~Ken

Howdy Ken,

I remember hearing Walter Martin talking about this on the radio.  Walter Martin is the guy who started the Christian Research Institute.  He said the verses in Philippians, in the original Greek, made it clear He fully retained His Godhood, while becoming fully Human.

Just a thought: if we are made in His image, then He have been a lot more human before He came to Earth than we realise.  Maybe He only gained scars.  By becoming fully human, He had to live the life of a human, from birth to death.  That involves change, obviously.  He couldn't become fully human and not change - as a human.  That doesn't mean His godhood was changing.  I look at it sort of like Jesus put on a different suit.  When I put on a suit, I'm the same person inside, but my role temporarily changes to match the suit (I put on a 3 piece to go to weddings, I put on a scuba suit to go underwater).

Don't worry about rambling.  It's some of the best communication =D 

Hi. I'm glad your back!

Can you find exactly wht Mr. Martin said? A transcript of the radio program or something? I would like to see how he shows that the Phil verses show Jesus retained divinity.

I agree with the concept that He is more human than we may realize (or we are more like Him than we realize); but the fact remains that there is a big difference. I don't see how He could live a divine human life and yet still be tempted as we are. That is an oxymoron, isn't it?

What does it mean to be God-man?

~Ken

Howdy Ken,

I'm still looking for the Dr. Martin quote.  I wouldn't be able to remember the date to get a transcript.  The Phil verses showed Jesus retained His divinity in the original Greek.  Do you know any Greek Scholars?

I can't see why living a devine human life would automatically ban temptation.  Temptation isn't sin.  Jesus was tempted by Satan after the 40 days in the wilderness.

My understanding is that God-Man refers to Jesus being totally devine, and totaly human at the same time.

Jess 

"My understanding is that God-Man refers to Jesus being totally devine, and totaly human at the same time."

Perhaps the Amplified Bible will help.  I got this from www.biblegateway.com.  Notice the only thing Jesus gave up was "all privilidges and rightful dignity".  He did not give up being God.

Phil 2:5-11 

5 Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [^[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not ^[b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped ^[c]or retained,

7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ^[d]rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.

8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has ^[e]freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name,

10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee ^[f]should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 And every tongue [^[g]frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

One word Ken: family. By his birth through a human, and the familial relationships, God has made himself, through Christ a brother to all of humankind. But in order for this to be true, Jesus had to retain some portion of his divine nature, else it would not have held true.

I also thing that Jesus as the God-Man is a mystery that cannot be understood intellectually, rather it has to be lived. Only by living the kenotic life of Christ and putting oneself on the path to theosis can one partake of the divine nature of God. 

Or to provide a simpler answer to your question, Jesus couldn't become fully human no more that you can become fully divine. You partake of each others natures without becoming completely possessed by them.

I would suggest reading JND Kelly's "Early Christian Doctrines" you will find what a lot of the Church fathers and great hersiarchs has to say about the subject.

Interesting concept, DarkRadiance, but does the Bible say this?

~Ken

In the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God and the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.

O.k. The word never said that Jesus was a "God-man". This is a term used by man to explain a concept. It causes problem when we use it outside of what it was originally created to explain. The bible tells us to avoid certain tails of geneologies which are pointless and only lead to confusion. This, I classify as fitting into the category.

Just reemphasizing, the bible tells us no-where that Jesus is a "God-man". It is used by pastors and theolosians to clarify. The main point these persons may be getting at is that Jesus is the Son of God and gave up His glory to be likened unto us and then was given glory by the father and seated at the right hand of God (The Father) currently. Phil. 2:6-11 says Jesus saw it not robbery to be equaled with God, since he was already in the very nature of God. However, he humbled himself and became into the very likeness of man, obedient even unto death.

The Law requires a perfect blood sacrifice for the remission of sins which Jesus fulfilled. For there is none righteous. There is none worthy to open the seals but Jesus. The picture I am painting is that Jesus was the perfect ("ultimate sacrifice") and the law was a fore-shadowing of Him. It could not provide the cleansing of sin - the law was powerless, but the faith in what the law represented is what made it sufficient until Christ's entrance on the scene in the form of man. 

He had to come as a human, without His power/glory of God and be clothed in the power given Him by the Holy spirit in order to show us, believers, how to live in the power of the holy spirit. He was and is the prototype for all believers to follow. The first fruit amongst many brethren. 

