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AMEN! you have hit it right on the nose!!!!!

as a Christian you have forefeited those rights for now you are not your own you have been bought with a price. 

This is SO true!!!!

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The Christians of Paul's time were not passive...they actively sang praises to the Living God while waiting for the Lion to get around to them in the arenas of Rome.

Paul wasn't passive.  He made use of the political system by making an appeal to Cesar.  He also sang praise and glorified the Living God...before they cut his head off.

What none of them ever did was lift a sword against Cesar. Nor did they have rallies and meetings where they talked about how evil the government was.  They just lived as Christians whether they were a Roman Officer or a slave; being respectful of authority...even if they had to respectfully refuse to stop preaching in the name of Jesus.

I'd say we must be careful not to look to the state to be the christian that we aren't.  :-)

Blessings!
Craig

Those are rights man put to paper.

We are dead to the world, and dead people, the last time I checked, have no rights. Christ lives through us, did Christ stand up for His rights? Did He holler and scream when the temple guards arrested Him in the dark, at a time when the rest of council was still asleep?

Paul wrote most of the NT in jail because he went against govt orders.
The three Hebrews didn't "bow down".
Daniel wasn't in the lion's den to work on his lion-taming.
The Bible is full of stories that demonstrate the fact that we shouldn't submit.
How about when God told Elijah that there were 7000 (gotta check that!) that hadn't bent the knee to Baal? 

Now I don't know if they respectfully refused or disrespectfully refused...the point is they REFUSED!  *smile*

The Constitution is the foundation and source of the legal authority underlying the existence of the United States of America and the Federal Government of the United States.

But the Office of President is the governing authority.

 The President has to follow the Constitution unless or until a new Constitution is ratified, which by the way, some are calling for another amendment ratification, or even another Constitution, which if in force, will then be according to what you write, the governing authority. so if a new Constitution is ratified, will you follow it?

As usual Brother Todd ...WOW!   again.... WOW!

The Christians's governing authority is the Bible."  The Bible is God's Word and is our guide for faith and practice

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 AMEN

A TIMELY REMINDER.

Todd, bro, that was so very well put. Your comment really is a blog unto itself, and a very good one. To live is Christ, and we are free, even in a jail cell. God bless you and praise the Lord!

Gerald, that's what I'm talking about! 

Brother Todd,

This has been about the choices we as believers make - Nothing more, nothing less.  You said, "Was it God's best will to give the people a king?  Of course not, He wanted it to be a theocracy but He allowed and orchestrated everything even to Christ coming from the Davidic lineage.  It was His will all along and nothing ever knocks Him off of His game".  I understand that God will shape the believer into the shape He chooses (Himself)  but that does not mean that all that in authority are sent by God.  In the case of Saul in I Samuel 8, he was a workaround.  We all know that David was the one God wanted to be king.  Yes, God always gets what He wants, however that does not mean Christians sit on their "blessed assurance" not hold their leaders - once again that THEY, not God chose accountable for their actions.  You stated, "There is hope that God can work through President Obama to accomplish His purposes"  If Obama has any purpose, it is to get lazy, apathetic, non-Kingdom minded Christians off the "blessed assurance" to turn from wicked ways (meaning changing their focus from themselves to ushering in the Kingdom of God.  Not just through soul-winning, but establishing a righteous government by electing righteous people so that all can benefit)  Read Proverbs 29:2 for more clarification.  I never said nor implied that I can do anything without Him.  Quite the opposite is true.  But if I can take my talent and educate the Body that the Kingdom is not just some etheral place that we hope on seeing after we take out last here on the Earth.  I want the Kingdom to manifest in my government in the Earth, RIGHT NOW!!

Remember what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 6:10:
Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. 

The same type government in Heaven is the same of government I want on the Earth.  A righteous government with the absence of wickedness. 

The reason why God wanted a government like that.....He CHOSE it.

Gerald, we will NEVER have that govenment, not until His return.

Remember who the high powers were back then, ROME, now why would Paul write this? Does he ever say to go against the leaders? NEVER!

sorry, forgot the rest of 1 timothy

Debbie, you wrote  Tyranny is not God's will...but civil govt (based on Hebraic law), indeed is.
Govt by a free people is God-ordained...sanctioned by God...

