Mike n Laura
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Blessed are the PASSIVE
||July 23, 2009|886 reads
 

To add a comment to "Blessed are the PASSIVE"
Becky Sutherland
July 23, 2009
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too scared to read that blog
mstovall2003
July 23, 2009
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Jude and Sarah
July 23, 2009
 

Christ was not teaching passive behavior, he was teaching proper attitudes of the heart.

 

Christ was by no means passive, nor were his disciples. Should the apostle Paul have been more passive? What about peter? Paul exhibited these attitudes, but was he being passive when he preached until people passed out? Or when he riled the people so greatly that they stoned him, or nearly pulled him apart?

 

Why teach passivity? The last thing we need in the “church” in America is more dead pew warmers. Never has the church been as active as it was in the first century. I believe also, never has been as strong.


Romans 10:14
'How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Debbie
July 23, 2009

Just to pick one, Mike...I hunger and thirst for righteousness as much as anyone...
No surprise...I agree with Jude...the LAST thing we need is more passivity...

But as to the passive attitude...the Islamists and communists are hoping for just that attitude...makes it easier for them...

KEN
July 23, 2009
Hi Mike~
To me, the summary of You blog is,
"It seems passive Christians are indeed blessed, as much if not more than their more assertive brethren. I just hope they know it." Most Christians, in my experience,  seem to be more the 'Lamb',  than the 'Lion'.  I do know also that in the final analysis, in the culmination of all things, to be able to get the job done, that it took a Lion to do it.  Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.  ( ! )
The very angels of The Lord God of Host cried because no one (passive) was able to do the job.  Now arrives the very aggressive Saints of God.   Then to sum up how that old serpant and dragon, satan, will finally be defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire, well,
passivity 'don't' get the job done!  Read below how we are all going to finally be able to be free from satan, the beast, the false prophet, death, hell and the grave:  Revelation 5:11-14

11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



Prayer Warrior For God
July 23, 2009
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Great one Mike. :)
Debbie
July 23, 2009
Mike, we wouldn't have the freedom to homeschool if the forerunners had been passive...
KEN
July 23, 2009
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Donna S
July 23, 2009
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mom n daughter
July 23, 2009
This blog has a tone of compulsive retaliation....it seems that this blog is once again geared towards those that don't believe the way that certain groups and individuals want them to on MC.

I agree with Megan...of course(she is my child).  Thank God that Peter, J the B, Jesus, our Founding Fathers, to name a few did not have the benefit of your vast knowledge of the scripture...
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Ken, good observation wrt lamb vs lion. I would want to come across more lamb-like to my neighbors than lion-like.

BUT..... in response to J&S, and Debbie, and Megan, and Robin (whose comments I appreciate!)...

Although the Lord lauded these 8 apparently passive qualities (clearly they are passive & restrained in nature, in contrast to the opposite qualities listed), Jesus was by no means a "passive" person himself, or a "do-nothing" person, as we all know! Neither was Paul or Peter, or any other great leader of the faith. 

Heck, later in the same address, Jesus says "let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." Good needs involve action, not passivity! :-)

So no, I am not advocating "do-nothing" believers, or passivity 100% of the time. (J&S, I think I agree, it's less behavior than attitude, although attitudes impact behaviors, right? btw, good comment!) I also wouldn't advocate passivity in every situation. But I think that I would lean more in the direction of passivity, at least initially, until my Father instructs (or the Holy Spirit leads) otherwise. A couple of examples:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' (Retaliation is the natural human instinct! Aggressive, isn't it?)

But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Whoa, that sounds rather PASSIVE, doesn't it? Is that still true for us today?)

And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. (Again, passive, when human nature cries out for assertiveness.)

Just a couple examples from scripture.It seems, at least sometimes, maybe more often than we'd like to admit, God calls us to be passive, when our nature begs for decisive action, or an aggressive response. :)

KEN
July 23, 2009
Amen Mike.  I certainly would rather come across more lamb like, than lion like to my true Brethren and Neighbors.  Amen.
Jennifer Huffman Dominey
July 23, 2009
First I would like to say I think "Passive" is the wrong word.  As Jess stated, " Passive- 2. not resisting; yielding or submitting to the will of another."  This does not in any way shape or form explain anything about the Beatitudes.  Being Meek, Merciful, Hungering for Righteousness, etc is not passive.  Mercy has nothing to do with not resisting or yeilding to the will of another and the rest of the Beatitudes lie in similiar state.  The only One I'm going to yield my will to is Jesus and His commands.  What happened to "Be strong and couragious in the Lord!"  I'm too busy being passive so I don't have the spiritual muscles to be strong much less stand couragiously...sorry, you can forget it.  This pregnant Mama is raising two boys and about to add another child to the family.  God has called me and my husband to raise WARRIORS for Him not passive, mouth shut, don't want to hurt peoples feelings by telling them the truth adults.  What would happen if Christians actually spoke the truth (in love of course) but the TRUTH!  I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where Jesus or any of the disciples or apostles fluffed the truth so as to make it easier to digest.  Passiveness has to do with feelings and emotions and quite frankly our society is so full of this it is sickening.

Question:Should I apologize now for coming across harsh so as not to hurt anyones feelings or should I stand firm in the Truth?   
Brother Todd
July 23, 2009
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Ghandi was quoted as saying that he was almost persuaded to become a Christian after reading the sermon on the mount, but then he observed Christians.   (That is sad)  However, I see His teaching more as an off set of the Pharisaical legalistic teaching and practices that were going on during that day. What do you think?
Jeff and Lynn
July 23, 2009
Why do people who wonder why quoting scripture makes people angry, get angry about people quoting scripture?
And I agree with Jude... this scripture is about attitudes.  Bingo!
KEN
July 23, 2009
May I Please Place a Former Comment in the 'Marquee Lights'?  This is so very much on-target and rates multiple readings: ( I do, though, think 'Passive' conveys the idea, in this case).

First I would like to say I think "Passive" is the wrong word.  As Jess stated, " Passive- 2. not resisting; yielding or submitting to the will of another."  This does not in any way shape or form explain anything about the Beatitudes.  Being Meek, Merciful, Hungering for Righteousness, etc is not passive.  Mercy has nothing to do with not resisting or yeilding to the will of another and the rest of the Beatitudes lie in similiar state.  The only One I'm going to yield my will to is Jesus and His commands.  What happened to "Be strong and couragious in the Lord!"  I'm too busy being passive so I don't have the spiritual muscles to be strong much less stand couragiously...sorry, you can forget it.  This pregnant Mama is raising two boys and about to add another child to the family.  God has called me and my husband to raise WARRIORS for Him not passive, mouth shut, don't want to hurt peoples feelings by telling them the truth adults.  What would happen if Christians actually spoke the truth (in love of course) but the TRUTH!  I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where Jesus or any of the disciples or apostles fluffed the truth so as to make it easier to digest.  Passiveness has to do with feelings and emotions and quite frankly our society is so full of this it is sickening.

Question:Should I apologize now for coming across harsh so as not to hurt anyones feelings or should I stand firm in the Truth?
   
KEN
July 23, 2009
Oh, by-the-way, that was Jennifer Huffman Dominey 's  Comment that I quoted.  {Bro-ken}
Joey     R
July 23, 2009
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When I think of passive, I think of what my grandma taught.

She always said, "Joey, you get more flies with honey" and "turn the other cheek".

