as we should be during these times. These are very trying times in America right now, and God help us. There needs to be a revival in America soon, but it must start with each and every one of us in the church. Lord let it start with me, let me be a light into someone's soul.
8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
We must pray and fast for our country, churches and people all over. If you look around the end is drawing near, and we soldiers for Him must do our job.
Good blog Kathy!
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| April 11, 2009 |
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Tickets, thank you for taking the time to read and for being so kind! God has His hand on you. Blessings to you today, my friend!
Benne, I agree. True Christianity is very difficult to conceal!
Good points, J Lee! True Christianity should naturally draw people, not turn them off.
Reb, our subculture Christianity has indeed become lukewarm. We know all the right Jesus words to say to each other, and we even fool ourselves into believing words are what it's all about. If I were outside, that would not attract me either! |
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| April 11, 2009 |
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Has America ever truly been Christian? The early British settlers were, no doubt "Christians" in the broad sense, but "Christians" of a very particular kind, committed solely to their own view of Christianity and intolerant of other views. Settlement prety much cointinued that way for a long time, with the so-called "Puritans" in New England, the Catholics in Maryland, Anglicans in the south. There has always been an "on again, off again" acceptance of us "Christians" for other "Christians." Sadly, it continues today and the worst part of it is we continue to wrestle with ourselves while the biggest threat is not from each other but from secularism, materialism, hedonism, and the onslaught of militant Islam.
Come on Christians! We are supposed to be known by our love for each other. |
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| April 18, 2009 |
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As well I'm ashamed to say that I come from the most Godless state in the country, Vermont.
It's a shame. I go to a Christian school, and we do all we can to evangelize as much as we can, we help people by commuting community service, were always nice and friendly and we get involved with many different things. Nothing seems to be working. |
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| April 18, 2009 |
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I've read the same thing in several places. I wonder if the people writing the articles are Christians?
I think... that if we look at things with the view of "the world's comin' to an end" and "how bad it is", our attitudes reflect that. Honestly, I don't listen to media, or put very much value into what I read online or in the newspapers. Most of it all hype... they have to something to write about. It here today and gone tomorrow.
Maybe I'm just silly to be looking at the world in a different manner. I refuse to see blackness and doom. God has given me too much to live that way. |
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| April 18, 2009 |
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Excellent blog Kathy. There is too much here to comment in one reply but this particular passage resonated with me. "American Christians too have fallen into a subculture. We are no longer just "followers of Christ" but followers of a group dynamic that we have come to believe is synonymous with God Himself. Our group ideology tells us how we must vote, how we must interpret the Bible . . . It may tell us we have to boycott Disney or K-Mart or Proctor & Gamble (this one was a hoax btw) . . . It has its own lingo, its own music industry, its own set of rules for what we all must think. And we are convinced by the group that all this ideology comes straight from God. The clear implication from our subculture is "if you dress like us, talk like us, believe like us, etc., you can be a Christian." This kind of thinking is indeed very dangerous and I think we all need to be aware of our own thinking along these lines because the "trap" can be so subtle. In other words, even when we think we are not part of this subculture on one issue, we may very well be on a different issue. I've had to examine my own thinking a LOT over my christian walk. I think you've hit on the best solution or at least one that I am applying in my own walk, day by day and bit by bit. "As we become true Christ followers, we will change, as will others' perceptions of us, and people will be drawn into His presence. We will learn to love our fellowman, not in empty words, but in truth." (emphasis mine) One final comment, I couldn't agree more with mstovall's comments. Those are words full of wisdom and truth. |
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| April 18, 2009 |
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John, while I don't think the article meant to imply that America has ever been a "Christian nation" in the sense that some Christians like to think of it, I agree with you that we are largely ignorant of our real national history, choosing to rewrite it for our purposes. And certainly I give you an amen on "love!"
