Kathy
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Some Wars Never End: Southern Baptists' Dirty Laundry
||April 25, 2009|2176 reads
 

To add a comment to "Some Wars Never End: Southern Baptists' Dirty Laundry"
mstovall2003
April 26, 2009
Jesus did not come with labels.  He came to bring life to the lost and weary.  I stand with Him.  It is a shame that Christians now think they have to take a side in representing our Savior.  I pray that in my naivete and my refusal to join in the politics that I am doing what the Lord wants me to do.  Wish I had been there with you to hear Maya Angelou and Jimmy Carter.
Kathy
April 26, 2009

Amen, Mary!  Jesus prayed for our unity, not that we would find labels to divide ourselves.  Oh, it would have been so wonderful to have sat beside you this weekend in worship!!

Joyful Servant
April 26, 2009

Kathy, I am not a Baptist and I know very little about splits and schisms in the various denominations. But I do stand with Jesus and do my best as a non-denominational of pentecostal persuasion to love all the brethren and to look past the divisions to live in peace. It is sometimes hard to do that when some are intent on forcing their view of Christianity down your throat and pressuring you into a certain viewpoint. 

I believe very much in learning under an anointed preacher of God and then reading the scriptures myself whilst working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. It is so good not to be caught up in legalism and the bondage of the law, but to have the freedom to be able to live within the boundaries of the laws that God has set up. If we as believes earnestly seek His truth, He will reveal it to us.

I thank you so much for the brief history lesson of the Baptist faith and its different streams.One day all these man-made divisions will be gone and we will perfected and united as a body of believers.

I would have loved to hear Maya Angelou and Jimmy Carter with you. Maya Angelou with her powerful voice and gifted oratory has always inspired me. Jimmy Carter, as a humble man always inspired me that he ever became the President =] and his work now with Habitat for Humanity is an awesome thing.  I'm glad you were inspired by them both. God bless xoxox

Voice in DC
April 26, 2009
Sadly, this is the state of the church overall...not only within the Baptists...each one has its labels, its separation, its finger-pointing...so sad.

Yet, I have to believe that as we grow in the Lord, not only as individuals, but as organizations, these "differences" can be marginalized allowing us to truly recognize what is fundamental through it all - Christ crucified, buried, and raised again for you and for me.

Sounds like you had a wonderful weekend...one that will life the soul for His glory!
Dennis Howe
April 26, 2009
Kathy,
Are you starting to notice that there are many moves that are drawing Churches into places of commonality? I have found that it seems to have started with worship music, and is moving across the Church as a whole. I just ran into an instance where a friend, with a Spirit filled background, ran into a situation where she had found herself in an unwise position(due to her naivette), and needed a strong prayer warrior do help with spiritual warfare. She called on her best friend, some from a Baptist background, and they spent a very long time on the phone dealing with areas of demonic activity, spiritual warfare, and suicidal issues related to the situation(not her, but another person). I listened to the process later in the evening and was amazed at the spiritual insight from these two young women. These used to be areas that Pentecostal Churches held close to their prerogative (so to speak), yet here was a "good Baptist" girl pulling out all the stops to war against spiritual issues. I'm seeing these kinds of things everywhere, and I think it's a good sign. I know all these amazing people on MyChurch cross every boundary imaginable, and are the Church. Thanks for also being a very appropriate image yourself, you are a wonderful encourager and example.
Barb
April 26, 2009
Wow.  A very helpful blog Kathy.  You know what struck me as I read?  (Well, a lot struck me but I will mention only one thing here.)  The love of Christ is being obscured as the outsiders watch Jesus' followers fighting amongst themselves.  Our pastor was just talking about that in our worship service this morning.  How do we as Christ-followers expect anyone outside the church to want to be a Christian if all they see is negative stuff?  Can we blame anybody---especially ages 18 to 41---for not wanting to be like "us?"  May the Lord help us all as we try to learn to live grace-filled lives.  And we must accept others for who they are.  Hopefully they will accept us too.  It's coming.  I really believe it's coming... 
Kathy
April 27, 2009
Joyful, I love your heart and your reminder that all these man-made divisions will pass away.  Grace and Peace to you!