I've lived by these words, and I would use the word passive to describe myself.  I don't get riled up very often, and when I do...  it is normally because someone has been treated badly.

I'm a strong christian woman but I CHOOSE to be passive, that is... I choose to be gentle rather than harsh.  I choose to encourage rather than to bicker. 

Every day, I make choices, and I hope that my choices are the ones that Jesus would approve of.

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Joey, bless you, my somewhat passive friend! You know, the more time I spend w/the Lord in the word and in prayer, the less harsh, reactive, aggressive, hasty (etc.) I become. Instead I find myself more patient (passive), peaceful (passive), kind and gentle (comparatively passive), and self-controlled (restrained, sometimes passively so). I find tender Christians to be absolutely delightful!

Todd, excellent point! You said "I see His teaching more as an off set of the Pharisaical legalistic teaching and practices that were going on during that day." The commentary I've been reading also drew comparisons between Jesus' teaching and the Pharisees' teaching and practices. The most obvious statements alluding to the Pharisees, as I see it, are blessed are the pure in heart (Pharisees were more interested in outward righteousness), and blessed are the poor in spirit (the Pharisees were very proud and self-assured.) Thank you for your input, it is valued!

Liz Bell
July 23, 2009
Blessed are the peacemakers those who give all to try and calm the storms
that Satan stirs up
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Thanks Liz! Have I stirred things up today, or am I being persecuted for righteousness' sake? lol

Megan, great scripture!! You were alluding to:

Isaiah 40:31 (New International Version)

 

 31 but those who hope in the LORD
       will renew their strength.
       They will soar on wings like eagles;
       they will run and not grow weary,
       they will walk and not be faint.

When I treat people nicely, w/dignity and respect, even turning the other cheek, I do soar on wings like eagles! (Certainly not my own wings... I don't have any!)

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Jennifer, thank you for your comment! At the moment I don't have time to fully respond, but I do have a question (an honest one). You said, "The only One I'm going to yield my will to is Jesus and His commands." Your allegiance is admirable! And, may I ask what you do with this: "as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (Eph 5:24)  Though the question may seem a little off track, the point of Jesus' teaching in the Beatitudes just might have something to do with how important "my will" is to me.

Brother Todd
July 23, 2009
Mike, they all address the Pharisees, that is why the crowd marvelled that Jesus spoke with such authority.  He didn't preface this by saying, so and so said this or our tradition is this, rather He spoke on behalf of God and totally turned the Pharisee's teachings and practices on their ears. 
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

No disagreements there, Todd. Was just subjectively observing that those 2 were a bit more obvious to me than the others. 

 

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Jeff/Lynn, I didn't see anyone getting angry about quoting scripture here?

Robin, this blog was honestly not geared toward any individual or group in particular on MyChurch. It was more or less a response to something someone once said to me, which has stayed in the back of my mind. Sorry if the tone bothered you, it was completely unintentional.

Prentiss United Methodist Church
July 23, 2009
Mike and Laura, God always give you an incredible and stirring insight on His Word.....Jesus is the best example of the power of passivity....We are never bolder than when we are humble...some never learn this lesson. I am glad you have...LY in Christ! Pastor Chuck
Joey     R
July 23, 2009
Thought this might be helpful....

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus.
-Philippians 2:5
Jeff and Lynn
July 23, 2009
Mike n Laura,
I wasn't referring to your blog sounding angry; I really enjoyed it.  I was referring to some of the comments about your blog.  I also admire the way you seem to speak honestly and yet humbly, which is what I think the whole point is.  We have to be bold in our resolve to stand firm in our faith, while we maintain attitudes of meekness, etc.  And boy, is that hard to do!  What comes to my mind is "wise as serpents, harmless as doves," though I don't have time at the moment to look it up.  God bless!
mom n daughter
July 23, 2009
Mike...you haven't made your position clear. It seems that you are waffling on whether passivity is the way to go or not depending on who's comment you are answering.  You stated that (see below) that Jesus was by no means a passive person....so if He is our example....then why are you advocating something that goes against the example Jesus shows us?
Although the Lord lauded these 8 apparently passive qualities (clearly they are passive & restrained in nature, in contrast to the opposite qualities listed), Jesus was by no means a "passive" person himself, or a "do-nothing" person, as we all know! Neither was Paul or Peter, or any other great leader of the faith. 
Joey     R
July 23, 2009

It's pretty sad when all you have to do all day is bicker over the word PASSIVE.

Jeff and Lynn
July 23, 2009

I don't think they are waffling.  I think they are having an open, honest discussion, taking into consideration what everyone has to say, and "showing proper respect to everyone."  :)

GraceAlone
July 23, 2009
Ghandi was a murderer
Joey     R
July 23, 2009
Mike does a wonderful job.  He has the patience of Job.
Lara Leger
July 23, 2009
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  Interesting thought.  Wise as serpents, harmless as doves.  When God calls us forth to "speak up", I am sure even the more passive believers, loving Jesus, shall stand up and be heard when it needs to be done.  :-)
Tanya
July 23, 2009
JOEY, I agree with you!!
Cindy
July 23, 2009
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Great blog Mike! It's very thought provoking.......there is a fine line between passiveness and aggressiveness.......in the middle is assertiveness...most people are either passive or aggressive and the agressive consider the passive weak. I, personally, was driven away from God by an agressive person, yet a passive person led me to the Lord :)
CraftsReen
July 23, 2009
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The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
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Hello Mike and my fellow believers. Is it not a great day!
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Hi Mule! Thanks for the star bro!

And thank you Maureen, I appreciate you!

CindyLou, glad you found it thought provoking. I guess if it was run of the mill and unoriginal, and if the thought didn't provoke me to some passion, I wouldn't have posted it!

Tanya, I don't know you (yet), but I'm sure I'll like you! =)

Joey, lemme give you a great big hug! You really sweeten the body of Christ!

Lara, AMEN!! You get it!!

The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
Now for my thoughts. I get what you mean about being passive Mike. By no means do we submit to evil spirits but claim authority over them by the blood and in Jesus' Name! Amen? Yeah, next thought. When being a Witness (key), we should use the Beatitudes as an example?! I thought so. It is in the application of the Spirit that is the difference. Discernment has to be from and led by the Holy Spirit. We get that from God as a gift along with wisdom in how to use it (wisely). You are correct in the application of the Beatitudes in this post and I know the Spirit in which you meant for it to be taken. There is a verse that says "love covers a multitude of sins" (like Jesus did for us) and also "love keeps no records of wrongs". There are many more and to list them would only infuriate some people. I had an experience with a demonic spirit in a guy who was intending to do me harm. What did I do that was so offensive? I overlooked an offense by someone else. He was going to get that guy back but I said it was ok. I was not offended. That started his spirit to disrespect my God with slander and foul language that rose the Spirit in me to stand up for my Lord, which I did. That man came at me to fight but I didn't want to be like the old me and dance with him. I declared he had no authority here, I was covered by the blood of Jesus, and he wouldn't lay a finger on me! Of course my mind had no clue what I was saying and thought I needed to duck or swing. I had never heard anything about the Blood covering as I was only a couple of months being saved. He started backing up, hiccup ping, and couldn't breath or anything. That was the Holy Spirit on him keeping me safe and being a good, strong witness for Jesus. God was pleased and I got blessed with an even better trip than what I started with. Forgive the length but I did shorten the response from what I orginally wanted to write. Keep 'em coming.  Yer Mule in Christ.
GrammyB
July 23, 2009
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Okay, who does God like better here?  Huh?

