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| QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO ASK..so I will |
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If we are growing in the Lord, many of our views, concepts and understanding of God will change as we get to know Him more intimately. We all should reach a point in our lives when we need to reevaluate what we believe. Part of that process is questioning what we have been taught and thought in order that we might see how it lines up with how we view God, His nature and especially His purpose, heart and design in our lives and the world (cosmos) today. I know God does not change, but as we are transformed and renewed in our minds and spirits WE will change.
One of those areas I am presently scrutinizing is satan and his power in our lives. I'm betting others may be wondering about this too. Sue, in her blog http://www.mychurch.org/blog/37886/is-the-devil-laughing got me to thinking, and I made a comment that the devil is God's servant. God in His sovereignty has set limits for all His creation, the devil being one. Even satan in the book of Job recognized this when God set the boundaries of satan's ability to "touch" Job and he did not contest that with God.
So, here a few questions I have today: is the devil God's servant? Nebbuchanezzar certainly was as I believe Pharoh was also (as attested in Rom. 9). God has no equal, or REAL enemy but merely created beings that ultimately must operate within the limits and boundaries in which God has sovereignly determined and willed.
I have many more questions along this line, but for now I ask this: why has God allowed the devil to continue with his work? Jesus came that He might destroy the works of the devil. Did He? What purpose does the slanderer and accuser of the brethren serve now?
Ok, I asked..now what say ye? |
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| To add a comment to "QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO ASK..so I will" |
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| July 26, 2007 |
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Hey Charlie! Just wanted to tackle the "devil as a servant of God" question briefly. I believe agood definition of a servant is one who serves voluntarily. Does the Bible actually refer to Nebuchadnezzar as God's servant? Just b/c God uses someone to accomplish his purposes does not make them a servant. God is sovereign and can use any person (no matter how evil) or occurence (no matter how tragic) to accomplish his good purposes -- ultimately. The devil is like that, he wreaks some havoc for a time, but ultimately he will be dealt with foreverafter. Can we even imagine how short the span of time the devil has to roam is??? Think of it man. Eternity... The devil will not be around for eternity, yet we will!!!!
Anyway, no I would not call the devil God's servant. God bless ya Charlie! ~mike |
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| July 26, 2007 |
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Mike...the Bible does refer to Nebuchadnezzar as God's servant. 25:9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.
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| July 26, 2007 |
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| ah thanks Zach, thou art the man! I actually had a feeling it did. Still doesn't change my mind about Satan though. :-) |
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| July 26, 2007 |
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| Thats what I'm here for ;) |
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| July 26, 2007 |
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Thank you Mike for responding.
Mike wrote: "Does the Bible actually refer to Nebuchadnezzar as God's servant? Just b/c God uses someone to accomplish his purposes does not make them a servant."
25:9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, says the LORD, and for Nebuchadrez'zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these nations round about; I will utterly destroy them, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting reproach. 27:6 Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnez'zar, the king of Babylon, my servant, and I have given him also the beasts of the field to serve him. 43:10 and say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrez'zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and he will set his throne above these stones which I have hid, and he will spread his royal canopy over them. Jeremiah 43:10 RSV In Dan. 4:30 King Neb boasted of Babylon and all (he thought) HE had built. 4:31 While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, "O King Nebuchadnez'zar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,
Later at the end of Daniel 4 this same king, Neb spoke this:
4:34 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnez'zar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives for ever; for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and he does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What doest thou?" 4:36 At the same time my reason returned to me; and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me. 4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnez'zar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven; for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to abase. This is the last we hear of king Neb (God's humbled servant).
There are other examples of servants of the Master who were dealt with (such as Lk. 12:42-48) who were not obedient and faithful, yet servants who were judged just as Pharaoh in Rom. 9:17 and used ultimately to demonstrate God's glory and power. Look at how Rom. chapter 11 ends.
11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 11:30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 11:31 even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him `be' the glory for ever. Amen.
I believe the devil falls into the same category. He is no match for God! God uses him to demonstrate His glory, power and divine nature even today. Satan may be a reluctant, evil servant, but none the less even he knows his boundaries and cannot but help from submitting to God's ultimate will, design and sovereignty.
and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
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| July 26, 2007 |
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First of all....Many thanks for the plug Charlie!
And to answer your question, I do believe satan is a servant to God. He is a fallen servant, but a servant nonetheless. We must not forget that he served God in heaven as an angel. So just because he fell, doesn't change the fact that God is still God over him! So he is a defeated servant; but still a servant!