Voice, I look forward to the day when "Jesus Christ crucified, buried, and raised again for you and me" will be recognized as the fundamentals!  It was a great weekend!

Dennis, I think you're right.  Christian groups do seem to be joining together more.  God created us in all kinds of diversity, and when the church blocks that diversity we are missing something.  Our different life and worship experiences bring a richness to our gatherings,when we gather only in Christ's name and only for His glory. 

Thank you, Barb!
  "How do we as Christ-followers expect anyone outside the church to want to be a Christian if all they see is negative stuff?  Can we blame anybody---especially ages 18 to 41---for not wanting to be like "us?"  May the Lord help us all as we try to learn to live grace-filled lives."  Amen!!
Kathy
April 30, 2009
Thank you for sharing your view, Pastor Tim.  I wrote this blog merely as a personal reflection of my own witness to this war.  It was not meant to be all-encompassing, which would indeed be way over my head.  It is always good to get an opposing viewpoint, and I will only note here that the perspective you have presented is the predictable perspective the fundamentalist institutions teach their students.

I'm sure you would not claim any Southern Baptist background, other that your seminary affiliation.  Thus the labels you use (modernist, fundmentalist, etc.) are not an exact match for what they have come to mean in the SBC.  As I'm sure you know, Liberty University is not traditionally a Southern Baptist institution, but was founded by moral majority leader Jerry Falwell as arguably the most conservative institution in the country, far too conservative to have been a traditional Southern Baptist school.  It was only very recently, following the fundamentalist take-over in the SBC that Falwell saw the SBC as a good match for his school, and he switched his affiliation.  Although apparently Falwell chose to call himself "evangelical" rather than "fundamentalist," by SBC terms, those two labels are not either/or.  All Southern Baptists, fundamentalist and moderate, consider themselves evangelical, but moderates would not identify themselves with Falwell's ideologies.

  It is almost impossible not to be one-sided in battles this divisive, isn't it?  All this is about labels, labels established to divide the family of God, labels that Jesus never used, though He said much about love, unity, and caring for our brothers.  Love, Grace, and Peace to you and those you love, and may we not allow man-made labels to separate us in Christ Jesus.
Patrick
May 04, 2009
  [star!]
How difficult can it be?  God sent His only Son to attone for our sins.  Christ died, and rose from the dead as the ultimate expression of Love for us.  He simply asks that we accept that love and share His love through words and service to others.

As someone stated earlier, Christians are often the worst enemy of Chistianity!

God's Belssings to all,
pa
Kathy
May 05, 2009
Patrick, your post reminds me of the famous words attributed to Ghandi:  "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." 
Indeed Christians are often the worst enemy of Christianity!
Thanks for the star!   :)
Jerry Webb
May 06, 2009
  [star!]
My dear friend, it is always good to read your blogs. The clicks and separations are not unique to the Southern Baptist and it truly is a sad thing. We methodist are nothing like the movement that John Wesley and his cohorts started so long ago. Patrick asked a question that has pricked my heart since beginning the ministry. "How difficult can it be?" Kathy, do you think some people just do not know how to love?

That label thing just bugs me to no end.
Joey     R
May 06, 2009

I'm chiming in... I have to agree with what Jerry said about Methodists.  We need to get back to the basic of loving.

I think that there is just too much "me, me, me, me, me"  and not enough "us"

Kathy
May 06, 2009
Good thoughts, Jerry and Joey.  I do think that our society, Christians included, has become so word-focused that we often don't know the difference between the word and the reality that it represents.  For example, I think to many, to say in words "I love you/him/them," is the equivalent of actually loving.  We are losing the understanding that words are symbols, merely standing for the real thing.  And yes, we are definitely too into "me, me, me" and missing real love for others.  I will be praying with you.  Love to you both!
Patrick
May 06, 2009

Jerry, Thanks for the comment.  I'm realatively certain my comments here will invoke an outcry from some here, but I believe if a lot of Christians would recognize and accept that the basis of Christianity is Christ, not the Bible...else it would be called Biblanity.


We did a Bible study about a year ago called Chasing Daylight, by Erwin McManus...a great program if anyone is looking for a study.  One of my favorite quotes from Erwin is, 'There is a time to pray and there is a time to obey'.  In my earlier post,I gave the cliff notes version of the cliff notes of the Bible.  We can debate every verse of the Bible (pardon the express) until hell frezes over.  But at the end of the day, He simply asks that we accept His love and that we share His love with others through service.