 

Nahhh, just kidding. :) :) :) 

 

but everyone has a calling -- and there's a big difference between being passive and apathetic.     If we're all listening to the LORD, He will show us our part to play in all this....He will keep the Body of Christ in perfect balance if we are all willing to submit to Him. :)    

To the rowdy, to the quiet, to the fighters, and to the one who nurse 'em back to health -- you all are amazing, inspiring, and a delight to my heart.  And Mike, as the kids say, "Cool beans!"  -- you know how to make us THINK. 

Gerald
July 23, 2009

Mike n Laura,

In this blog you brought up points regarding Jesus' pacivity.  While on the surface it appears to be that way, in reality it isnt.  You must consider the political climate Scripture was written. 

More than 400 years have passed since God spoke (Malachi).  Since Malachi spoke and Jesus appeared, the Jews were under the relentless oppression of Rome.  The Sanhedrin were the surrogate rulers who kept the population in line with the affairs of day to day living.  Pilate and the Roman Army were only there if the Sanhedrin lost control.  I speak about this a little more as well other things in my blog "On Your Feet or On Your Knees".  The Jews were highly agitated in this state of spiritual and political oppression.  If you really think that pacivity is "truly blessed"  as you put it, consider this:

In Matthew 21:12  Jesus overthrew the moneychangers.  Sounds like an act of retaliation to me.  Dont see any mercy there.

In Matthew 21:13  Jesus said "It is written, my house shall be called the house prayer. But you have made it a den of thieves".  This is Jesus taking a hardline stance.  So how concilitory is that?

When Jesus said,"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake" it is in the context of when the Word of God is proclaimed,  that the Word will bring division between the righteous and the unrighteous (Read Matthew 10:34-36 for proper context). 

Solomon said To everything there is a season.  In the 1st century it was a time of "pacivity" since if the Jews would raised up an insurrection then, they would have been squashed like a bug by the Roman army and Christianity would have been reduced to a footnote in religous history.  This is not the 1st century, this is the 21st century.  NOW is the time to act or risk losing our freedoms forever! 



 
 
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Thank you Jeff-n-Lynn, I appreciate the clarification! Your comment is encouraging!

Robin, I'm not seeing the "waffling", unless you were expecting me to say passivity is the way to go 100% of the time. Jesus certainly wasn't a do-nothing guy, he traveled all over the place, teaching, healing, etc. Seems absurd to argue that Jesus was a passive man overall. But did he seem strikingly passive at key moments, yes! For example:

He didn't run or fight when the mob came to take him to his death, instead he allowed his betrayer to walk right up and kiss him (seems passive, not assertive). Of course he was deliberately passive, he knew what was up.

He prayed in the garden, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Surrendering his will was a passive (yet courageous) thing to do.

He offered abolutely no defense at his sham of a trial, even though the Roman governor was trying to release him - passive, not aggressive or assertive (right?).

Jesus taught the disciples to pray "thy will be done" ...passive submission as opposed to assertively claiming their "rights" as children of God (don't laugh, many say we should do this!).

This seems like a rather passive teaching: "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic." (Luke 6:29)

Jesus also rebuked the disciples quite a few times for their overly aggressive intentions. e.g. James/John when they wanted to call down fire on the village that did not welcome Jesus, or when Peter forbade Jesus accept suffering, or when Peter cut off the servant's ear.

Jesus also taught, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." It seems passive to me to deny oneself. Often it FEELS like a passive thing to do. I want to seize control. I know the right thing to do or the right way to go. But instead I sit down and pray (a passive thing to do, compared to taking decisive action) asking the Lord to lead me (surrendering to his control feels passive to me).Yes I definitely grant you there is a time to GO and DO. But in my heart I feel that the resting place for the believer is a place of passivity, of submitting to and receiving from God.

I hope that addresses your concerns Robin. Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to share a thought that seemed to go somewhat against the grain.

Debbie
July 23, 2009
Amen, Gerald!
I've been thinking about this throughout the day...if the patriots/founding fathers had been passive...we wouldn't have a country...
As Gerald said...
 NOW is the time to act or risk losing our freedoms forever! 
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Wow Mule, amazing! And thank you for writing that out. I can't imagine what must have been going through your mind!

Gerald (pastor), what you say makes sense in my head. But my heart reminds me Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest..." I hear what you're saying about context, but why are Christians in the USA any different than Christians in China? The underground church in China is THRIVING, GROWING, while churches in the "free" West are declining rapidly! Our priority should be seeking God, not fighting political battles, IMHO. As we have fought to preserve freedoms for the last 20-30 yrs (or more), the exodus from the church has only been speeding up. Misplaced priorities, I believe. Yes, we can definitely find plenty of examples of Jesus taking action. But in the Beatitudes, I don't see much aggressiveness. THANK YOU for offering your respected opinion. I may be wrong, but this is what my heart tells me now. God bless!

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009
Debbie, thanks for sounding off, friend. Now may be the time, for those appointed. I really do share your concerns, and yes, I really wonder what I would do if my govt said I couldn't homeschool my children anymore. I vote (for as Godly a candidate as I can), I pay taxes, I obey the laws of the land....I do my civic duty! But it also isn't my highest calling. :-)
The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
1st Peter 2:13 explains the proper attitude toward submiting to authority. Jesus did it by example. We are not to go out and start a rebellion. Being active is ok. Our freedoms do not come from man. Only God grants us freedom that man cannot take away. Ever. Even in bondage, a slave was free under God's care and mercy. Paul wrote about that along with Peter. Is slavery wrong? Of course it is. Is the bible wrong? Of course it is not. Is there a contradiction here? Absolutely not. We have to have an understanding of application to know what verses apply to and how. To be offended about one's own self is not proper as we are to die daily (the flesh) but to uphold God's Word and His son Jesus is to be bold in the faith that please's God. Basically, stand up for Him as we submit to Him and His will.
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

GrammyB...THANK YOU!! Right-O! Everyone has a part.Glad you gave it some thought! (Even if you don't agree, to consider alone blesses me!)

As I read the Beatitudes, and Sanders' commentary, I wondered if those possessing these 8 mostly passive qualities could be the truly blessed (blissful), moreso or as opposed to their more assertive counterparts. If so, why? Well, if so, I believe it's b/c the qualities I listed opposite the Beatitudes (self-sufficient, carefree, aggressive, proud, vengeful, etc.) are very human in nature, you know, the sinful nature, ol' self himself! It takes a dose of the Holy Spirit to personify poor in spirit, contrition, meekness, etc. Is it just me, or do the fruits of the Spirit seem somewhat (dare I say) passive too? I dunno, just thinkin!

Debbie
July 23, 2009

Mike, on that...we agree. 
The exodus from the church can be explained by the fact that most 85+% of Christians send their kids to public school...It's called brainwashing, indoctrination, etc..., but DON'T call it education!
How do we expect to "keep" our children Christian when they are in govt schools the majority of the time being told Evolution is fact...there is no God...

Over 75% of Christian children WON'T be so when they are finished with college...

This is NOT b/c the church has been political and (thusly inferred), a "turn-off."  The church in fact hasn't been political at all...it has been in a coma or at least "comfortably numb."  Only a minority of Christians have been in the political arena battling (and yes shame on you if it applies...smile!)...so IMHO, that assessment is WAY off...

