Destiny...agreed!
Emiloo, Where is this great persecution of homosexuals? 

Destiny, my sister, this is powerful, but much needed.  So many people shy away from this subject, because the world is so corrupt now and is willing to accept anything to keep people happy.  I totally agree, and as everyone can see it's in the Word.  There is no other way to interpret those verses, or to confuse them.  The Word is very clear.  The thing many can't seem to understand is that nice people will go to Hell if they are caught up in sin upon their departure from this life.  That is not to be harsh, but it is true.  I can be the sweetest nicest person, but if I decide to defy God and live in sin I'm not going to make it.  The other thing is God does not send anyone to Hell, but we send ourselves.  He desires that everyone is saved, but we as humans can't turn away from our own selfish desires to follow God whole-heartedly.  We want to say we are Christians, but still participate in the ungodly things of the world.  To be Crhistian is to be Christ-like so before we try and justify our sinful activity, or others, ask the famous question, "What would Jesus do?".  Great study Destiny.

Be Blessed All!

L33NA

[star!]

Hi Destiny and everyone!

As I've been reading the responses and also James Richards' Grace: The Power to Change, I'm thinking that neither Richards nor we clearly understand the difference between "our" desires and the desires of our "bodies" because of the sin that still dwells in our members.  I am a little concerned that folks may think that because the flesh has a certain propensity, that means the desire is coming from their heart.

I think it's very important to remember that we are told to walk by the Spirit so that we will not carry out the desire of the flesh [Galatians].  We really need to be careful to differentiate between the desire of the flesh and those desires that are in our hearts.  They may, at times, be the same but when we confess our sins then Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.  Since we are in him we can expect that the desires of the new nature are the "real" us that we need to identify with.  Incest, homosexuality, and fornication for that matter, are all works of the flesh...they are not from our new nature in Christ.  Therefore we really need to be careful that we don't "own" those desires as coming from the new "us!"  I don't think Richards makes it clear enough that Christ himself is our life and that He is not changing the flesh but is himself being formed in us to live in our hearts, by faith, and therefore through us.

Blessings!
Craig

Rainbow Minister...SERIOUSLY as a "minister" you are going to try thate tatic of Judge not lest you be Judged??? Just like the rest of the Bible it needs to be taken in context!

"Do not judge, so that you won't be judged.  2 For with the judgment you use,  you will be judged, and with the measure you use,  it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye but don't notice the log in your own eye?  4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and look, there's a log in your eye? 5 Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 Don't give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before pigs,  or they will trample them with their feet, turn, and tear you to pieces.

Jesus is talking about judging others without judging ourselves. If we would hold ourselves to God's standard FIRST, then we can as Jesus said, see clearly to take the speck out of our brother's eye. Without a doubt there is a time and a place that we should challenge someone that is on the wrong path or living a lifestyle of sin. It should only be done in love. What I mean by that is that you have gone before God and examined yourself first? Have you examined your motives? You should be broken for that fellow brother or sister because you know what they are doing is hurting themselves or another and they are not in fellowship with God, I say challenge because when we go to them it should never be with a judgemental attitude, it should be the heart of restoration not condemnation remembering that it was or could be us on the other side one day. What I'm saying is if you can't be broken and desire restoration for that person you have no right going to them at all! (Please read 1 Corinthians 5 to understand judging better.) So as true Christians, let us take our sins to the law of God, and then allow the work of grace through faith grant us repentance and forgiveness. Then we can help our fellow man by telling them the true and unadulterated gospel of Christ"...for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16

BTW know matter how you try to understand or justify it SIN is SIN! We need to stop playing patty cake on these issues and Love what God loves and Hate what He hates! I agree we have vastly different traditions today, but the principals and applications are still the same! God is the same yesterday, today and forever! I am actually quite appalled that a "minister" would make such a comment! This is exactly what is wrong with America! I would encourage you to examine your title before God before you continue to go around proclaiming yourself "Rev."

REALLY??? Do you even read your Bible? While it is certain that God does love –this is the reason Jesus died on the cross– it is equally certain that God not only loves, but that He also Hates.