Consider the possibility if every Christian spent an hour or more a week serving others through Him.  How awesome would that be???  We would have more impact than the largest corporation in the world...more than many countries...His word and His power would take our efforts and multiply the impact to something that would be hard for any force to stop.


Instead, we talk, and we preach, and we study our Bibles, and we debate the meaning of words, and we divide His kingdom, and through it all we to often fail to follow the simple example of Christ's life.


Personally, I occasionally enjoy the banter.  A blog out here on Christians serving alchohol was one that I jumped into.  But does the choice to serve wine to a dinner quest define us as Christians or not as Christians?  And both sides of the Bible-thumpers were busy posting their verse quotes to prove that we are or are not good Christians if we do.


Believe me when I say that I have no problems with folks reading the Bible.  I find it a source of inspiration, a source of comfort when I need it, and a source of guidance.  But there is a bigger picture than the Bible itself.  We can try to make it complex. But once that premise is accepted, in the words of Yogi, simple really does become simple. 


BIC,

pa


   

Kathy
May 07, 2009
Thanks, Patrick!  I wrote a blog a while back that I think shares many of your points:  http://www.mychurch.org/blog/81667/God-Didnt-Write-the-Bible
Bill Stevenson
May 09, 2009

I read the following recently:

“Mad Church Disease” Excerpts

 

from the Overview part

The Good News concerning Jesus was solving problems along before man contracted “mad church disease” and long before institutional religion and the contemporary church were introduced by men who envisioned their answers to life's problems more profound than God's. The stream flowing from the river of life was pure and tranquil before religion and church contaminated it. God has been replaced with Religion, and Jesus has been substituted with Churchianity. And all in the name of the Lord!

 

In the beginning there existed only one body of believers, as opposed to hundreds of churches/sects today, and it was composed of all of those who had accepted Messiah Jesus as their Savior and Redeemer. There was nothing to join. Jesus, the King of kings, added them to the new arrangement the moment they were born anew (Acts 2:47).

 

 

I stand where reformation is anchored. I cannot stand elsewhere and live with my conscience. If I'm to grow and produce in my spiritual vocation, which the Lord has placed upon my heart, I must be free to function as a reformer. Consequently, I offer no apologies for being outspoken in my efforts to influence those who are still enslaved by the institutional church and caught up in the web of sectarianism inherited from their forefathers of yesteryear. I will be confrontational without being rude or crude.

 

from the Personal History part

For a number of years I gave hot pursuit to church ministries as pulpit minister and partisan pastor, but later discovered that my efforts to “church” others wore "a chasing after the wind" and an emptiness that could not find an exit. That hollow part of my life was resolved in 1976 when, after careful evaluation of and research into institutional religion, I concluded that Churchianity was not the solution to sin, nor to the world's problems.

 

It was at that point that I launched an exposé of the institutional church and opened up its numerous maladies and apostasies. This evolved into a ministry of reformation and unity within the Christian community, which is still an ongoing endeavor. My e-mail column, Reformation Rumblings, goes out to hundreds of leaders in different parts of the world, and many have viewed and continue to view my Website, under the same title.

 

The Author  [Buff]

 

 

REFORM OR PERISH

 

Unless the institutional church undergoes complete reform, she will eventually reach a point of no return. Unless she's redeemed, some future historian will be led to write a history on The Rise and Fall of Western Christianity. For without regeneration, apostate church may some day be ready for an isolated corner of history. If suicide be her lot, she will be her own finisher.

 

TESTIMONY OF OUR FOREFATHERS

 

The religious system called “The Church” is no longer influential or impressive. She has lost most of her ability to relate-to the human predicament. It was Abraham Lincoln who said, “Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma” (www.quotedb.com/quotes/2140). Lincoln relied heavily on God but leaned away from the religious establishment.