Hi Cait! Welcome to MyChurch! I am curious as to why you believe VT to be "the most Godless state in the country," and I'm sorry that you feel embarrassed to be from there. I have been to VT and was struck by the beauty of God's creation to the point of tears. His fingerprints are all around. I'm sure there are indeed fewer Christians in VT than there are in the Bible Belt where I live, but also fewer who are confused by the Christian subculture I wrote about here. We probably never see the full picture of what God is doing through us, but I am certain that if your life sincerely belongs to God's service, He is using you to make a difference, if not in the way you meant it, maybe in a bigger way that we can't even see. I love meeting 16-year-olds who desire to be God's servants! God bless you, Cait!
Joey, I agree that the media's take on life issues, particularly in the spiritual arena, should not be accepted at face value. Some of us (self included) like to know what is being heard by the masses and analyze its significance in hopes of making some kind of positive difference. Others choose to ignore it and concentrate of issues closer to home. Both are serving God as leads them. Some are gifted as preachers, others teachers, others encouragers, others caretakers . . . I'm glad we are not all alike, and I'm glad you're you! :)
Joyful, you get it! Thank you for reading and commenting! :) |
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| April 18, 2009 |
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We as a nation of Christians have become too comfortable, too lazy in our walk in Christ. We have allowed the world to entice us into a lull, closing our eyes, and stuffing our ears. I am reminded of the verse in Revelations. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and `that' the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. |
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| April 18, 2009 |
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This is a great blog at least people are talking about the problem. I believe we have to minister like Jesus did. He met people right where they were and introduced them to himself, in a manner that was non-offensive, but loving and understanding. He cared enough to identify their need and meet it. We are in the dispensation of Grace and we should use this era to win people with the truth of Gods love and forgiveness. Instead of point fingers and ask others to fit in or mold of Christianity.
Also we have sat back and allowed Christian rights to be censored in the public sector like schools workplaces etc. God’s word states that as a man thinks so is he. If we tell them they are not Christian because of their grouping (sub-cultures) because of the way they dress or their lingo, they will believe you and give up on trying to reach a closer walk with Christ. They think why bother?
This is exactly what I was trying to get started when I posted the blog asking to discuss placing Christian material beck in the public sector. Their is a way which seems right to a man but the end there of is death. As a man thinks so is he.
If you check the 200 section of your libraries esp. in schools you will find that most of the copy write dates are before they took prayer out of schools over 30 yrs ago. There are laws that allow Christians to have these materials available to them. However many Christians do not know how to do it. Many don't do anything outside of their own realm off responsibility. The church in many cases teaches in such a way that it give people a me my four and no more attitudes. God’s word tells us that the older are to teach the younger. However, many of us tend to stand back from those who are not like us or who do not believe everything we believe, and many others simply are just not interested in what they perceive to be a taking a (controversial) stand. I have placed books in schools libraries where my children attended schools in two countries and it is neither hard nor controversial. It just takes a little time, money and know how. I am trying to raise awareness and educate on how to do this not only for yours but for those who come through after yours. Just to inspire someone I will give a story one kid told me. He asked ma as I was volunteering in the library, if I could help him find something to read on his grade level 5th in the 200 section. I went to look there were only books up to the 3rd grade and they were older. HE had been in that school for two years with nothing to read. Where he had a freewill choice to pick what he wanted to read. I educated the librarian and had her place three Christian books on the shelf. I checked for that material every few weeks to be sure it had not been pulled. Because I didn’t see it on the shelf for almost six months, that is because there is a famine in the land, the book was checked out and passed around and checked out over and over, due to word of mouth about the material. This is such a worthy cause; I don’t quite understand the lack of interest in discussing it and or dong it. The biggest problem I have is finding the people who have the right to have the books placed.(Students who have parents who care enough to educate the librarians.) And follow through if they books are not placed. God’s word tells us to lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven where mold and dust do not corrupt. I do not see any easier way to win them back than to respect their freewill choice to choose the read it for themselves, and providing materials for them.
Kay |
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| April 19, 2009 |
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true, there is a distinct difference between those that follow and worship Christ, and those that follow the church buildings and preachers your link is not working...... |
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| April 19, 2009 |
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Thanks Gary... due to my links not working am reposting this and attempting to create links which do work.