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009
Wow, good stuff Mule! Are you a pastor? To die daily and to deny oneself, I guess to the world that is passive behavior, you know, as opposed to "fulfilling your potential, being all that you can be, the world is your oyster!!!" lol (Really good points, esp. wrt freedoms and authority!)
Debbie
July 23, 2009
Some other comments posted before the above one so to clarify, Mike, I was talking about agreeing with this.......I do my civic duty! But it also isn't my highest calling!
Gary Robison
July 23, 2009
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Which is more Christ like:

Standing on a corner, yelling at the women going into an abortion clinic that they are murdering an innocent child and are going to hell. To spend eternity in torment for sinning against God.

 

Or

Telling them quietly that the Creator of the heavens and the Earth came to earth and has forgiven them of all the things they ever did, or ever will do by dying on a cross. Seek Him and He will remove the things that separate them from the Lord.

 

******* I seem to remember a woman caught in the act of adultery, that Christ spoke to, and He told her that she was going to hell to burn for eternity because she had committed adultery.   *****NOT*****

 

It would seem to me that Christ was forgiving, not accusing the people of their sins.

 

So I would say He would be more passive than aggressive with the sheep. But when it came to the shepherds (religious leaders) He was aggressive.

 

The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
Lastly. Jesus was upset at 2 things in the temple. 1) The moneychangers were defiling the sacrifices by making people buy blemished birds and animals, thus stealing from people and defiling the sacrifices that were to be offered as a sacrifice Holy unto the Lord. Talk about insulting! Jesus stood up for the Father and the people who was being ripped off. Totally perfect response and most appropriate. Against the government accusations, "he was led like a lamb to the slaughter". Please see a blog I posted about mercy. (What an act of Mercy).  Thanks and God bless. 
The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
What a compliment Mike! Am I a Pastor?! I haven't even taught a Sunday School class.
Gerald
July 23, 2009

Mike n Laura,


Let me respond to each point that you have made:

True Jesus did say,"My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest..."   However in Matthew 6:10 Jesus said, "Your kingdom come and your will be done on Earth, as it (already) is in Heaven.

Regarding why the Church in China is flourishing and the Church in America is not is simply a matter of choice.  The American Church chooses not to flourish but the Chinese Church has no choice but to flourish or stands the risk of being destroyed by its own goverment.  If you want to see what will happen to the American Church if we dont sand up and take our rightful place in government look no further than our brothers and sisters in China. 

Our Founding Fathers depended on God through the Revolutionary War (definately no pacivity there!) 

FDR lead the nation in prayer for 6 minutes before engaging in WWII. No pacivity there either. 

As for what your response was to Debbie ("...I do my civic duty! But it also isn't my highest calling")  I do understand and respect that.  Not everyone has the same passion as I do.  However, if our rights and freedoms were given to us by God, we are mandated to be good stewards with them.  That being said, not only should you pray for those in authority but you need to hold them to account when they pass laws that fly in the face of Scripture.  After all, God did not vote them in, you did.

Hope this helps,
Gerald

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009
IDK Debbie, I don't think the exodus can be explained by any single factor, although you've prob. nailed one of them. It seems to me there's quite a large Christian activist presence, from the anti-abortion activities since Roe-v-Wade, to Dobson, FRC, Christian Coalition, Concerned Women for America, Pat Robertson, etc. This is a growing movement, and from what I can tell, it isn't helping the church grow at all. I also agree w/you that this prob. does not explain the exodus from churches (don't think I said that it did either). It might be a factor though. I've seen more than one pastor offend people right out of church b/c he was more concerned about the kingdoms of men than the Kingdom of God.
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009
Amen Mule! Another great post...keep em coming!! (I think I read that blog, sounds familiar.) Gary, excellent point. Thanks bro! (It was mercy and the patience of God that made the biggest impact on me in my return to the church!
The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
I did get asked by some young adults to be their teacher (who also asked the Pastor and Sunday School superintendent) and was really humbled by it. Did they do that because I have a bit of understanding from God who revealed His word to me? Or because I bring subway sandwiches to class and share with them? At any rate, this Sunday, we gonna have a donkey of a time.  Pssst. I did get approved by the VA to go back to college and was recomended by my Pastor to go to Southeastern Univ. (an Assemblies of God school) and they accepted me......yea! Got a double major plan in Education (teacher cert.) and Practical Theology with a selected minor (ordained) to work in ministry and teach. kool!
Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Gerald, thanks bro, good comment. Good stewards of the freedoms God gave us...excellent point! I still see a gentle acquiescence advocated in the Beatitudes, although this isn't to say action isn't advocated elsewhere in scripture at the proper time, or under the proper circumstances. (I'm not a passifist.) Ecclesiates (Solomon) says There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time for war and a time for peace.(Eccl 3:1,8)  I like what Gary and Mule had to say too!

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Mule....that doesn't surprise me!!!

(and I don't really think it was the Subway sandwiches, lol)

Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

 Gerald

you said After all, God did not vote them in, you did.

But scripture tells us the the Lord chooses our leaders.

 

13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

 

13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

 

 

3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

 




KEN
July 23, 2009
Jesus was not a 'limp wristed sissy'.  He knew when it was time to allow THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH to show up.  He told his Disciples to get themselves some razor sharp swords!
  Luke 22:35-37 (King James Version)

 36Then said He unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end. 
When The Apostle Peter sliced that guy's ear off, Jesus didn't say, "Peter, Throw That Sword Away".  No, He didn't.  Jesus sanctioned what He had said above in v. 36.  He just said, "Put it back in the sheath, but, keep it handy"  (well, not exact quote  (<: )  Anyway, think again about how we are going to get rid of Death, Hell, The Grave, Pain, Suffering, satan, The Beast, The False Prophet...It surely ain't by telling them, "Come-on Yall, be good boys now, cause we love You and don't want to offend You, or, hurt Your feelings.  Yall might call us hateful, or, something.  No, He said, "Here comes the Warrior Saints and The Lion of The Tribe of Judah to Take Care of A Little Business!
To the Brethren and Sisters of the Family of Faith...Let's do be gentle, kind and tender-hearted.

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Wow, quite a few comments I didn't answer...(I think). Sorry folks, long day!

Jude/Sarah, you said "Why teach passivity?" b/c Jesus did in the SOTM! (BUT...that isn't the ONLY thing he taught, either. See other comments concerning a time to be passive and a time to be active.)

You also said "The last thing we need in the 'church' in America is more dead pew warmers." AGREED! But this isn't Christian passivity to me, this is disinterest in true Christianity. I really don't know what the solution is, but I have a feeling affluence has a lot to do with the problem. (Ya know, easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle....)

And you said, "Never has the church been as active as it was in the first century. I believe also, never has been as strong." I suspect you are right. And maybe they were passive too! (in the right way, at the right time) Thanks for your comment.

Mike n Laura
July 23, 2009

Good call, Gary!

Thanks Ken!

 

The Talking Mule
July 23, 2009
One thing that I can honestly say is this is a really great way to discuss theology and I haven't seen the first bit of disrespect on this blog. Any differences that are expressed here is to the credit of the author. I think everyone commenting should be praised for the attitude and demeanor of their behavior. Amen to all. This is helpful and is a credit to the spirit of the debate (dare we call it that?) I enjoy the responses as Solomon wrote "as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another". Folks, this is the way it's done. I personally want to thank you for that and to Mike for stirring things up!             Hee Haw
Gerald
July 23, 2009
Mike n Laura,

This is what I been saying all along.  In my first post I paraphased Solomon, so I think we're both on the same page (now that you cleared up that not a passifist)  It just seems in the original post that you were choosing pacivity over standing up;

To Gary,

In Proverbs 29:2 it says "When the righeous are in power the people rejoice.  When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.  Are you saying that God chose this man who does not know when life begins "because its above his pay grade"?  I dont think so.  Would God rasie up a person the support the killing of human life when God says one of the things He hates is hands that shed innocent blood?  I dont think so.  What you dont understand is that God set up the seat of authority. WE CHOOSE who sits in that seat.