Where is it written that WE have to bring about God's will?

Is He not powerful enough to bring about His own will, or does He need our help.

Is He too old, and feeble to help Himself?

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106304

Just go willingly, Gary.
Remember, for the Jews (and other dissidents in the German camps), there was American (and the allies)...There will be no "America" for us...

Voice, you said: when the government starts to intrude on that, I will fight and I will fight hard

Is this what Christ and the apostles taught?

 I don't rememeber reading anywhere that Christ said to stand up against the government.

As to being responsible for your family, what happened to 

Voice said...I am responsible for my dominion over my family and when the government starts to intrude on that, I will fight and I will fight hard.
AMEN!

Debbie, thanks for the link.

I did read it, and if it comes to them locking us up because we are Christian, yes I go willingly, I will rejoice for the opportunity to suffer for Christ!

Debbie, OT and NT. When Christ came He told us to LOVE our enemy!

And I already know in my heart that I will probably see my son die before my eyes. I am teaching him, that no matter what happens, never compromise his faith. Even if he sees a gun to my or his mom's head. Never reject Christ or His teachings.

And I have told him I will do the same if they put a gun to my wife's or son's head.

PULL the trigger, send me HOME!

"My people perish for lack of knowledge".
"Many will say, Lord, Lord..."

Debbie, that is right, many will say Lord Lord.... He will say... get away for I never knew you!

Debbie, I asked this earlier but you never answered the question.

If the Constitution is abolished, as it seems that this President seems determined to do, or is changed radically, then you will be bound to follow the changed or new Constitution, is this correct?

If a thief steals from us, what I am hearing is this... you can justify using force to prevent someone taking what belongs to you.

But Christ said:

smiteth: toop'-to primary verb (in a strengthened form); to “thump”, that is, cudgel or pummel (properly with a stick or bastinado), but in any case by repeated blows; thus differing from paio and patasso, which denote a [usually single] blow with the hand or any instrument, or plesso with the fist [or a hammer], or rhapidzo with the palm; as well as from tugchano, an accidental collision); by implication to punish; figuratively to offend (the conscience): - beat, smite, strike, wound.

 taketh: airō A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare nasa nasah) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

 forbid not: kōluō From the base of kolazo; to estop, that is, prevent (by word or act): - forbid, hinder, keep from, let, not suffer, withstand.

So according to scripture, if someone takes what belongs to us, we are not to stop them, nor to prevent them from taking anything else.

Brother Todd,

In your previous post you stated: "For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.  It's not really saying that, it is saying something else or there is a caviat or an exception"?  

What I noticed that you use Roman 13:1-2 a lot in your argument.  What I also notice being conspicuosly absent is verse 3-4 which says:

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

You have taken Scripture out of context.  Anytime you take Scripture out of context you make it a pretext and at that point you can make it mean anything you want.  Verses 1-2 speaks of submitting to authority.  Verses 3-4 speaks of WHY.  The purpose of authority is simply this:  To reward the righteous and to punish the wicked. - Nothing more, Nothing less.  This is the reason why when you do evil, God allows authority to carry the sword (gun).

In Jeremiah 17:9 it says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This is prescisely the reason the Founding Fathers wrote the 2nd amendment in the  Constitution.  They knew that the heart of man was evil and they wanted to have the citizens prepared if an evil day (like this one) would ever materialize in our country. 

It is very apparent to me that Barak Obama (cant all him President - hasnt satisfied Article II of the Constitution yet):

1) Does not believe the Bible as it is written (He sat under a "Pastor" who preached Black Liberation Theology for 20 years).

2) Has an absolute hatred for freedom as the Founding Fathers have defined it.

3)  Has appointed over 30 people to oversee the nation's interests without the advice and consent of the Senate.

Yet you think that God put this man in the Oval Office?  I dont think so. I have said before and I will say it again:

On November 4, 2008 we the people of the United States of America have elected Saul.  Read I Samuel 9 to see what Saul (Obama) will do next.

your comment above,

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Paul wrote this while Rome was in control, and Israel was ruled by despots.