Been pondering over this topic myself before the Spirit of the Lord after I first saw the article. If I may be so bold as to offer: Through Jesus being both the author and finisher of our faith... I believe the Holy Spirit gave me a vision of the future of HIS Church back in 1989, which seems to be coming to pass... Please click: http://www.enterrest.com/God's_Vision_For_His_Church.htm By His Church I mean, those who through the power/life of our heavenly Father have become eternal Spiritual Beings... who are in the world, but not of it.... who are walk after the Spirit and not flesh, who recognize the power of His Kingdom within and His Spirit in their mists... who having a living relationship with our Heavenly Father serve HIM and those He loves... not the Church, (some who go to church serve the church thinking as they do so, this saves them and thus they have a superficial relationship, unaware) I believe the Spirit of the Lord has revealed to me and others in HIS family... HE has an eternal spiritual plan of redemption of grace which has been folding... in HIS timing and His ways since the foundations of the world when it was concieved... causing us to know among other revelations, we do not need to understanding... only trust ... our spiritual relationship is once based on faith... which ultimately births HIS Spirit within... causing us to become new creations in/through Christ. More and more of those who know the Lord intimately with a knowing no one can take away... are calling themselves Spiritual or followers of Jesus... and His ways/teachings... members of the family of God... rather than "Christian" these days... because the words Christian/Christianity... has such negative connotations to it to the younger generation... due to false teachings and traditions of man which have tainted HIS truth ... His original message, imparting legalism, judgmental-ism, greed, self serving attitudes, which serve to build the ego rather than create a humble, repentant heart of love established with HIS truth and a intimate union with the Spirit of God. If the vision I received mentioned above is true... then Father as a part of HIS Sovereign Plan... is exposing and bringing to death the 'works of the flesh'... which modern day Christianity has come to represent by those who are not of the 'remnant' born of HIS Spirit in truth... so unredeemed man can see the lack of power within the unredeemed nature... and desire to walk in SPIRIT and TRUTH in it's stead ... This is good .... such will cause them to reach out to the Spirit of the LORD first for HIS truth and Holiness... rather than look to man first and attempt to earn HIS love and righteousness through dead works and lies. Such will cause a travailing of one's soul... which will birth HIS truth/awaken His power within... and glorify HIM... rather than the flesh... such will awaken those who are asleep, proving Jesus is still the author and finisher of our faith today. Such will bring about the greatest Spiritual Renaissance since the days of Pentecost... ultimately manifesting mature sons and daughters who live in His Kingdom now! Such will manifest HIS Kingdom has come on earth... as it already is in Heaven ... fulfilling Prophecy. bren www.ActsOfTheHolySpirit.com |
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| April 19, 2009 |
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This is so true: She has forgotten, I and I alone give her power to keep My law for judgment begins in the household of God Come out from among them lest you become one with their sin."
I give a big AMEN, to the word the Lord gave you! |
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| April 19, 2009 |
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Kathy,
As always, you touched a nerve. I recently read UnChristians, a book based on a 3 year study of perceptions of Americans regarding Christianity. The book included disturbing statistics on a variety of topics. A very high percentage of folks when asked to describe perceptions of Christians used terms like intolerant, judgemental, hypocritical, self-rightous, etc.
One area really struck me. When asked how their Christian friends react to certain value-based situations vs. their non-Christian friends, again a large majority said, no difference. Does that suggest that many non-Christians act like Christians or that Christians are acting more like non-Christians?
Personally, I see several angles in these "trends", some of which were discussed in the book. One is that Christianity today is being largely defined by a relatively small few who tend to be the most outspoken and often at the extreme positions. Another is the group of televangelists...from the Jim and Tammy Bakers, to the faith-healers, to the ones who collect millions in donations and do little other than reap personal benefit.
As Christians, I am on the same page with Kay's comments earlier...we need to be in the community serving others in His name. We also need to, as Christ did, accept those that have not yet found a relationship with God...and that should include gays, youth, divorced, smokers, drinkers/addicts, etc.