Some synonyms for hate (to detest) are:  venom, rancor, revenge, malignity, abomination, abhorrence, animosity, abhor, execrate, scorn, despise, look at with loathing, spit upon, anathematize, curse, swear eternal enmity, dislike intensely, shudder at, have enough of, be repelled by, feel repulsion for, have no use for, object to, bear malice, bear a grudge against, spurn, shrink or recoil from, disparage, shun, nauseate, tread or trample underfoot, denounce, resent, curse, be sick or tired of, reject, revolt against, hold cheap, deride, have no taste or stomach for, disfavor, look down upon, feel malice toward, be malevolent, hold in contempt, be disgusted with, view with horror, owe a grudge to.

  Many passages in the New Testament talk of God sending certain classes of people to Hell. God would never send anyone He loved to Hell. When one has ultimately rejected God's love, God stops loving them and places them where they can be of no disturbance to those who have completed their process of acceptance of His love, that is, those who have reached eternal life.

       It should be obvious that God hates evil together with those who have deliberately chosen evil. If one believes that God has not and will not ever send a human being to Hell, then such person is a heretic and is under the penalty of automatic excommunication."Many are invited, but few are chosen." [Mt. 22:14] "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few." [Mt. 7:13-14]

Since Jesus made it clear in the Gospels that over half of the population will go to Hell, then it must be acknowledged that God hates at least 50% of those who die (everyone will die). It should also be obvious that the fallen angels lost God's love and became hated by God who then took vengeance against them.

"Learn then that I, I alone, am God, and there is no god besides me. It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, and from my hand there is no rescue. "To the heavens I raise my hand and swear: As surely as I live forever, I will sharpen my flashing sword, and my hand shall lay hold of my quiver. "With vengeance I will repay my foes and requite those who hate me." " [Dt. 32:39-41

"Honesty is lacking, and the man who turns from evil is despoiled. The LORD saw this, and was aggrieved that right did not exist. He saw that there was no one, and was appalled that there was none to intervene; So his own arm brought about the victory, and his justice lent him its support. He put on justice as his breastplate, salvation, as the helmet on his head; He clothed himself with garments of vengeance, wrapped himself in a mantle of zeal." [Is. 59:15-17]

"Into your hands I commend my spirit; you will redeem me, LORD, faithful God. You hate those who serve worthless idols, but I trust in the LORD." [Ps. 31:5-6]

"Your throne, O God, stands forever; your royal scepter is a scepter for justice. You love justice and hate wrongdoing; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow kings. [Ps. 45:6-7]

"For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, And covering one's garment with injustice, says the LORD of hosts; You must then safeguard life that is your own, and not break faith." [Mal. 2:16]

"Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You {Jesus} loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions"; [Heb. 1:8-9]

"But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I {Jesus} also hate. " ' "Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God." ' [Rv. 2:6-7]

        "As long as the Israelites did not sin in the sight of their God, they prospered, for their God, who hates wickedness, was with them. But when they deviated from the way he prescribed for them, they were ground down steadily, more and more, by frequent wars, and finally taken as captives into foreign lands. The temple of their God was razed to the ground, and their cities were occupied by their enemies." [Jude 5:17-18]

"Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice."  Ecc. 15:13-14

       Just as there is a point in time that God no longer loves –no longer has forbearance– but hates, so it is expected that there be a point in time in which His followers will cease being forebearing and act in accordance with the dictates of justice as guided by the Word of God. While Jesus did not want the common sinner (inadvertent or humanly weak sinner) to be uprooted (one that might repent), His eternal Word also made it clear that there are grave evils that must be dealt with quickly.

"A bruised reed he will not break, a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory." [Mt. 12:20]

And The Cult of DO NOT JUDGE arises again!  Pathetic!  And so...many continue in sin because no one can tell them any different...I am convinced many if not most "Christians" know a few verses and not the consistent theme of the Bible...Read it and weep!

Well...[Danger Will Robinson Danger! from Lost in Space]...have any of you had any homosexual experiences in your life?  As I testified at length elsewhere, I certainly have, along with every other known sexual sin.  But that person has been crucified with Christ and the Craig that is writing now is an entirely new creation in Christ.