Jesus was always the begotten son of God, even while on the earth walking in the form of God. 

I can explain this concept more if you'd like, but i think in this short space, it was answered relatively well. It is just a man-made concept to explain. Should never be the focus of a Christian's life because there are greater things God wants us to do. God Bless.

"He had to come as a human, without His power/glory of God and be clothed in the power given Him by the Holy spirit in order to show us, believers, how to live in the power of the holy spirit. He was and is the prototype for all believers to follow. The first fruit amongst many brethren."

Exactly; I could have put it no better myself. That's what I was trying to get across through this blog; Jesus actually gave up his Godhood to become human for us; he was in the form of God before, then gave up that form to become like the servant; up until his resurrection.

The idea of a "God-man" Messiah, I believe, cheapens his sacrifice; he wouldn't have given up anything; and my Saviour risked everything. As man... he had the potential to sin; if he had, our eternity would have died with him; and, of course, his own as well.

Hallelu Yah; my Lord, my Saviour, my Yeshua.

~Ken 

Oh, yeah. In relation to some-one saying, "God became man so that man might become God," this is wrong. When God made man, He didn't make man as God or to become God, although man was in His most glorious form here. The devil knew that He couldn't be God, neither man nor himself. If he had thought man could be God he would have never compelled man to eat of the tree, since He wanted to set his throne above God's. What the devil said is that, if you eat of the tree you will become like God, knowing good and evil. God made man LIKE Him to have dominion over the earth, being made a little lesser than the angels. We are now being conformed into the image of Christ, the spottless lamb and perfect son/servant/soldier. Jesus was the first fruits amongst the brethren. We are growing up into Christ in all things is what the book of Ephesians chapter 4 tells us. Jesus was and is our prototype in the world. We don't need to try to be like anyone else.

If Christ can do it as a man with the holy ghost, we can and should be able to do it too with the enabling of Holy Spirit. This is our heritage, even Christ.  

The one thing which stops us from doing exactly what Christ did is our beliefs. Because of our beliefs the enemy has us in bondage to His power. There is a truth (absolute truth) in regard to God's creation, and we must seek to know it, and if we learn anything which is less than Christ to be our heritage we must firmly refuse it. The enemy will use it against us. After all, our faith is based on the truth we know. And the truth which you know shall set you free from bondage of the devil."And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

An example: Someone might say that it is impossible for a man to pray for all sick and have all sick healed. John G. Lake was a man who sought after the heart of God and settled for nothing less than walking as Christ. Yes' in his journey to the truth He prayed for a few and they were not healed, but as he grew, so did the revelation of truth in his spirit and thus his faith. As a result, in Africa he emptied a hospital and taught an African the truth according to the word and he did the same thing. He came back to the U.S and started healing rooms and trained men and women and his state (Washington) was declared the healthiest state in America by the mayor. Some-one might say that Jesus couldn't heal all, but that is a lie. Jesus healed all those who came to Him. He could do no mighty miracles in His home town however because of their lack of faith. Faith like a man coming to Him and saying master just say the word and my servant would be healed. Faith like someone running up to Him and touching His clothes to recieve their healings. These are mighty works due to people's faith. The word said, Jesus healed all those oppressed of the devil.

Got a little carried away, but it was necessary. 

Hello. It's okay to get a little carried away.

In relation to  Melleus Deum's quote of "St." Athanasius, I dunno what he was thinking but I agree with the words.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 

Those words to me speak of a transformation not simply to a sinless nature, but another form of existence; one that we could not be able to see unless we were make "like him".

Remember, when Moses was permitted to see God, he had to be in the safety of a rock's cleft with eyes hidden so as not to see his glory; after all, God said, no one can see his glory and live (Ex 33:18-23).

But will well see him as he is BECAUSE we will be like him, made into something that no one has known, an existence that we can't yet know.

~Ken 

A more indepth study can be found in this, written by a friend of mine: 

http://www.geocities.com/atimco/destiny.html

Why do I believe it? I encourage you to read and see.

~Ken
 

I aggree that we will be LIKE HIM at the end of the age, when we are transformed from curruptible to incurruptible. However, I think Imisunderstood what He was saying to mean that he thought we would be Gods. In heaven we will be like God, even like Christ is like God, but God will always be The God, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, etc. In fact in heaven we will all worship Him. Yet, we will be LIKE HIM. I understand that. Thank you for clarifying.