The reaction I get from too many Christians on this topic reminds me of that old statue with the three monkeys...see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Acceptance is the first step to Accomplishment...if we continue to deny the issue, we have no chance of solving it.
Trying to end on a positive...I am encouraged by some of the folks I have met here. Young and old, the spirit of true Christianity does exists out there and it is encouraging to hear of some of the ministries that are taking their Christ into the streets, living the example.
God's Blessing to all.
pa
PS. Thanks for the B-day wishes a few weeks ago...it has been a while since I have been out here! |
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| April 20, 2009 |
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Thanks Patrick, I'm glad you agree. If enough did and it became a conviction, we would see God do great and mighty things again in our youth and prisons etc. Not that he doesn't because He does, I see it all the time. However as I work with many people types including Christians I notice many of them are weak in the faith and struggle. A lot of times due to the un-affordability and un-availability of Christian materials, so they can speak to themselves in helms and spiritual songs and devotional materials to keep them encouraged and Christian help books to educate them as to the why and how too 's of the faith. If I had to label it, Christian self helps books. That teaches us to take our thoughts captive and bring them into obedience to Christ. There are a lot of them out there however for those I serve to afford them in their present situation is a problem, That is why I would rather put the material on the public school shelf and let them have answers early in life, during their formative years. Before they make so many mistakes. As a man thinks s is he. I have tried to get people involved for several years and there is not much response. I don't understand it. What better way to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
I'm beginning to believe it is about doctrinal issues. If they allow ones views they have to allow others. Well while we fight that battle amongst ourselves, the kids are reading witchcraft, psychology, evolution, and many other things that are totally against God's word. EX. Look up the book "Jack" I found it on the middle school shelf 8 years ago. I would prefer them to have things like Experiencing God written by Henry Blackaby.
All you have to do is look at the difference in what the biggest problems going on in schools in the 50-70s and look at it since the 90’s with columbine, heritage etc.
This stars for you friend!
Kay |
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| April 20, 2009 |
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Kay, Thanks for the response. One thing I did forget to comment on early that your comments about schools reminded me of is the differences I have seen moving from the city (Atlanta) to rural America (Ninety Six, SC...and yes, that is the name of the town...lol).
I saw something the other day that for the first time in the history of America, more people are living in cities than in the country. My own experience thus far (about 2 years removed from Atlanta) is that the city is much more politically correct than rural areas. I have been to several functions at the boys schools where they have opened and/or closed with a prayer. In virtually every situation, folks here are not concerned about stating beliefs, open references to their faith, and the Amen! (clearly and often loudly stated) as a confirmation of agreement. I moved to Atlanta from south Ga in the late 60s and I honestly can't recall when the transition occurred where references to God were limited to churches and an occasional public response to something really tragic.
Here, you hear it on the news, you hear it from local and state politicians, you hear from the weather lady broadcasting a prayer of thanks that we spared by the recent tornadoes that touched lives in Tn, Ga, and NC, you hear it at the grocery store or WalMart...it is simply accepted here that God is a part of our lives.
My concern is that there is a parallel trend of folks moving from rural America to cities and the decline of Christianity (typically measured as church-going, which is another debate for another day). My thoughts are that maybe the parallel exist based on perceived need. In the city, everything you needed was available right there (speaking perception, not factual or spiritual). In the country, what you need are decent/helpful neighbors, the right mix of rain and sun, a plentiful harvest, enough cold in the winter to kill off some of the ticks and mosquitoes, a clean stream for fishing, etc. Most of those are not controlled/delivered by the county or city, they are the works of God.
Bottom line, I know in my 2 years here, I feel more of a relationship with God than I have ever known. Some of it is because I see His work every day, some of it that the pace is slower and I have more time with family, and more time to do ministry. That said, urban America continues to grow and rural continues to shrink. And as we do, we have less and less voice in who gets elected, federal and state policies, and virtually every aspect of life. And I fear that does not bode well for Christianity.
One last thought on the topic before I doze off. Obama was elected president against almost all odds. He did it by reaching out to those 'not served' and uniting them behind a common message using the incredible power of the technology we are using here and now...the internet.
