Hey, this looks familiar!

This part speaks to me today: lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you]

Put off ALL bitterness! How? By changing and becoming like little children!

Yes, as little children, when I correct my son, he is so upset with me at the time, but latter in the day, he gives me a hug and lets me know how much he loves me. We too need to be like that, not only with the Lord, but with each other too.

How many times do we see our kids get into arguments with their friends, and then the next day, they can't wait to get outside and play with their friend who the day before had said how much they were upset with the friend. Kid have not learned to hold grudges, and we need to un-learn that. 

Us adults tend to get upset and hold onto the bitterness, but the children forget and forgive so quickly!

Us adults tend to get upset and hold onto the bitterness, but the children forget and forgive so quickly!

Yeah, just like with our own children; it proves that we love them.  In this case it proves that we are not only children, but also loved...in a practical experiential sense.  We know we are loved by looking at what God did in sacrificing his own Son.  The discipline is more up close and personal: it's hands on.  The cross is more like what happened to our big brother in a sense (although I know we were in him).  :-)

Ephesians 4:31 (ESV)
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Craig

Jesus was being chastened by God when He endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself.  We too are chastened by God but not for misbehaving but because we would "live godly in Christ Jesus".

All my life, I'd heard (and understood) that when bad stuff happened to you that it was God.  I was sold out to Jesus and that interpretation sounded right so I believed it.  Interesting story: one of the things I distinctly remember saying to God during the time I was falling away, "Leave me the <blank> alone!"

Somehow, the thought that God was putting me through bad situations didn't serve me well when I was critically examining whether to stay or to leave.  Mentally, I wanted to escape from God in order to avoid the pain that the bible clearly said He was inflicting on me.

That was then.  This is now.  Today, thanks to some pretty great teachers, I understand that, outside of persecution, God is never responsible for our pain.  This is the New Covenant, God's not getting mad at me.  Today, I believe Isaiah's prophecy:

The first time I did this "Jesus thing", I was not aware that Isaiah had made such a prophecy about our time.  Because of that ignorance, the deceiver was able to convince me that God would cause bad stuff in my life in order to make me a better person.  What a dope I was.

Jack Nicholson, in the movie, As Good As It Gets, said to Helen Hunt, "You make me want to be a better man".  Helen Hunt wasn't responsible for Jack Nicholson's misery yet she inspired him to want to be a better person.  God doesn't make us better people by causing chaos and misery in our lives.  His mercy endureth forever.  Helen Hunt's reply was, "That's maybe the best compliment of my life".  I think that's how God must feel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbyP8gbb1hw

So if both Isaiah 54 and Hebrews 12 are true, how do we reconcile them?  Can they be reconciled?  Do we need to remove the book of Isaiah from the bible (or just the 54th chapter)?  Is God responsible for our misery because we are such rotten sinners or is something else going on?

Rob 

Rob, you are adept at turning scripture to fit your philosophy, if you took the time to read the scripture, you would see the writter is NOT talking about Christ in here, but rather mentioned Him, for how could Christ be "sons" plural,

He also writes every son He loves  He scourges, yet, you say this is about Christ.

The writter also says---  shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?... is this not to us?

You seem to want to tear out much of the bible, or at least say if Paul did not write it, then is is trash.... I have some news for you, Paul is not the Savior.

I am tired of having one way conversations with you, and your philosophy is really tiresome, so you can add me to those that have blocked you...... 

The way I see the Father,  He has a long term plan, and sometimes His long term plan for us includes times of discomfort, pain, misery, and yes even death.

He sees the end game, what is best for His kingdom, what is best for my salvation.

I may WANT the million dollars, and He already knows my heart, that I would probably fall back into my worldly lusts and desires. But if I ask long enough, with persistence, He will give me what I want, just to show me that I am a spoiled little brad, throwing tantrums every time I don't get things my why.. when I want it.

So too with pain and suffering in the world, of the little girl that was stuck in the car, burning.... Whatever could be His end game there????

What got triggered when someone saw it, did it inspire someone to go and help? Did it cause a family to grow stronger in prayer? We may never know in this world, but I am confident that when Christ returns, all of our questions will be answered.