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| July 27, 2007 |
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I like that Sue, "A servant of God." That sounds better than God's servant. We should all be A servant of God.
I know what I've been taught about the fall of satan and the verses in Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28 and Revelation 12 (to name a few), but I'm not sure you can prove for certain that is what those verses are referring to. It seems to me the whole thing hinges on the word "Lucifer" in Is. 14:12. As far as I know, that is the only reference to that name in the whole Bible. That's pretty shakey ground to build such a high falootin doctrine on don't ya think?
Oh boy..I've done it now. I told y'all I would ask questions others might not ask. I AM asking. HELP! |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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How can you plunder the strong man's house unless you first bind the strong man?
Thats what Jesus said when the Pharisees accused Him of driving out demons by the Prince of demons. What do you think that means? 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
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| July 27, 2007 |
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Hi Zach, good question. Hmmm, I don't know..once more, I know what I was taught it meant. How does that relate to satan being a servant of God or that he was once the "highest angel as Lucifer?"
See, I'm asking again :) |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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| Who was the stong man? |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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I think we're simply tinkering with the English language here. Is Satan a servant of God? If you answer yes, then in a way doesn't the word servant become meaningless? If Satan, all his demons, and every godless person on earth are going to be referred to as servants of God despite their unwillingness to serve, then to call myself a "servant" of God really means nothing. Then you would have to start distinguishing between a "willing servant" and an "unwilling servant" since we've rendered the word "servant" meaningless on its own.
Satan is a servant of God in the sense that he serves God's purposes. We all serve God's purposes. Even inanimate objects are servants in that sense. Satan does not serve God willingly though. He rebelled, and is still in a state of open rebellion. However, if it can be shown in scripture that Satan serves God's purposes willingly, that would be quite a find. And I'm willing to bet that if it's there, Zach can find it!
ps... Satan asking God for permission to cause harm to people doesn't count. |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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Well Zach, I think I know what you're getting at. Let me present another scenario besides the "strong man" being satan. What if Jesus was referring to the religious Jews? What if the "house" He was plundering was Judiasm? What if the "strong man" are religious folks with their dead set concepts that they alone have the truth and hinder those who are trying to enter the kingdom?
Again bro, I'm asking. Can you conceptualize that scenario might be possible? |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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OK Mike, hang with me a minute before you pick up a stone :). I asked in my original blog above why God allows the devil to continue with his work if Jesus came that He might destroy the works of the devil? I think this servant of God thang plays into that. We could also ask why, since we have been born again, does God allow the flesh to hang around? I believe God used these "servants" to draw us to Himself. He uses such "servants" to teach us about ourselves and show us how deperately we need Him. God uses these "servants" to humble us and let us see that when we are weak, we are strong cuz His GRACE is sufficient! Hallaleujah!
He uses the devil to teach us about His sovereignty. No matter how powerful we may believe or have been taught the devil is, he is no match for God and ultimately all his slander and deceitfulness and evil is still under the Lordship of the great I Am!
Why did the Spirit lead Jesus in the wilderness to be tempted of the devil? I think the one who is really laughing is God, and the devil doesn't get it :).
I'm not being mean spirited or sarcastic. I'm looking at this from a different angle. And what I see brings forth great worship! What a MIGHTY God we serve! |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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Mike...I think you are correct about Satan's willingness and I appreciate your confidence in me ; )
Charlie...I can kinda see that but I think it is hard to read it that way in its context. 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [them] out? therefore they shall be your judges. 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
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| July 27, 2007 |
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I know Zach, it's hard to imagine another possibility. But the main subject and point Jesus is making is not about the devil. The religious Jews are the main thought in Jesus' mind. They are being stupid crediting Jesus casting out devils/demons by the power of the Beelzebubba..oops sorry, wrong name ;). Jesus does ask can satan cast out satan (which is rhetorical), but is that the main theme and point Jesus is making? Can a human being on earth today literally cast out satan or bind him? Even Michael spoke, "the Lord rebuke you," referring to satan.
This is what I'm getting at. Satan is OUR advesary, not God's. An advesary is someone of similar power that is attacking you. The outcome could go either way depending upon who is the "STRONGer man." There is no contest with God. He has no advesary. Doesn't that make you rejoice?!! Man, we are on the winning team..and it's NOTHING of us! Now who's laughing :-D? |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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I think it was Clement of Alexandria in the 3rd century who said that God rules the world with two hands: the right one being Christ and the left one being Lucifer.