If there is an opportunity for a resurgence of Christianity, I think it will require all Christians to first accept our denominational differences and agree that we are first members of Christ's Church...not Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, Holiness, Evangelical, etc. With that, we could begin to open, as He did, the doors to all who are willing to accept Him as Lord and Saviour. Well crafted and well executed, we could turn the tides in this country. Or...we can continue to cast stones at each other, bury our heads in the sand that the message is not getting through to too many, ignore the needs of those who He commanded us to serve, and wonder why the pews are not at full as they use to be.
Enough ramblings for tonight...GN all and God Bless,
pa |
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| April 21, 2009 |
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| Yes I agree, we moved to a more rural area about 12 years ago, it was like moving back in time 25 years, however in that 12 years, this area has done a lot of catching up in the politically correct arena, couple that with the fact that most people only have 2 children close together, they have not comprehended the changes in the school system. I have 4 (2 sets) oldest 29 youngest 19 (graduated 2008) so I've seen some big changes in the tolerance of Christianity. I have also noticed how those with their own agenda bring their suits against an individual student and then the ruling is applied across the board. This will continue until we educate a generation in how to regain their rights, and until they actually stand up and follow through on exercising their rights. I have a working system on how to do that. It does take a little faith & strength to accomplish, but first they must overcome their fear of rejection, and know that the law is on their side if it is done correctly. Maybe I should go back and write how to in the blog instead of just asking for comments and dialog about the issue. I will do that soon. Thanks for the feedback it helped me understand what I need to do. I’m Grateful! Another star for you! Kay |
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| April 21, 2009 |
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| Thanks for the Blog! Kathy |
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| April 22, 2009 |
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Kathy, I doubt the "Christian subculture" will ever die in America. It may indeed shrink significantly (as current trends seem to suggest). It may also change greatly in appearance (as I think it has indeed done throughout history). But I simply cannot see it completely dying, that is, if Christians constitute a subculture by virtue of their being Christian (Christ followers). I would add, it seems that God ordained a subculture, when he commanded, "be holy as I am holy". We are told to adopt a set of values that differ greatly from the world's values -- actually, through the indwelling Holy Spirit we have those "values" (God's law) imprinted on our hearts! We are also told to behave differently. We are even told in some cases to look different. I suppose history has shown Christians continually struggling to implement this God-ordained subculture to the best of our ability. I'm confident there will always be a Christian subculture in America, as long as there are Christians. Its appearance may change over time, but since our God examines the heart....so what! =) |
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| April 22, 2009 |
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Gary, I suspect Christians as a whole are indeed becoming lukewarm. The sad and difficult thing is that, although most would agree that much of the church is lukewarm, no one ever claims to be lukewarm. It's always someone else.
Kay, I like your heart. Keep ministering as God leads you, and don't assume that because masses of people don't find or respond to your blog that no one is interested in your ideas. You are new here, and there are over 200,000 members on this site. You probably haven't gotten to know all of their ideas either! Keep sharing, and enjoy getting to know some of the great folks here. God bless you and your work for God's kingdom!
Great to see you, Bren! I too have noticed more and more people calling themselves "Christ followers" to distance themselves from some of those who call themselves Christians. Ah, we who bear His name should be very careful what we do with it . . . |
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| April 22, 2009 |
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Woman of love, thank you! It's great to see your smile!
Patrick, you are a thinker, and I always enjoy hearing what you have to say!