Okay.  Let's start with the real fact that God is a long-term God.  Is there anything in the bible that might contradict that assumption?

Do the scriptures teach that God knows our hearts?  I think it does but I can also think of one scripture that says that God tests our hearts.  but keep in mind that "one scripture does not a theology make".

If I see a person whose life I could definitely save and I let them die anyway, the law says that I am guilty of negligent homicide.  Am I held to a higher standard than God?   Is there anything in the scriptures that might suggest that God cannot just do whatever He wants on planet earth?

I think we have the beginning of a good discussion.  If I play the devil's advocate then please know it's so that we can come to a reasonable theology that will help an unbeliever glorify God.  Most people cannot abide an insensitive God - short-term or long.

And the bible says that Jesus is a faithful High Priest who is touched with the feeling of our infirmity.

Does God care if I go broke?  Does God care if I get into an automobile accident?  Does God care if my kid goes to jail?  Does God care about my little unimportant problems?  I think the bible says that God cares about us both long-term and short.

Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead.  Why?  Was it for Lazarus' sake?  No. The bible says that Jesus felt bad for Lazarus' loved ones.  Lazarus eventually died again (we assume).  I think God has demonstrated that He cares about us short-term.

I think your last paragraph (above) is about on balance with what the church teaches - that God permits horror so that we'll grow closer to Him.  I have a bit of a problem with that, however.  Call me whatever you will but I think God is above such tactics.  I mean, look at Jesus.  Did He EVER terrorize anyone so that they would get closer to God?  I just don't see it.  Jesus RELIEVED suffering everywhere He went.  He always healed (if there was faith for healing).  He blessed people financially (He told the disciples to let down their nets).  He fed the hungry (loaves and fishes).  He clothed the naked (Gadarene demoniac).

I think that the problem of suffering can and should be figured out.  I think we know enough about the nature of God to make certain assumptions.  Let's pursue it.

Rob

Ok, Rob... true, He does care if you or I go broke, or get in an accident.

But let’s look at this another way too, if I am drinking while driving, and call myself a Christian, now, lets just say it was a couple of beers or whatever, and I wreck my car, was it God's fault that I did NOT wreck? Of course not, it was my own fault.

If I get caught up in a gambling problem, and spend all my rent money on the lottery, is it God's fault that I got kicked out of my house.... NO...

Now to Lazarus,  Jesus could have healed him before he suffered and died. We don't know what he died of, but lets say for arguments’ sake, that it was a terrible death. Why did Jesus allow him to suffer and die? Was it because He could not heal him? Could He not have know at His last visit with Lazarus that he was sick?

Here is another example, the beggar that Peter and John healed at the temple, this man sat daily at the temple gates, why didn't Christ heal him, How many times did Christ see this man? Could He have known that this man would get healed later on by His own disciples?

Alright, sir.  Let's dispose of any and all self-inflicted catastrophes.  The law of sowing and reaping is still in effect.  If I live like a fool, odds are, I shall die like a fool.  God's hands are clean in the case of fools.

If we take the gospel of John at face value, Jesus did not know that Lazarus was sick until people from Bethany reported it to Him.  But I have heard the question asked, "Why didn't Jesus heal Lazarus as soon as He heard of Lazarus' illness?"

To answer that question, we have to examine all of the other healings Jesus performed.  In each recorded case, someone requested healing.  When the people told Jesus that Lazarus was sick, they did not request that He heal him.  In fact, there John 11 does not give any indication that the people even hoped Jesus would heal Lazarus.  Faith is the substance of things hoped for.  The scriptures show that God does not respond in an absence of faith.

There are arguments that say that Lazarus was already dead by the time they found Jesus (who was on-the-lamb in a city "beyond the Jordan").  Jesus was in hiding but Lazarus' people eventually found Him.  Jesus finally did heal Lazarus but it was an extreme healing because he'd been dead for four days.

So given the gospel of John at face value, I cannot see where Jesus "permitted" Lazarus to suffer a terrible death.  Jesus didn't even know Lazarus was sick.  Jesus didn't allow Lazarus to suffer and die any more than he permits any of us to suffer and die.  If nobody's asking, nobody's receiving.