Hope this helps
Gerald
Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

Ken, remember when this happened, it was just before He was betrayed by Judas, at to the mount of Olives; remember He was also a prophet, because when the guard came to arrest Him,

Luk 22:50  And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.

Then the Lord healed the guard's ear.

Luk 22:51  And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. 

Then Christ said:

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mat 26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

Gerald, acording to scripture, who placed Nebucanezer in power?

 

5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:

The Lord DOES choose who will lead nations,

 

KEN
July 23, 2009

Well, Gary, I know that Christ Jesus could have called more than twelve legions of Angels, yet, there was a reason He said there is a time to take up the sword.  The Apostles were not Jesus, obviously, and Jesus knew their subjection to original sin at times.  They (Apostles) may not have had the God-Man kind of faith that could call thousands of Angels, but, they could call upon their sword.  Not that they were going to 'live by the sword', but, maybe, just maybe, Jesus knew this was a time they would need a sharp sword.  This, I believe is why He told them to go get a Your swords. 

Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

Gerald,  There have been many questionable election results in our short history.

We only have the illusion of being in control.

When you vote, your vote does NOT count.

The electoral college makes the decision. They are supposed to select according to the vote, but are not required to.

 in power?
 

 See here for more information on the Electorial Colledge.

 

Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

We will just let this sit and simmer some in prayer Ken.

KEN
July 23, 2009
 Sometimes God allows men to get what they ask for, evil, or, good.  Like the old song said; "He wants it, well, he gets it".  Yes God will allow this.  In the case of Neb., well, God wanted the King to do well, but, the King chose evil.  Does The Lord God of Hosts want men to do evil?  No, He wants them to submit to Him and live Holy lives.  God gives the voters/people not only what they want, but, also what they deserve.  I must agree with Gerald, while, loving both of my Brothers with the Love of Christ Jesus.  {Bro-ken}
Gordon Greene
July 23, 2009
  [star!]
Well Mike, several thoughts.

The Lamb and the Lion are not either or. Jesus was both. Think of it like the two sides of the same coin. We can never have the character of the Lion until we know the heart of the Lamb.

Founding fathers. I remember the founders of the church. A group of people who were convinced they knew what was going on as Jesus walked among them. They were clueless as they each focused on what was important to themselves. And at the moment when they thought they were finally going to see the kingdom of GOD come Jesus was crucified.

With no confidence in themselves, and with nothing but a Promise, they waited. GOD came. The Promise came. And the once "lions" knew the heart of the Lamb. With boldness and humility they spoke.

Mike, nothing has changed the past couple thousand years. Those words spoken in what we now call the Beatitudes is as revoluntionary now as they were back then. Only the most courageous would attempt to live them. Those who do are blessed.

Isaiah 11

 1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

 2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

 3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

 4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

 5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

 6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

On GOD's holy mountain all dwell together in peace. Different temperaments, different characteristics, different life experiences, but all have the same Lord. On this mountain (v.9) they neither hurt or destroy.

The Be Attitudes hold a very special place in my heart. As a young atheist responding to some stupid preacher's suggestion that I read the book of Matthew I did just that so I could show him wrong. Made it thru the first four chapters fine but when I began to read the words of Jesus in Matthew 5, somewhere in the Beatitudes, GOD came mightily. I knew He was real, I knew He was in my heart, I knew I was saved. I hungrily read the entire New Testament in less than a month.

Too often when we read something that is contrary to "logic" we have to explain it so that it makes sense. Because to actually do what scripture says sometimes can make us targets, really goes against what life has taught us, and honestly, we just don't want to.

Faith walks in when doubt walks out
Doubt is quiet but faith will shout

Faith will go where doubt will not
Doubt will never have what faith has got

Faith trusts GOD in the darkest night
Doubt has questions in the daylight

Faith already the Promise received
Doubt will continue being deceived

.....peace.....

Mike, passivity doesn't work in this world but it is the only thing that works in the spiritual realm. If I am not passive with my Lord I will never be passive in this world. If I am passive with my Lord the Beatitudes will reflect my character.

The Beatitudes is like the special forces in spiritual warfare. Those who hold them close to heart, esteem them as goals, live and breathe them, will encounter stiff resistance from the enemy. But they never fight alone.

.....peace.....

KEN
July 23, 2009
Beloved Gary, I know that I am probably wrong, because I know me.  But, this is what I truly believe.  I so very much agree with You;  "We will just let this sit and simmer some in prayer Ken."
 

Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

The Lord chose Nebuchadrezzar to be His sword.

Jer 43:10  And say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will send and take Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will set his throne upon these stones that I have hid; and he shall spread his royal pavilion over them.
 

Eze 26:7  For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
Eze 26:8  He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.

So just from the 2 scriptures here, it plainly says the Lord sent  Nebuchadrezzar, he was chosen of the Lord.

Sorry Mike n Laura, did not mean to get off subjest here.....

Gary Robison
July 23, 2009

Sorry Ken, did not get the pan off of the fire quick enough, it started to boil...

I have it off now, will let it simmer some more...

 

Old Man of The North
July 23, 2009
Hi Mike.  I have a problem with the word "passive."  In my language - it mean you allow people to walk all over you, and that I do not do.  On a wider scale, it also makes me wonder why the church as a whole allows itself to be trodden on and beaten up - whilst other "religions" stand up for what they believe in.  So to me, being passive - and standing up for what you believe in take on great significance.  And personally speaking (without brow-beating people over the head with it) I'd rather have a stand up and be counted attitude - than a passive, let people walk all over you attitude.  Perhaps that's why Christianity has such bad press?  Its because all people see and picture - are a load of wimps.  So I have a problem with the word "passive" - because a picture forms in my head of being a wimp, and I donot relate to "wimpy Christianity", but rather a Christianity that stands up for for it believes in.  And by the way, that does not mean pistols at dawn, suicide bombing - or any such thing.  Its a Christianity that will not back down when the going gets tough.  Neither will it side-track issues as if they don't exist.  I could go on, but I think you get the meaning behind the meaning. :o)
Joey     R
July 24, 2009
Gee whiz, you guys can go carry on about this passive stuff.   lol
And Steve Bee, I ain't no wimp!

apureheart, you have it:
"passivity doesn't work in this world but it is the only thing that works in the spiritual realm. If I am not passive with my Lord I will never be passive in this world. If I am passive with my Lord the Beatitudes will reflect my character.

The Beatitudes is like the special forces in spiritual warfare. Those who hold them close to heart, esteem them as goals, live and breathe them, will encounter stiff resistance from the enemy. But they never fight alone."

Leigh Thomas
July 24, 2009
  [star!]
wow.  I'm typeless.  I'm so thankful God is in Control.
Old Man of The North
July 24, 2009
I meant the assumption is being a wimp.  That was not aimed at anyone in specific, just an observation of what people see or maybe think about when they think about Christianity.
Old Man of The North
July 24, 2009
P.S.  And to clarify my phrase "people", I mean outsiders, or those outside the church looking in.
Gerald
July 24, 2009

Gary,


You said that your vote does not count becuase the President is elected via the Electoral College.  I have a couple of questions:


How was Wasington, Adams, and Jefferson elected?