Christ does not commit adultery, He does not look on women, or men, to lust after them; He does not lust after children either, nor does He lie, murder, or perform any other work of the flesh.  The issue isn't whether you are straight, gay, bi-sexual, etc.  The issue is whether you are a new creation in Christ or not. A person that defines themselves in terms of what the flesh says they are is not walking by the Spirit.  It doesn't matter what propensity or proclivity we may have been born with the first time...the fact is we are to walk by the Spirit not by what the flesh defines us to be.

Additionally, it appears that this is getting into about being right and wrong and that's the wrong tree.  In my experience it is pointless to debate the issue because a person given to this particular sin will always justify it anyway and things start getting heated.  [Duck Craig...you idiot you're not supposed to draw fire!]

Sincerely,
Craig

Laura~ WE ARE TO JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES!! As TRUE Bible believing Christians we should be able to discern God's will...Let me just say I'm not really surprised you think this way seeing you call yourself Rev. and woman teaching men or having spiritual authority over men are forbidden by God, therefore He doesn't give woman the office of Pastor teacher. So, I guess those that chose to usurp God's order and authority have no problem encouraging others to follow suit! You can get upset and hate me all you want but I didn't say these things the Bible did! Just one more thing none of us know it all we are growing in His Grace and knowledge daily (hopefully) but Gods word is CLEAR and I pitty the person who chooses to deliberately go against it and encourages others to also,or to stay in sin cause God loves them...

I did watch part of the video Debbie, but I'm not sure that's really going to help those caught in these things.  How about your own personal experience?  Have you had to overcome homosexuality or any other sexual perversion as a Christian?  I'm thinking not, just because anyone who struggles with socially unacceptable sins knows that isn't a matter of conforming to a "rule" of behavior.

We sin because we were born in Adam and were therefore, by birth, born slaves of sin.  We experience freedom only by a revelation of the fact that we are now born of the spirit, a new creation in Christ, and the old "us" has really been executed with Christ.  We have to know, in our heart, that we are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ or we will find that our life is one perpetual struggle with various sins and the cycle is one of try-fail over and over.

Victor [in the video and us here] does not need a "rule" he needs a revelation about who he is in Christ--if indeed he really has been born again.  It isn't merely the "behavior" [which is socially unacceptable among Christians] that is the problem, but thoughts and reasoning that holds the man in bondage.  As long as we believe, in our heart, that we still need to overcome sin then we will find ourselves in bondage to it because we are not walking in the truth.  Something has been done about our self [old man], and flesh [crucified], and sin [we are dead to it], but we don't experience that freedom if we don't understand it, don't know about it, and don't mix the word we hear with a faith that is in the heart rather than in the head.  We spend our life trying to overcome something that God in Christ has already overcome.  Putting law on a person will not bring them freedom but into deeper bondage.  We are as dead to the law as we are to sin.  That doesn't mean we are lawless, that means that we no longer look to our self to "do" something but to Christ in us to live his life through us...a new creation.

Until a person struggles with an overwhelming sin they are tempted to believe that it is merely a matter of will power and self control that comes through some kind of commitment.  That is a new years resolution and it doesn't work in the long run...when you get tired of trying you fail.  Freedom has been achieved by Christ and is maintained by dependence upon him along with no expectation of anything good coming from our self--that is our flesh--but a great expectation of good coming from the Person who know dwells in us...Christ who is our life.  All my own expectations for good are expectations that I have for him to be himself through me.  I have no expectations for my flesh to be anything other than it is.

Until Victor, or anyone else, has a revelation of what has been accomplished in Christ they will, at best, be living a life for Jesus rather than letting Jesus live his life through them.  If it is a matter of him being good then it is no longer something that I expect from myself or from other people.  Victor acts the way he does because that is who he is in the flesh.  Victor will not ever be free until he has the revelation that he is no longer in the flesh but in the spirit...if indeed the spirit of Christ dwells in him.  But you cannot put faith in something you do not know and you cannot experience that victory until that understanding is mixed with genuine faith.  Merely appealing to a person to change their behavior is....ah...religion.  It is not about a change in behavior but a change in heart, a new creation, and a renewal of the mind.  We will not ever experience a victory in any area of our lives until we come to the realization and that it has already been accomplished in Christ.  There is nothing to do on our part except renew our minds to those facts and put our faith in Christ.