I just thought of this but the raising of Lazarus was in John 12.  John 14 starts a long quote of Jesus telling his disciples to "ask in my name".  Ask and receive that your joy may be full.  Ask and receive that the Father may be glorified.  Ask in my name. If you love me, keep my commandments.

What was missing from the Lazarus event was the asking.  Jesus eventually had to talk them into it.  What a drag.

Regarding the beggar: he too had to be talked into his healing.  "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give unto thee", I believe were the words that preceded healing.  Whether Jesus ever saw this particular beggar is anybody's guess.  Jesus had people thronging Him for healing.  Peter and John had no such audience.  Jesus did very few healings on His own.  Did Jesus walk right by someone who had to be talked into it?  It's a distinct possibility.

Rob

why would Mary and Martha send word that Lazarus was sick, if not to seek a heeling? Then Jesus says that this sickness if so the He may be glorified.

Joh 11:4  When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

You said the Jesus did not know that Lazarus was sick, but yet somehow He knew he was dead...

Joh 11:11  These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

The He says that He was glad that Lazarus had died, so that the disciples could have stronger faith.

Joh 11:15  And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

Martha then said to Jesus, if you had been here Lazarus would not have died, sounds like they were expecting a healing to me.

Joh 11:21  Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

Gary,

Well done!  You're making excellent points!

We who believe that Jesus was 100% against sickness and infirmity have to scratch our heads at Jesus' reaction to the report of Lazarus' illness.  Why the heck did Jesus hang out TWO DAYS in that town beyond the Jordan?  That seems COMPLETELY out of character.

We have to take this account at face value.  There's no indication that Jesus knew that Lazarus was sick (from the text).  Jesus, remember, had other things on His mind at the time.  In John 8, He narrowly escaped a stoning.  In John 9, He healed the man born blind, which caused no small stir.  In John 10, He flees to the area beyond the Jordan because His mouth got Him in trouble again.

His last reported location was Jerusalem.  He escaped to "beyond the Jordan" and some people followed Him there but I doubt there was time for Lazarus' people (in Bethany) to get a bead on Jesus.  We don't know how long it took the scouting party to find Jesus but if it took a couple days, that would have meant Lazarus was already dead by the time they reported his illness to Jesus.

We don't know the timing of any of this, however.  We have to take the text at face value.  Jesus heard the news that Lazarus was sick and He took no action.  That is VERY strange and uncharacteristic behavior.

We know that Jesus knew that Lazarus had died because the bible said that He knew.  We can't assume that Jesus knew he was sick because it came as news to Him - according to the scriptures.

Jesus said that Lazarus' sickness was not unto death and yet, Lazarus might already have been dead by the time Jesus received the news.  Jesus was straining for information from above.  He knew that Lazarus was going to live through this and so He might have assumed he was not going to die.

How else can you interpret it?  In verse 4, Jesus said his sickness was not "unto death" which implies another garden variety (by this time) healing.  But instead of making a bee-line to Bethany, Jesus stays put for two days.  C'mon, Jesus!!! Time's awastin'!

The next information Jesus gets is that Lazarus is dead.  Jesus is trusting the Father for guidance on this one but the Father has let things go pretty far.  There was a part of Jesus that was "glad" that He wasn't there.  He was glad for their sakes - but not His.

You correctly point out that Martha assumed Jesus would come and heal her brother but the scripture is clear, no one asked Jesus to heal him.

This is an important aside.  Christians walk around and assume God will take care of them because they belong to Him.  And while there is some truth in that, we don't see Jesus making such assumptions Himself or teaching us that we should assume such things.  The exception to this being, food and clothing ("Take no thought for your life...")

When it comes to the supernatural, we have to get in gear and co-operate with the kingdom of God.  Jesus said that if we have faith, we will speak to the mountain and it will obey us.  We have to have faith and we have to have vocal cords or the mountain will not move.

If we want healing, we have to ask for healing.  God wants to give us the desire of our hearts but He wants us to ask.  In the absence of asking, there is no obligation to give.  If we want the gift of healing, I'd assume that we should ask for it.

I have posted angels (ministering spirits) around my house and car to keep these properties safe from harm.  Jesus never did that because Jesus never owned a house or car.  Paul never did that for the same reason.  We have been promised protection from harm but this is an area that requires our active participation. In fact, that would make a good blog topic.  What things are automatic and what things do we have to ask for?