Where is the Electoral College in the Congressional races, Governor's race. or Mayoral races?

You speak of Nebucanezer to prove your point that it is God that sets up kings.  Here are a couple more questions:

When was the last time we had a "king" in America?

Prior to Saul - which was NOT God's choice (read I Samuel 8:5-7), how was the government of Israel ran?  The  answer is by the Judges.  Scripture does not bear out that the Judges were picked by God. 

btw, Nebucanezer  became ruler of the Israel because of their disobedience.  Not because the Lord wanted to give them a king.

Hope this helps,
Gerald

Gary Robison
July 24, 2009
Gerald, I think we are off subject here, start a new blog, send me an invite and we can discuss it there....
Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

LOL, good idea Gary!! :-)

Hi Gerald, thanks for hangin out w/us!

Thank you Leigh, amen...God IS in control! (and that ain't no copout...it's a comfort!)

Hmmm. I see something simmering. Well let's just let it simmer, that way it won't burn or boil over! haha

 

Debbie
July 24, 2009

Gerald, that was an excellent response!

Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

Hi Joey! Great point made by apureheart...to the world, the 8 "passive" traits in the Beatitudes appear to be weaknesses. Jesus certainly appeared weak as he stood in front of Pontius Pilate and the crowd, bloodied and silent. But WE know better, don't we? The Lion appeared as a Lamb. So even though we appear passive, and lamb-like (to others), we know that in fact we are in a position of strength!

What more passive position could we take than to get down on our knees and bow our heads down. But when we rest in this position of surrender, our human nature is defeated and the strength of God takes over!

My accountability partner said this morning that to be passive (before the Lord, and perhaps before people) is to TRUST God. The only way we prideful assertive humans could ever be passive is if we know that in so doing, the Lord will take over and work in us, with us, and through us, accomplishing HIS will.

16:25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

What could be more passive than to give up (surrender) your WHOLE LIFE to the Lord Jesus? (I know...he then asserts himself through us!)

Just thinking, that's all! (Will ya join me?)

Birdie Courtright
July 24, 2009
  [star!]
This is awesome Mike!
Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

Jess, way up above, shared a definition of passive:

2. not resisting; yielding or submitting to the will of another.

Good definition!! Should we resist God's will or the control of the Holy Spirit? Shouldn't we yield every fiber of our being? As far as submitting (to the will of another), aren't we told to "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ"? (Eph 5:21) That act of submitting doesn't sound so aggressive to me.

But we are also told to "be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power" in order that we may "stand firm" (Eph 6). So passivity isn't weakness, although it may LOOK like weakness to the world!

Stevie, enjoyed reading your comment! I think that I just addressed your points here too. Jesus appeared weak, looked like the world was walking all over him, but God clearly had a purpose in mind. A situation of defeat led to the greatest victory in history, GOD'S victory. Nowadays, I believe we should not fear the appearance of weakness or defeat! After all Paul wrote

12:9 My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

I'm not so concerned with looking powerful before the world.

 

Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

Thanks Birdie!!  :-)

 

Leigh Thomas
July 24, 2009
Hey, buddy!  You started quite a topic here, eh?  Reminds me of the one I did on Battlefield on...MC???

Love in Him,
Leigh
KEN
July 24, 2009

Amen, Gary!  God will give unto the people who they want, or, deserve.  He will even allow this good ole' USA to become islamic under the most viscious shariah law, if that is what we want.  Hello Ayatollah!  I really think, that, after all, we are agreeing, some way. The 'Boil' is what it takes sometimes.  Charge on Warrior of The Lord God of Hosts!......{Bro-ken}

     ***Thanx to Mike for keeping things going***Keeping us connected***
 

kAreN
July 24, 2009

Think of all the people that will go 2 hell because of passive christians...

Bruce Cavanaugh
July 24, 2009
  [star!]
Jennifer Huffman Dominey
July 24, 2009
Do you not know that by submitting to my husband I am yielding to the Father?

After reading the numerous comments after mine I'm overwhelmed at the direction the blog has taken.  I have an opinion but at this time choose not to give it. 

Note:this is not a passive action but rather an action because I desperately want to say something but am actively restraining myself. Hahaaaa!
Bruce Cavanaugh
July 24, 2009

I think many of you are misunderstanding the term “passive” as compared to what is being expressed through this blog. Even the use of a dictionary only gives partial meaning. We must take into consideration the cultural, ethnic, and traditional perspectives on the meaning of this word. Some of us just assume the word passive is associated with a weakness, inability, or expression of forgoing one’s own conviction under pressure.

I do not believe this is what is meant here. Maybe more like this- passive, as in, letting go of our natural desire to control other people, situations, and circumstances around us. I believe the Sermon on the Mount gives us some practical rules to address one’s own innate desire to be in charge of one’s life and situation.  The ability to let go of this fleshly, or innate desire is a mark of true humility and strength. Yes- passivity can be strength.  In fact, you may even be considered stronger than the more assertive brother, if God is calling you to stop resisting, let go, relax in His love, and trust His working out of the plan for your life.

 Passivity could also be considered “trust” in God’s sovereignty over our life, calling, and circumstances.

 

Was Jesus “passive” when He was lead to the cross as a lamb to the slaughter? Was he “passive” when they were spitting on him and whipping him? Was he “assertive/aggressive” when he felt the weakness and desperation as he stumbled under the weight of the cross?

I’m sure He had some assertive words that He may have wanted to say. But He knew that true strength was to follow God’s plan, even though it looked terribly and unabashedly passive. In fact, all the authorities of that time were convinced in the correctness of their actions because He, apparently, didn’t have what it takes to avoid death on a cross.

 

I think we should take the understanding of passive to a deeper level and see it reflected against our human nature that wants to aggressively defend our rights, our ambitions, and our desire to control everything around us.

 

As Christians, we do not have to look outwardly strong. Nor do we have to worry about how we are perceived as to our measurement of strength. In some ways, I would rather “appear” weak to the world, than to allow my own unredeemed nature to have a foothold that leads to pride.

 

Gary Robison
July 24, 2009

kAreN

 Think of all the people that will go 2 hell because of aggressive (rude) christians...

telling those they witness too, to do things they themselves cannot or will not do.

Sounds like what Christ said to the Pharisees

Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

Dear Jennifer, active restraint...I like that! lol .. If you don't call that being passive, then maybe I do have the wrong word!

kArEn... this is my understanding of why ppl go to hell.

1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;

Without excuse. That means no one in hell can blame anyone else, least of all passive Christians, for their predicament. 

Another way to look at it. Passive Christians haven't done anything to drive ppl away from the Lord either! Think of all the ppl that will go to hell b/c rude, hypocritical, obnoxious, and argumentative Christians caused them to reject church in disgust, and thus reject Christ and the free forgiveness he offers. But then they can't blame Christians either for their eternal predicament either! Each person is individually accountable to God, responsible for their own rejection of his Son.

Passive Christians....not wrong, just different. And blessed. :-)

Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

Gary....thinking alike... :-)

Bruce, there are many ways to say what you just said. I think you managed the very best. Thanks brother!!