Hi Mike! I think you and I are talking about two different "subcultures," but you make some good points. I didn't mean to imply that the subculture was inherently bad. To the contrary, much of it, like the Christian music industry, the Christian TV stations, the Christian websites, etc. can be very helpful in drawing us into God's presence or in educating us in the things of God. My point (or at least a part of it) was that we need to be careful to recognize that these things are the subculture that we have built, and not confuse song lyrics, for example, with God's own words. I am grateful for the Christian subculture, and I suspect much of it is indeed inspired by God. The danger I hoped to get across here was that of accepting the majority subculture voice as that of God without making a distinction between the two. The subculture can draw us closer to God, and it can push us farther away, as the people voices become louder than the One True Voice. |
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| April 22, 2009 |
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Kathy thanks for acknowledging that I commented. It is discouraging when no one validates your point after several attempts to communicate a truth for which our children suffer. It is a hard thing to get people involved in due to their beliefs, "As a man thinks so is he." We have let the worldliness of this world define our Christianity in Politically correct terms. Somehow that strikes a wrong cord in me. I guess you can always tell when someone is passionate about what they know to be the truth and what God has called them to do. I work with underserved women daily and they get it, they live through it daily, It baffles me how the Christian community doesn't get it yet. Neglect is one of the most painful things you can do to a young person, to neglect their needs is to say we don't care you are not worthy of our time or the investment. I have placed Christian material in the school system off and on for 15 years. So this is not just about mychurch. I have seen no indication that there are 200,000 people here. If there are that is great. Maybe the Lord will raise up a few to take up this cause, the easiest way to do it is through your children that are in the schools system. They have to want the materials. Until there is a court case to define the law and make the truth known, there is only one way that I have figured out. I am grieved when I remember things like columbine, and Rachel who said YES she believed in God. And I know there were probably not any resources for the Christians to refer the Clebolts too or for the Lord to lead them to.
Kay |
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| April 22, 2009 |
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| Seems like you're saying the expressions of our Christianity are often mistaken for the Christianity itself. This can be dangerous, I can agree w/that! |
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| April 22, 2009 |
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Kay, I pulled my son out of the public school system..... but if things go like they look now, I may be forced to put him back into the godless system again, if our Government ratifies this international convention that the UN is trying to force on us. see United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, you can read more here |
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| April 29, 2009 |
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Kathy, As always...an excellent blog. I put a somewhat related (and probably explosive) posting out tonight. It is actually a Letter to the Editor from our local paper where a woman effectively 'calls out' Chrisians to ether out up or shut up regarding pro-life. Her implied point is that Christians, by definiton, are Pro-choice and that Christians are quick to speak the words and criticize opposing views, but not so quick to support the life they fought to 'save'.
Another example, imho, of how Christianity is being tarnished. If we believe then we need to accept the consequences of those beliefs. When we fail to do so, we are labeled as hypocrits, self-rightous, out of touch with reality, etc.
I'm guessing I will get the required dose of resistance from some, but if there is a validity in her comments to me it is that we need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk...a topic I struggle to communicate effectivey to so many 'Christian' friends.
Peace to all,
pa |
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| May 05, 2009 |
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 [star!] |
I don't have time to read all the comments right now but your essay is thought provoking. One thing that spoke to me, you wrote "We huddle together in an attempt to keep alive what we perceive Christianity to be. But we have lost the original vision. We are fighting peripheral fights and have lost focus on what it might really mean to be a "Christ follower." We must seek that original vision. Maybe a difficult task, as it must necessarily be sought apart from the "herd." We must look beyond our church programs, our divisive theologies, our judgment of those we deem unbelievers, and the guidance of our trusted leaders; and pursue the mind of Christ Himself. Read through the Bible entire books at a time, alone."
The first thing that came to mind was Jesus words in 7:13Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 7:14For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it. The way indeed is narrow and we must enter individually just as we are, Jesus righteousness is the only clothing we can wear as we enter! Thanks for the reminder we stand alone together before our God covered in the Blood of our Savior! |
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| May 05, 2009 |
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| Thank you, Glenn! Great to see you! I love your comment "we stand alone together." There's a novel inside one line! Blessings and Peace! |
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| May 19, 2009 |
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| Amen, Warren! |
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| May 20, 2009 |
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| Warren, that reminds of me of Henry Blackaby's call to seek where God is working, and jump on board! |
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| June 20, 2009 |
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Thanks Kathy, We too stand although not alone , but sometimes it seems that way!
May I share this post with my folks? |
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| June 21, 2009 |
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| Hi Dr. Denis! Always feel free to share any of my posts. All I ask is a link to my blog or profile. Thanks, and God bless! |
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