Where were we...?  Oh yeah.

Jesus was glad for His disciple's sake but He Himself was a little torn up about it.   In fact, this event occasioned one of the shortest verses in the bible, "Jesus wept".  Jesus must have felt terrible for not responding right away.  He felt the sorrow of Mary and Martha and all the mourners.  Jesus probably wanted a "do-over" in the worst way.  But the bible does not say, Jesus wanted a do-over.

Jesus handled the situation in His own style.  Lazarus had indeed died (contrary to Jesus' prediction in verse 4) but Jesus raised him from the dead.

We take away from this event all manner of theology.  Those who believe that God is not touched with the feeling of our infirmities exclaim, "Aha!  Jesus let Lazarus die!  Take THAT you 'Jesus always healed' people!"

People who see this very strange behavior want to make all kinds of excuses for Jesus.  "Jesus didn't know", "Lazarus was already dead", etc.

I personally think Jesus dropped the ball and He knew it.  I think Jesus felt awful for staying when He should have left.  I think this is one of the reasons "Jesus wept".  Jesus said that Lazarus' sickness was not unto death but then he died.  I think Jesus misinterpreted whatever revelation He was receiving from God.  But that's just my personal spin.  You cannot get any of that theology from the bible. 

I think that John might have been teaching that "If you believe, you will see the glory of God" no matter how bad things get.  The opposite of that is true as well, "If you don't believe, you won't see the glory of God". Beyond that, I'm not willing to surrender anything more.  I'll give you, "Jesus screwed up" but I won't give you "Jesus knowingly allowed Lazarus to die".

What do you think?

Rob

WHAT, dropped the ball???? So Christ was not perfect? He had ooops? I think not. If He had an ooops, what other ooops are out there? Can Christ make a mistake? This is what you are saying.

If we read the text as written, and dump all the intellectual crap, all the theological mumbo-jumbo, then we will read what it says. 

Way too often, man does not like what is written, so he twists his mind a certain way so the Word matches his beliefs, instead of reading what is written, and taking it for what it says.

Gary,

If Jesus tripped going up the stairs, would that make Him any less perfect?  Jesus was a man like you and I (except w/o sin).  We know Jesus did stuff He wasn't supposed to.  Staying behind at the temple while His parents went back home was probably not the best idea.

Jesus' mouth got Him in trouble (serious trouble) quite a few times.  Walking through a crowd that is ready to kill you is an escape mechanism that had to be employed because He cheesed them all off.  Some might consider that a slight miscalculation on Jesus' part.  Of course, it might have been on purpose (take my own mouth, for example).

Lara, That's fine as far as it goes but I myself have gotten under condemnation thinking along those lines.

There's a lady I go to church with who said that when something bad happens, all she has to do is take a look around and take inventory of the sin in her life.  She identifies the hardship as discipline from God because she's so sinful.  Buddy, if that ain't condemnation then there's no such thing as condemnation.

Fear of punishment is not a tactic God uses under the New Covenant.  (Keeping in mind that we can screw our own lives up by engaging in foolish things.  Let's assume that we all understand the law of sewing and reaping.)

God, according to Hebrews 12, doesn't discipline us for the sin in our lives, He disciplines us like He disciplined Jesus ("For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners...").  The chastening of the Lord and persecution are closely linked (see Hebrews 11).

That would be like Josiah getting all A's on his report card and the kids in the playground calling him "egghead".  The Hebrew's writer links persecution to "the chastening of the Lord".  Ain't that weird?

In order for us to interpret it the other way, we MUST (of necessity) take our eyes off Jesus.  But what saith the scripture?

"Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith..."

If we think that Hebrews 12 is talking about God disciplining us because of the sin in our lives then we have to assume that there was also sin in Jesus' life that God had to discipline Him for.  Or (as the church has done) we have to take our eyes off of Jesus and put them on ourselves.

"Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."

Is the Hebrew writer talking about personal sin in our lives?  Most teachers claim that he is.  But what saith the scripture?

"For consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds."