Joey     R
July 24, 2009
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
- Douglas Adams
The Talking Mule
July 24, 2009
This is like a merry-go-round. After a point is made to clarify a term, it comes back again like it was never addressed. LOL. Reading this is like yelling under water. Who is really listening? James said it best in his (ancient blog?) letter,
3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without variance, without hypocrisy. 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

The Talking Mule
July 24, 2009
I couldn't help the studdering. Those 2 verses did deserve to be repeated though.
Mike n Laura
July 24, 2009

lol ... excellent verses Mule. I think you might be onto something!

You suggest that some folks might not really be reading responses? Or pausing to consider what the blog's author and many others might actually be trying to say? You could be right! Reminds me of this great former post:

I Can't Stop Talking Long Enough to Hear You

Gary Robison
July 24, 2009
amen Mike n Laura
Hudnall
July 25, 2009
OMGosh!
HigherGround
July 25, 2009
  [star!]
my oh my! first I had to look up

as·sid·u·ous (-s j-s) adj. 1. Constant in application or attention; diligent: an assiduous worker who strove for perfection.

way cool, i will use it three times this week so it sticks, lol

I gathered much here as I do whenever reading your blogs from both you and your comments following

well, here is my thoughts:

I often wondered if I appear too passive to folks, especially those who are tromping on me. i have cried in my prideful pain trying to stomp down my desire to give someone a piece of my mind and could back it up with truth and the reason they were wrong and the Lord would tell me NOT to, but to just love them in return. Sometimes I am permitted to gently state my cause and sometimes I am not. How do I know whether I heard from God on this? The outcome. I have either won the other over to the Lord or I have made peace and the fruit will come. Do I ever say it is ok to abort or live in perversion or whatever, no. I simply don't squash people in the process of sharing.

I read a cool book in the 70's when I first got saved. How not to be a witless witness by Fritz Ridenour.  John Teter wrote another called Get the Word Out and an exerpt:
 God is not looking for burned-out, guilt-ridden evangelists to change the world. There are enough of those folks doing their thing in the world. Instead God is looking for people who are madly in love with his Son, experience him as the best joy in all the world and therefore cannot contain their joy in God. That is what it means to be sent as a witness. We are shaped by God’s love before we are sent. The order is important… Before God would have us launch forth into a hostile world to introduce his love to sinners, he would have us be people who are first consumed with that same love. He would have us give to others what we ourselves have experienced.

(Preston Pittman could have written that!)

The test may just be the fruit. How many lives have you changed by being a witness by love. Passivity in one sense feels like loving someone to me. I am not the scholar that some of you are but I have been reading the Word for 33 years and see the fruit of loving folks into the kingdom. I caught a bit of disagreement on another blog for that. I was asked to name a verse, never went back to it because I forgot until now, honestly. If I can find my bread crumb trail back to it I may add a thought there again.

I have had opportunities in the workplace THIS week to spout absolute truth at someone who wanted to prove me wrong but I had proof they were. Instead, in a gesture of love which I TRULY felt, I only provided proof when the file was brought to to management's attention and the other party was defeated. The manager and attorney set them straight. I never missed a beat in being kind to her, never joined in the chatter about how stupid they were that was being shouted about. I took a higher road that my God has asked me. I was vindicated again (He does that for me) and passive throughout.

The fruit will come and in many ways has.

Hope I am not way off topic. In my old days before watching what I watched on tv, I used to watch Saturday Night Live and Rosanne Rosannadanna when answering the questions, she would invariably digress, launching into a lengthy anecdote with no relevance to the topic at hand. Sometimes I have a bit of RR in me. lol

love your blogs and love you brother....we all get to rethink what we believe in...always a good thing-juanita mae
Jeff and Lynn
July 25, 2009
I'm thinking that I would love to see more of the beattitudes in my children.  And I'm thinking God would love to see more of them in me!
(Raising children sure opens our eyes to a lot of things about our relationship with God, our Heavenly Father, doesn't it?)   *smile*
Mike n Laura
July 25, 2009

Juanita (higherground), love your thoughts on the blog...THANKS!

Jeff/Lynn - agreed!! The Beatitudes in our kids, that would be lovely!

Teral McDowell
July 25, 2009
Interesting conversation going on here...
ihsallthetime
July 25, 2009
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Old Man of The North
July 25, 2009
Love is an action word, not a feeling.
Joey     R
July 25, 2009
Even after all this time The sun never says to the earth, "You owe me." Look what happens with a Love like that!It lights the whole Sky. (Hafiz)
Joey     R
July 25, 2009
Stevie Bee..   I believe that "honest love" = action
Old Man of The North
July 25, 2009
Amen Joey.  If love was not an action word, I wouldn't have gone over to Canada, and it would have just remained "a feeling."
Joey     R
July 25, 2009

Yup.  It's love that beckons us to think, and to reach out beyond ourselves.  To see the human being.

Liz Bell
July 25, 2009
Oh my Mike gets a debate going lololo
Prayer Warrior For God
July 25, 2009
Mike is good at doing that Liz, but at least no one is fighting with one another. Great blog Mike. :)
Gene Boecker
July 25, 2009
  [star!]
Wow, Mike!  Two days and all these comments!

I understand what you mean by "passive."  Its sort of the opposite of the "in-your-face" attitude that is all too often the appearance of Christians.  It seems like its either apathy of aggression - neither of which is expressed in the Gospel as a positive thing.

Martin Luther King Jr was a good example of "Passive" for our lifetime.  He stood his ground and spoke his mind but was not interested in getting others emotions up except to do good.  We too often seem to forget why we are excited once we get there.

Great blog - once more.
The Talking Mule
July 26, 2009
Juanita Mae, oh my, what your fingers produce! Is that an orginal thought or did God whisper in your ear? Seems like the latter....

Stevie Bee, Dead On! Even if Joey agrees with you, she's like that. Maybe she has a phd that she's keeping from us??

I have to admit, I need more of the Beattitudes in me. I can't even begin to start checking anyone else out.

I have a dream, that all mankind would know what true love is.  (1 Cor. 13:4-7)

Mike, remember once you wondered whether you should blog what you blog? Seems silly now, doesn't it?
mom n daughter
July 26, 2009
I think Esther...you know, the queen in the Bible that allowed God to use her...is a great example of getting politically involved.  If she had remained passive, we probably wouldn't know who she was. I am sure the Jews of her day were very thankful that she took action.

I am sure that our children and grandchildren are now and will continue to suffer the consequences of the "churches" political passivity.  It is up to us to stand and be counted and do what we can to make positive changes in our government. 

Once again...‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ Martin Porter.
mom n daughter
July 26, 2009
***sorry Martin Porter did not say this....Edmund Burke did...****
Gordon Greene
July 26, 2009
Blessed are the meek...

Numbers 12:3 (KJV) Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

...for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they that mourn...

Jeremiah 13:17 (KJV) But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive.

...for they shall be comforted.

Jeremiah 31:16 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

Blessed are they which hunger and thirst after righteousness...

Daniel 1 (KJV)  But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

...for they shall be filled.

Daniel 1:15-17 (KJV)  And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.  Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse (other versions---vegetables).  As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.

Jesus was giving us examples of the blessed. To avoid His disciples getting hung up on the greatness of the prophets he described them by their character. Their character was what made them great.

Mike, the above list is by no means complete. Moses, Jeremiah, Daniel (and friends) were real people with real feelings, desires and wants. Moses wasn't born meek. Jeremiah didn't volunteer to become the weeping prophet. Daniel was not part of the in crowd, doing what everyone else was doing. Individually, GOD brought each to a place they needed to be so they could become who they really were. GOD saw it they didn't.