I don't believe that Victor was having "Good News" preached to him; I believe Victor was having the law preached to him.  He was being told to change his behavior rather than about a Savior who would deliver him from himself and who would be the very goodness of God through him.

Blessings!
Craig

AMEN Stacy...Also Amen Craig!

As to women preaching, Paul also told the women to shut up, and quit speaking in church.....hum..... also to cover their heads when praying.....hum....It is in the Bible only once, and it was in Corinth, where so many problems seemed to plague the church there..

I was just re-reading about the Samaritan woman at the well, but I never did see where Christ told her she was a sinner because she had been married before, and the man she was with now is not her husband....

Christ came for the lost, the sinner.... the homosexual, drug dealer, prostitute, and even the molester. When He died on the cross, He died for all sin. 

The temple sacrifice is no longer needed, we no longer have to be forgiven over and over, as the Hebrews of old, who had to sacrifice every year. For our sacrifice has been done, and He no longer has to be put back on the cross.

We all have to come to Him with an open heart, because when we come as dried clay, un-mold-able, He can't use us.

Even when we know that we know that we know something, we must understand that we don't know the mind of God. 

When we finally come to realize that Christ came for the sick, the weak, the SINNER, we realize that He came for us ALL. 

But when we get to the point that we start looking down on the lost, because they are gay, drug users, pimps, prostitutes, wife-beaters, and even molesters, then we have come to be just like the Pharisees that Christ came AGAINST!

amen dad:

Even when we know that we know that we know something, we must understand that we don't know the mind of God. 

"Even when we know that we know that we know something, we must understand that we don't know the mind of God. "

 AMEN, Gary.

 Angela

As to women preaching, Paul also told the women to shut up, and quit speaking in church.....hum..... also to cover their heads when praying.....hum....It is in the Bible only once, and it was in Corinth, where so many problems seemed to plague the church there..

:-D  Spectrum and everyone,

I'd say that self-denial is denying all hope in myself to save me from myself.  Only then am I in a position to present my body as a living sacrifice, which is my reasonable service of worship, to God.  Self-denial is not asceticism and severe treatment of the body...that's the elementary principles of the world and Colossians tells us that's completely useless against fleshly indulgence.  That's because that kind of denial is flesh attempting to overcome flesh.  If we walk by the spirit...what?  So if we don't walk by the spirit then what?  So the spirit lusts against the flesh and the flesh against the spirit so that...what?  So that we are not free to do as we please.  THAT is self-denial.

Blessings!
Craig

I like that..."Keep it simple pimple." lol

 Craig, the flesh is always at war with the godly side of me. This is real. We have to daily die to self and pick up our crosses and follow Christ. 

Of course Destiny...that's why we groan and are looking for the redemption of our bodies...their transformation at the coming of Christ. ;-)

Blessings!
Craig

When we strive in ourselves to be better, to keep from sinning, we are working to pay a debt, and thus taking out grace.

But when we accept that in us we do not have the ability to fulfill any of the Law, and rely only on the Holy Spirit to work in us, then we are under grace. For our righteousness is not by following the Law, but is ONLY by faith.

Spectrum: I totally agree, it is by the Holy Spirit, renewing our minds, as you wrote above..... This is what Paul calls being "renewed in the spirit of our minds;  It is when WE step in and try to force the fruit to grow we fail.

For by allowing the Holy Spirit to take control, and He will grow the fruits in us, we will produce the fruits of the Spirit.

If we try in ourselves, then all we produce is corrupted flesh, an imitation to the true.

    In my own power, no matter how much I try, I will NEVER produce the Fruit of the Spirit. If I were keep the entire Law, I am still in the flesh. And the fruit I will produce will be rotten. look at the Pharisees, they knew the Law, but they could NOT produce the fruit of the Spirit.