God bless! 

Moses did not see God, though, in the sense which you are saying. God told Moses that He would let His glory (some translations say goodness instead of glory) pass by Him (Exedos 33:19), but even that He couldn't completely bare because Moses had to be hidden by His hand in the cleft of the rock. God said in verse 20, that no-one can see His FACE and live.

Yet we (sons of God) will all be like Christ who is like The Father and is able to look upon His face. We shall not all sleep but we will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

just an addition.

Well; Moses did see God, just not his face. He saw God's back.

Well, I would not use the term "Gods" to describe what we will be. It's use "God", the same way I'd use "Man". In the Bible, all descendants of Adam are called "adam", meaning "man". So, the word refers to either the first man or his kind; Adam or adam-kind. The same with how I use the word "God"; remember, too, "Elohim" is a plural word used singularly; so, I see it as a collective term.

~Ken

Ok.

I was making a, not that significant, point that God's word said that no-one has seen God's face and no-one can live having seen His face. The word didn't say that no-one can see God. In fact, we (believers) do see God, because we have Him revealed to us through Holy Spirit and Jesus.

Although John 1:18 says no-one has seen God except for Him who sits by His side. We have been revealed to see God, to know God. However, the word also says that we see through a glass dimly. We will see Him face to face and know Him even as we are known by Him.

BLESSINGS! 

Heya.

Well; what I believe Jesus meant when he said no one has seen the Father except him is that when God was seen as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, it was Jesus the Son that they saw; not the Father; so Jesus has been seen, but not the Father.

The words of Scripture seem to indicate that the Father won't be seen except by those who accept him through his Son. What a promise, eh?

We will be like him for we shall see him as he is!

If belief isn't based on the word it becomes speculation and traditions of man being taught as the doctrine of God/Gospel. If we teach any-one we must make sure that we do extensive research, fast and are convicted of the spirit. God holds his shepherds, his teacher, his pastors to a higher standard and they will be judged according to their responsibilty/stewardship not only in researching but in making sure they are convicted by the holy spirit (whether they have to fast to be 100% positive or not). Anything done not in faith is sin. True Faith which we need to have (especially as teachers) is the 100% belief in the word of God. It comes with responsibility.

God's word is absolute.

Of course God's word is absolute; if I didn't believe that, this conversation would not ensue.

We see the manifestation of Jesus pre-incarnation in that it was in the journey from Egypt (1 Corinthians 10, specifically vs 4). It was Jesus who was with then through this journey.

Hello, Todd. A lot of people have an idea of 100% God, 100% man; but did the Scriptures say anything of the sort? Apart from the illogicalness of it (can something be a 100% sqaure and 100% triangle?), the Scripture doesn't say anything of the sort. If Jesus could hunger, could die, then, he gave up at least that part of his Godhood; and without all parts, he wasn't God. And if Jesus was still 100% God, then he didn't give anything up to live among us mortals; the whole thing was not a sacrifice, no big deal; what kind of love story is that?

No, Jesus didn't need to remain God to be sinless. In fact, that completely ruins the purpose.

Adam was without sin for a while; and with Jesus cut off from Adam through the male line, that wasn't passed down to him, the Second Adam. Since Adam was without sin, it is not impossible that another human be sinless for all his life; if that human being relief on the Father in a way the Adam didn't (not couldn't).

Lastly, the purpose for Jesus becoming human was to experience life as a human so he can be able to sympathize as High Priest (Hebrews 4:15). As God-man, Jesus could simply not have been tempted as we are. As you said, God cannot sin; so, nothing can tempt God.

~Ken

Yes, the word does tell us that Christ was the rock which the people drank. I see it. Was Christ the only member of the Godhead present. Who said that we cannot see His gace and live? Was it not the Father? Did not the disciples see Christ's face after being in his glorified bady? In Revelation, it says that the very heaven and earth fled from the very presence of God, the Father. However, your point cannot be disproved, so I leave it, but let our preaching be done in faith.

It seems that we have drifted from the topic. My apologies to Ken and every-one in the group.

I hear what Todd is saying and what he says sounds very much like it is the truth. He didn't get into much details, but I think it is truth. Ken's views concerning this thing, I also aggree with.

God Bless and cannot wait to read the other posts which will be posted.