And Mike, Moses, Jeremiah, and Daniel had their critics and those who envied what they had. The way they lived made them easy targets for the aggresive and the ambitious. Were they wrong? Or were they blessed?

Matthew 5:11-12 (KJV)  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Just to be clear I define a christian as one who loves GOD and desires to live for Him. Yes, many claim the name but not the life. Their passiveness is like all the other Jewish children in Daniel 1 who did not resist the best the world had to offer them at that time. When I say passive christian I mean someone who has quit fighting GOD's will for their life, who is broken and contrite, who is thankful for the gift of salvation and lives out that thankfulness daily.

These people will not impress and often are unnoticed. They simply live out their lives touching others with the same love they have been touched by. They will be criticized for what they don't do as they live in the center of GOD's will. Like a bush that is ignited by the presence of GOD they burn in this wilderness we call life.

This bush is quite passive. It doesn't complain about its location. How ineffective it is. How it should be a tree so others would notice it. No, it simply burns in the place and form GOD put it and made it. Occasionally, a burn out turns aside curious as the bush that burns is not consumed. The bush is silent but GOD speaks. A life is changed. And the bush continues to burn unnoticed.

Blessed are the passive for their passion shall never diminish.

.....peace.....

HigherGround
July 26, 2009
Had a chance last night to find the right path to take and honor the Lord. I visited my paralyzed friend, Aaron. I was on my swollen feet nearly 4 hours at the point in which a nurse pointed out that he needed freshened up by lifting his gown up to his chin exposing him. I jerked it back down and she shrieked it was getting the gown dirtied. I felt anger rising in me at her ignorance at protecting his dignity. She had no idea my relationship to him, as she even proclaimed she was NEW at this hospital. He was so distressed at this unkindness that his heart rate went up on the machine beside him and his face showed anger. I told her the gown can be changed and I would step outside the room while they did. She called in Mike Smitty, a kind and gentle man who is a believer. He brought in help and I stayed outside the room while they bathed him and changed his gown and got him comfortable. It was about 45 minutes as he has to be gently turned.

I saw same nurse leaving a room and weighed my thoughts carefully in prayer before speaking with her. I quietly told her that her actions of lifting his gown embarrassed him, an unnecessary action as the gown was already soiled and could easily be changed and would have been anyway. I asked her to please consider this as most of the patients on that floor are on vents and cannot speak other than if you can lip read. She protested that she was trying to keep the gown from being soiled and I gently and quietly reminded her that while she had a goal in mind, it was the least important one. If this man, my friend, is to be healed...all of him needs considered. His emotions, his body, his hopes, his dignity. She apologized and promised to consider this when dealing with him. I smiled and thanked her. I smiled at her a few more times as she went from room to room and caught my eyes while I waited.

When back in the room and seeing him comfortable and "quieter" than normal. Not catching my eye, I explained that I had been a caregiver to many men who were quadraplegic, not just Michael as well as a hospice caregiver and have bathed more than I could count. I apologized for her actions and told him that I made it clear in the nicest most prayerful way I could that she had mishandled the situation. Hopefully it will be on her mind when she deals with someone else as well. Even the door was open to any visitors passing by. I told him that I understood why he was distressed and he passed through another hurdle of injustice. I explained some things I had been through in my life, raped by two classmates in high school and they took my dentures (I had dentures at age 16) and laughed at me as I laid there helpless without clothes or teeth. I hated them. I wanted them to die. I got to the point where I was able to forgive, but it takes a lot from me still to keep the anger at bay.

I wear a large cross about my neck. It reminds me I am not my own. It reminds me I represent him. I got my point across to the nurse, but did it in a way that I believe was pleasing to the Lord. If she recognized my cross as me being a child of God, then it would have been a bad witness to go off on her.

It was action, but I made myself pray to see her as one God loves before we quietly spoke so that I would do it wrong.

I hope this isn't digressing.....I see the connection even though I wasn't debating a bible point with her...it was speaking to her in a loving way and standing firm on a principle of care for my friend.

He calmed by the way and told me he loved me as I was leaving and to drive careful. :) Again, end result or fruit...he was ok, should have good care from her now with dignity and I didn't attack hers.  
Sherlock
July 26, 2009
  [star!]
Mike n Laura
July 27, 2009

"Blessed are the passive for their passion shall never diminish."

Passive and passionate...amen Gordon(apureheart), I see no contradiction there. I gain much from reading your comments, thank you!

Mike n Laura
July 27, 2009

Glad you popped in Teral!

Marcia(ihsallthetime)- Thank YOU too! God IS love, and as Stevie said, "Love is an action word"! I tried to clarify, by passive I didn't mean inactive. I think a good way to hone in on what I meant by passive is to view the contrasts in the blog itself. 

Joey, I sure do appreciate you popping in and nudging us all God-ward. Your comments are like wildflowers, beautifying the landscape w/o indictment. Thanks for sharing, I feel you know my heart well!!

Mike n Laura
July 27, 2009

Juanita, there is a time for action! But even in your actions, I saw humility and a genuine concern not only for Aaron but for the nurse whom you spoke to. That is a rare ability you have, that she was able to appreciate you even as you confronted her about her inappropriate treatment of Aaron. As Paul wrote, "Let your gentleness be evident to all."

Hi Sherlock!!  =]

Mike n Laura
July 27, 2009

Mule, I love your comments. They add MUCH to a blog! And IDK, maybe I still wonder.... :-)

Gene....you are dead on! Glad you "got it", and truly BLESSED that you took the time to stop by and let me know that you did!! (smiling)

Mike n Laura
July 27, 2009
Robin, we may still be chasing after understanding. I agree, it was a good thing that Esther got involved. Again, passive does not equal inactive or apathetic. But I'm not sure how much churches' political passivity has to do w/the predicament this nation finds itself in. Our problems are more spiritual than physical/political, I believe.
Jude and Sarah
July 27, 2009

The primary problem with the church in America is spiritual. The church is spiritually dead. However, the only way for the church to be restored, is for God's people to follow him and obey his commandments. This means repenting of wickedness and also being good stewards of what God has given us.
God has given us a nation in which we are free to vote/get involved to further His kingdom!

Gary Robison
July 27, 2009

Paul was a Roman Citizen, but he was not politically active, even though as a Citizen he could have been. From what I read of his writings, he even said NOT to be involved...????

Gary Robison
July 27, 2009
I "think" that  Christians should be as politically active as Christ Jesus.
Joey     R
July 27, 2009

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
-Mark Twain

Joey     R
July 27, 2009

If you judge people, you have no time to love them.
-Mother Teresa

The Talking Mule
July 27, 2009
Ester threw herself at the feet of the king. That was submitting to whatever the king's will was, whether good or bad. Passive with courage. Amen? Yeah.
The Talking Mule
July 27, 2009
You scared me Joey. I didn't see the 'h' in the last word of that quote.
The Talking Mule
July 27, 2009
From Samuel Clemmens......:o)
Mike n Laura
October 21, 2009

"The church is spiritually dead."

I beg to differ with this. A correct statement would be, there are many people in the Church (in America) who are spiritually dead. But wherever the Church exists, God is still at work.

Some people, in their eagerness to condemn wickedness, mistakenly judge the righteous as well. This is most unfortunate.