The point of Hebrews 12 was not to teach us that God spanks us when we misbehave.  The point of Hebrews 12 is to teach us that persecution is the result of our desire to live godly in Christ Jesus - lest we become weary and faint in our minds.  The battle is won or lost on the battlefield of the mind.  If we think that God is spanking us for all the sin in our lives, we will eventually grow weary of that kind of treatment and fall away.  And that, my friends, is the story of my life.

The "loving punishment of God" for all our imperfections tends to work against us, psychologically.  The belief that we have to be 100% perfect in order for God to stop beating us works to send us into the arms of Satan who would NEVER treat us so badly.  Satan accepts us with all our imperfections and wants to give us the desires of our hearts.  God demands perfection or He'll wail the tar out of us - as any "loving father" would do...

That theology is directly responsible for my ultimate rejection of God so many years ago.  People are designed for pleasure, not punishment.  I couldn't take the abuse (although many of my contemporaries evidently could - and do).  In order for some of us to make it, we MUST believe God is a god of tender mercy.

Rob

P.S.  I wish they'd bring back the spell checker!!!

I agree with you Rob, it is all in the mind.... it is the desire.... as Paul wrote in Romans:

7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7:14-23

We must come to the understanding that we have already been forgiven, at the cross, for all of our sins, past. present and future... it is only the desire to do better (with the power of the Holy spirit), which is the difference between the un-saved and the saved.

If the Lord were disciplining us for our sins, then that means that He had not forgiven them.

I have another blog, that deals with this...

We must come to the understanding that we have already been forgiven, at the cross, for all of our sins, past. present and future... it is only the desire to do better (with the power of the Holy spirit), which is the difference between the un-saved and the saved.

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/457547/Spiritually-torn-on-an-issue

Let us all "yield to the right of way" brothers and sisters and all else will be "all right in our lives". (smile) and have a Holy Spirit filled day.

ihsallthetime

That is what makes the difference, the Holy Spirit, He places within us a new heart, one that seeks His will, the desire and power to live as He would have us live.

We will always fall short of perfection (physically), but Spiritually, we have conquered. The battle is in the mind (heart), not the flesh.

The flesh will always be flesh, subject to the law of sin.

We will always fall short of perfection (physically), but Spiritually, we have conquered. The battle is in the mind (heart), not the flesh.

ihsallthetime

See here is the difference... I never said "when we want to sin"

He gives us a new heart, one that seeks Him, one that desires to please Him.

I don't want to sin, but I realize that because I am human, I will sin. Until the day I die, I will ALWAYS be under the law of sin, in the flesh.

But we don't live in the flesh, we live in the spirit, the spirit desires to please the Lord.

He said we must worship Him in spirit, it is a spiritual battle we fight. No one of flesh and blood.

Yvelisse

Yes, we are justified before the Lord, ALL of our sins are forgiven, past and future.

When we turn to the Lord, we start living in the spirit, no longer condemned, because ALL has been forgiven.

As to what happens to different people, He allows different things to happen, He will use all things to bring glory to His name.

Gary,

You wrote:
If the Lord were disciplining us for our sins, then that means that He had not forgiven them.

Wow!  Amen, brother!  This is HUGE!

There are sins and there are imperfections.  God cannot be disciplining us for our sins because that would mean that He's holding our sins against us.

The message of the gospel of peace short-circuits the doctrine that "God will get you if you step out of line".  For God to behave that way, He would have to suspend the finished work of Jesus.

Obviously, our own foolishness can cause untold heartache but that's on us - not on God.

We live in a fallen world.  Stuff happens.  If we are sober and vigilant then we will speak to our mountains.  If we have faith we will command our future.  If God be against us, who can be for us, ya know?

If God is the cause of this storm in my life then I would be opposing the will of God to command a different reality.  Jesus showed us that there is no problem too big or circumstance too hopeless that obedience to His commandment will not fix.  Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (Jn. 14:15).

Believing that what we SAY will come to pass is how we affect change.  Death and life are in the power of the tongue.  We can speak good things (like, "Mountain, be thou taken up and cast into the sea!") or we can speak negative things (like, "I'm sick", or "I'm broke", or "life is hard").  Jesus said that we can have what we say (not to say what we have).

I have to go now.  There are a few mountains I need to speak to today.

Love,
Rob