 

Thomas Jefferson wrote, “The greatest enemies of Jesus are the doctrines and creeds of the church. It would be more pardonable to believe in no God at all than to blaspheme Him by the atrocious writings of the [church] theologians” (Ferrer, FOB 1311, Fallbrook, CA 92028, 1987). He further announced that he had “sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man” (Ibid). Needless to say, Jefferson included the various institutions of the religious establishment when he referred to “tyranny over the mind of man.”

 

John Adams alluded to the religious order as so much “baggage” when he wrote, “Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find Christianity encumbered with” (Ibid.).

 

James Madison spoke of the “fruits” of orthodox religions as ignorance, arrogance and servility in the laity, superstition, bigotry, and persecution (ibid). But long before our founding fathers came upon the scene, Martin Luther, the Catholic defector, insightfully concluded that the greatest threat to the cause of Jesus always arises from those who lay claim to being his children (Ibid). Gandhi of India proclaimed that Christianity is the greatest enemy of Jesus Christ (Ibid).

 

Our founding fathers looked upon the splintered estate of partisan religion with dismay. Judging from their words, they must have felt that the schismatic plight, the endless rituals, the never-ending symbols, and the clerical jargon of sectarian religion had no meaningful message for a troubled world. If Lincoln could have had his way, he no doubt would have reshaped, reformed, and even reversed “Christianity” in an effort to rid it of excess baggage-just as he freed the slaves of excess “baggage”.

 

HER DIVISIVE DILEMMA

 

The institutional church's “cargo” of division has defeated her. Her “backpack” of jargon has resurrected the “Tower of Babel”. And when the world looks upon the mess she has created, they see a jumbled mass of rival productions. It is not surprising, then, when they conclude their world is more glamorous than the world the religious establishment promotes. If the Christian movement in A. D. 40 had been as splintered as it is today, the resurrection message-- the message of salvation-- would have had little impact upon the lost world. The first believers went forth as a united front, an army of dedicated recruits, whose message was elementary, not loaded down with ecclesiastical garbage or encumbered with divisive dispatches. They communicated "Jesus and him crucified."

 

The early believers won the world without theological seminaries or missionary societies. They changed life-styles without throwing a rock, burning a building, drawing a sword, or parading down Main Street in Jerusalem. If we intend to influence the world with the redemptive message, we must abandon our divisions and march forth as a united front. To go forth as a divisive facade is lo face defeat before we “fire the first shot.”

 

 

If Apostles Peter and Paul had endeavored to spread the message of the risen Christ while working with and furthering the sects of their day, the new movement would have become stalemated and stagnated. If Martin Luther had burdened himself with the ecclesiastical anatomies of his time and had attempted to advance reform while clinging to their bosoms, the towering Protestant movement would not have gotten beyond Wittenberg's city gates. His famous words before the Imperial Diet at Worms, Germany in April 1521 are descriptive of his restless, truth-seeking spirit of reformation, “Unless I am refuted and convinced by testimony of the Scriptures or by clear arguments, my conscience is bound in the Word of God-- I cannot and will not recant anything.” Luther escaped the “Holy See's” murderous hounds on this occasion, but the sinister Vatican hunted and bedeviled him for years.

 

LUTHER'S PLEA GOES UNHEEDED

 

It was Luther who begged his followers not to call themselves Lutherans but simply Christians, saying that he had not been crucified for them. And because his disciples did not heed his plea, the Lutheran sect has become an integral part of the divisive plight within the Christian community. But this is the history of all noble movements that become entangled in partisan, rival affairs. Their affections no longer revolve around celestial affairs but are centered on building up the party. The world drifts farther into a state of darkness while institutional religion organizes, plans, scrutinizes, and develops new ways to increase the size of her sects and enlarge her church coffers.

 

If we hope to achieve reformation, we must reach beyond the established order and ecclesiastical structures. We must bypass religious sculptures, theological systems, clerical institutions, religious symbols and rituals.

 

ORCAM/KI) OUT 01' EXISTENCE

 

An eagle cannot fly if tied to an anchor. An athlete cannot run while carrying a hundred-pound backpack. A plane will not leave the runway if loaded down with too much cargo. And so it is with the religious establishment. She cannot fly because her yoke is too heavy with structures, organizations, and clerical arrangements. She has truly herself out of practical existence. Within her structures are Missionary Societies, Pulpit Committees, Gospel Outreach endeavors, Evangelistic panels, Board meetings, Deacons' meetings, Preachers' meetings, Elders' meetings, Vacation Bible School programs, Lectureships, Forums, and a host of other scavenger organizations that drain her potentials and plunder her talents. Her yoke is too heavy, preventing her from becoming airborne with heaven's message of redemption.