There is also this mosaic from a baptisry in the 7th century:
The blue angel is of course Lucifer. |
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| July 27, 2007 |
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| Whew, I'm glad I didn't say that! It looks like their flocks are equal :) |
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| July 28, 2007 |
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Charlie, glad we're cool buddy! My point above (which I evidently didn't do such a good job of getting across), which I was also also trying to get across with my initial comment on this blog, is that the important aspect of the word "servant" is one's willingness to debase himself, to serve another's interests willingly. (Zach, thanks for your response, I see you got my thought process!) Consider an observation of Paul's on the topic of servanthood:
2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Jesus took on the nature of a servant willingly. What exactly is the "nature of a servant"? If Satan also took on the nature of a servant, then Jesus' act isn't so laudable. I would contend that Satan hasn't had the "nature of a servant" since he fell from heaven.
Soooo.... yes folks such as Neb... and the devil have served God's purposes, but their unwillingness to do so limits the usefulness of applying terms such as "servant" where we're concerned. We'd do better to consider Jesus' example if we're to maintain that being a "servant" is a particularly good thing for which to strive. ~mike |
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| July 28, 2007 |
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Charlie,
Interesting conversation you've poked at here. You're a man after my own heart!:)
The statement was made above (in a paraphrased way) that we might be just tooling around with the english language here. When you look up the word "servant" you find the definition to basically be "One who serves the needs or duties of another". This whole discussion eventually comes around to a bit of the though process of "Can good exist without evil?". I've always found that an interesting thought. Would the goodness of God be evident to us if Satan and evil did not exist? Would good simply be status quo and average at that point? With that said, is Satan then a "servant" of God because of the need for there to be something in contrast to God's wonderful goodness.
The conversation has started to take a turn towards the idea of many levels of servanthood. Using our own language I tend to agree with that thought. I've seen documents from 200 years ago from families that owned slaves that referred to them as their "servants', though I'm sure no one here would argue that these people were doing the bidding of the "master/owner" of their own free will. We don't like the conversation above because then it seems to water down our thoughts of Christ and eventually our own self perception because we've always called OURSELVES the servant.
If I imagine that there could be a world without evil, or using the scientific "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" idea, I personally find myself saying that Satan is under the control of God which by definition makes him a servant TO God. That doesn't mean that he represents God, but his actions to a certain extent are stilled ruled by HIS master. He cannot step outside of those boundaries.
It's a fascinating thought on the whole. I love this discussion! Thanks, Charlie!
Andy |
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| August 01, 2007 |
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God's glory is the chief end of man. The greatest possibility of bringing Him glory is in a world with good and bad. The devil is very content with sowing evil while the Holy Spirit sows justice and mercy. If the devil wasn't around, evil wouldn't be either causing us to be more like robots than anything else, able to choose only the good, righteous things. God receives glory from our faith, choosing Him in the midst of evil. This is why God said the greatest things to remain forever are "Faith, hope and love." I don't belive these 3 are possible without evil. What's love if you aren't tempted to selfishness? What's hope would their be if all was well? What faith would be valuable if every choice we made led to good things? The devil leaves much room for good! |
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| August 01, 2007 |
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God's glory is the chief end of man. The greatest possibility of bringing Him glory is in a world with good and bad. The devil is very content with sowing evil while the Holy Spirit sows justice and mercy. If the devil wasn't around, evil wouldn't be either causing us to be more like robots than anything else, able to choose only the good, righteous things. God receives glory from our faith, choosing Him in the midst of evil. This is why God said the greatest things to remain forever are "Faith, hope and love." I don't belive these 3 are possible without evil. What's love if you aren't tempted to selfishness? What's hope would their be if all was well? What faith would be valuable if every choice we made led to good things? The devil leaves much room for good! |
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| August 02, 2007 |
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Andy, Shane and Jack, I'm under some time constraints at this time and unable to give thought and time to do y'alls comments justice. One phrase that seems to keep coming up in all this is "God's Sovereignty." In that context God reigns supreme, so we are all His servants or at least sub-servant to Him. But it goes much deeper than that. God has a purpose and ultimate intention and desire in setting all this in motion. God knows the end from the beginning. We don't!
I believe the devil is a major player in God's plan, especially in revealing our "old creation" nature AND our NEW creation nature in Christ.
James says God tempts NO man, but it is man's lusts, so God wants us to see something about ourselves which will eventually draw us closer to Him.
I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone..it kinda does to me :).
Thanks for the comments..please continue. We need to hear both sides too. |
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