 

These parasitical organizations extract the very life from the body of believers. In essence, she has permitted her internal “organs” to strangle her. There's no room, no time, and no money for the message of salvation. Her fancy edifices and polished organizations are symptoms of her pride and digression. Hundreds of millions of dollars are squandered on “materialistic evangelism” while millions of the world's poor go hungry-- not only for food but also for the Good News about Jesus. Her priorities are abused and misplaced. She has taken the simple arrangement of communicating the Gospel to others and developed it into a complicated mess.

 

The activities, movements, and efforts of the first believers were unskilled, ordinary, unsophisticated, and informal-- although serious and edifying. Our contemporary system is perplexing, rehearsed, organized to the brim, ritualistic, formalistic, and boring.

 

As most everyone is elected to some church function, there's no one left to reach out for the lost or to help the destitute. So the officers go around in circles, involving themselves in paper work, organizing meetings, filling speaking engagements, and otherwise doing nothing to convert the world. The world keeps hanging, if only by a thread, waiting for “Christians” to toss it the lifejacket of salvation. But no! Institutional religion is too busy keeping her churches and organizations afloat to bother with the Great Commission. Millions are waiting for someone to bring them the message of deliverance, but she sits around creating more organizations to implement the ones that have already become dormant and stale. Until the modern church becomes more interested in more people, she will remain out of the people business. Her religious parties, missionary societies, theological schools, and clergy are not winning the world.  It was individual Christian action that brought results 2,000 years ago, and it will take individual Christian action today to achieve the same results.

 

When we as individuals-- begin where the early believers began, we will turn the religious establishment and her “Pharaohs” upside down, just as the early believers turned the first century establishment and her clergy upside down. We can accomplish this by abandoning our comfortable pews, ceasing to demand that professional ecclesiastics bottle-feed us with their warmed-over “sermons”, and “going out into the byways and highways.”

 

Instead of trying to get the world into our church structures, let the Good News of Heaven take believers out of our church structures and into the world. The “world” is next door, down the street, over the hill, at the supermarket and office, and on the bus and plane. The “world” is wherever people are. As it is not necessary to be specially trained and schooled to go next door to tell a neighbor about gardening, it is not required that one be specially instructed and theologically educated to tell the same neighbor about the Man who came forth from the grave after three days.

 

Those common, uneducated saints who fled from Jerusalem in the face of persecution “went everywhere broadcasting the Word" (Acts 8:1-4). They had a simple but stirring story to tell, and they told it! If Jesus' special envoys, the Apostles, had insisted that the early believers first enroll in a school of theology, or take a “Bible Training Course”, or attend a “Christian Conference”, the message would have stopped dead in its tracks-- as it has in our modern age. The early believers were already enrolled in the school of Jesus Christ, and the resurrection was their theology.

 


URGENCY OF THE TIMES

 

Who or what can motivate the modern church? She will not be aroused until she discerns the urgency of the times and gets off her butt and out of her organizations and into the world, where Jesus said to go. Her elaborate church structures and idols stand as monuments to her failures and complacency. Her comfortable pews have weakened her, and her “Reverends” and Pastors and Priests have wrecked her. Like infants who have to be bottle-fed, she demands to be spoon-fed by clerical elitists, even though she has had ample time to acquire spiritual maturity.

 

Where will it all end? The whole mess will culminate in the trash-heap of bygone religions unless the entire system is reformed. And that is what this message is all about.

 

 

I see today's church as more of a greedy corporation than a caring and humane community. Satan is at his zenith when 85 percent of church contributions are wasted on materialistic projects and programs, while only 15 percent is spent on evangelism and to alleviate the needs of the destitute. As for my house and me, we shall remain “believers at large” and support, independently and at our own discretion, any need or ministry we deem worthy.

 

THE REASON JESUS DIED

 

It should be clearly understood that Jesus did not die for religious parties, churches, sects, cults, or denominations. Instead, He died for Jews, He died for Gentiles, He died "for all the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one" (John 11:52). Jesus is not interested in uniting churches, denominations, and cults. He's interested in uniting all of God's scattered children, wherever they are, to bring them together into one body of believers, "so that they may be united as we [Jesus and His Father] are united" (John 17:11).

 

The early Christian community was free of Catholicism and Protestantism in that there were no Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, or Roman Catholics. All of these sects were founded by men centuries after Jesus ushered in His colony of believers. He is not their founder and author. He authored one body of believers, not a whole carload of wrangling factions.

 

If Jesus ascended to Heaven without being a Protestant, and He did, and if the Apostle Paul was taken to paradise without being a Roman Catholic, and he was, I, too, can enter Heaven without being a Baptist, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Mormon, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, or without being tainted with any of the other partisan colors. All of these sects are counterfeit copies of what Jesus ushered in. To place our allegiance in any of them is to place our relationship with God in jeopardy.

 

ADVERSE TO HEAVEN'S DESIGN

 

It would not be fair if I closed this chapter without telling you why I believe religious parties, churches, sects, and denominations are wrong and adverse to heaven's purpose.

 

There are two principal reasons. 1) They were authored by man, not God; and 2) They are a “work of the flesh”. The great Apostle Paul placed the “party spirit” (religious parties or churches) alongside idolatry, hatred, discord, envy, drunkenness, and sexual immorality (Galatians 5:19-21).

 

The local believers at Corinth had formed parties within their Christian community. Some had built a religious party around Paul, others around Apollos, still others around Peter-- and, yes, some of the believers had even formed a religious party around Jesus. Even the “Christ party” was wrong. It was wrong because it excluded other believers (1 Corinthians 1:10-12). The “party spirit” is an attitude that generates separation and division. Religious parties in the form of churches are the end result.

 

GOD'S TEMPLE

 

God no longer “lives in temples built by [human] hands” (Acts 17:24). His only sanctuary today is the believer's heart (1 Corinthians 3:16). But try telling this to the average pew-sitter. He views his church edifice and its “sanctuary” as holy designs and feels that he must go there in order to worship and make contact with God. However, his edifice and “sanctuary” are no holier than the building's restrooms. God dwells in the heart, not in tangible structures.

 

How die we ever get this way? Most of the blame can be placed upon the shoulders of the professional clergy. They devise and invent and create and lead and we blindly follow. Are we no longer capable of thinking independently? Where have all the freethinkers gone? Why have we succumbed to being robots?

 

Men seem to learn but little from history. Moved with pride, swept with “my way or no way”, in every generation there are those who spend their time and money to erect the same idols and to perpetuate the same blunders of their sectarian forefathers. There has never been a human idol erected, whether a church edifice or an image, that did not betray God’s trust and eventually bring disaster to its erectors and their followers.

 

 

Kathy
May 09, 2009
Hi Bill!  That's a really long comment!  Please do me (and the other readers) a favor:  Give us a short summary in your words, and then a link to the entire article.  (Or copy this article as your own blog, and link to your blog from here.)  Do you have a source for this article?  Thanks!
Kathy
May 15, 2009
Pastor Tim, thank you for both your comments, which you must have recently deleted.  I just ran across a recent AP article I wanted to share with you.  Apparently this Brown University student named Kevin Roose entered Liberty for one semester to get an inside view and write a book on the experience.  His book "The Unlikely Disciple," surprisingly though turned out to be much kinder and gentler than he had intended, as he came to love his new friends there and saw they had much more in common than he imagined.  It's not clear in this article whether Roose is even a Christian, but if not, how much more true would this realization be for those of us who are?  http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-04-23-roose-falwell-liberty_N.htm
Jerry Webb
May 19, 2009

Kathy, that article is fascinating!!! Did you check out the comments at the end. Can we not have any discussion about faith without choosing sides?

Go Cubbies
May 23, 2009
That Pastor Tim was one cool dude! Where did he go?
Kathy
May 23, 2009

Hopefully one day, Jerry!

GC, I suspect he is very nearby!   ;)

Go Cubbies
May 23, 2009
:)  His spirit is always with us. lol
Kathy
May 30, 2009
Great verse and thoghts, Warren!  Thanks!