 Verses 1-2 speaks of submitting to authority.  Verses 3-4 speaks of WHY.  The purpose of authority is simply this:  To reward the righteous and to punish the wicked. - Nothing more, Nothing less.  This is the reason why when you do evil, God allows authority to carry the sword (gun).

So he was saying to submit to Rome and the rulers of Israel.

round and round we go, where we stop no one knows.....

Ok, Gerald, I was refuting your comment, you think we are to stand and fight the President with rebellion. Because you don't agree with his policies, and he goes against the Constitution. But Romans tells us that we are to be subject to those in authority over us. We are not to be in rebellion.

Notice in Romans, it is speaking about a person/people in charge, not a document (Constitution)

If you are in rebellion, then you are still in the flesh, and follow your father Satan,

for Christ NEVER said to be in rebellion, but to submit.

Debbie, what does this have to do with

Tyranny is not God's will...but civil govt (based on Hebraic law), indeed is.
Govt by a free people is God-ordained...sanctioned by God...

I wrote what you quoted in response to your post above. 

As to being powerful enough....

Mat 3:9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 

 So could He have? Did He not place Adan and Eve here?

Christ came through Mary in order to fulfill prophesy, and to show us His humanity also. 

Christ became our final sacrifice, because the only was to remove sin is by blood.

Gary,

Once again you seem to be missing the point.  The point is unlike 1st centrury Rome where authority was appointed by Ceasar, Our form of goverment uses the Constitution to spell out what our leaders can and can not do. 

This document that you and I live under is the law of the land. ALL leaders must submit to this document as we do.  When this does not happen, we have a duty to remove that leader from office.  That duty is carried out by the Senate (a body of people that WE CHOSE, not God).  If they choose not to do their duty, it is our duty to remove THEM. 

An example of that is in California where Gray Davis in 2001 said he would triple the car registration tax.  The people said if you do that, we will remove you from office.  In 2002 he was elected (by people, not God). He tripled the car registration tax.  In 2003 he was removed from office (once again by people, not God). 

The reason why we are able to have is discussion in the first is because of "that document" (Constittution) Not because the authorities in government allow it.  Just in case you didn't know.

Gary, what it has to do with the conversation is this...God uses vessels (read that people) to bring about His Will in the Earth?  The question was posed and I responded to the question with a question...Jesus did the same thing...

He used/uses people to bring the Gospel..."How lovely...are the feet of them that bring good news!"

Yes, He does use us, but our discussion has been about whether we have the right to fight the government.

Debbie, if your focus is on the government, and the ills it has caused to you, then you have been distracted from the kingdom of God.

Our focus should NOT be what this government, or any government is doing, but rather what am I/you doing for the kingdom of God. 

Fighting a corrupt government, a corrupt President, or anything else here on earth is futile, for it is only temporary, but the kingdom of God is eternal. 

So what are you fight in FOR. Eternity or a fleeting vapor?

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Brother Todd, you sure know how to stir the pot. 

Many great points made here by all.  You know what, I think this discussion probably raged back in the 1770s as our country was being founded.  It will likely continue to rage until Jesus comes back to take us home.  My life will be spent praying for my family, friends and yes government officials, even those I did not vote for.  I will also act in a political way to challenge those in power that I do not agree with.  However I will always lay my choices before my God for His direction. 

Great discussion all.

Gary,

You said, "Our focus should NOT be what this government, or any government is doing, but rather what am I/you doing for the kingdom of God". 

The "kingpin" of everyone's argument is this:  Where does rights come from?  There are only two sources where they come from:  God or government.  Which is it for you? 

I believe God is the one who gave us our rights therfore government (regardless of who's in it)  DOES NOT have the right to take them away.  If (or when) they try, it is my duty to preserve what God has given me.

Since we are the owners of nothing, and the stewards of everything, and our rights come from God;  What are YOU doing to make sure those rights you have and enjoy, you are passing on to your children?  

If government takes those rights away, how will answer God when He asks, "What did you do with the freedom I gave you"? What will be your response?

Remember the rewards of this life are given at the Judgement seat of Christ (bema).   

Glenn, amen!

My life will be spent praying for my family, friends and yes government officials, even those I did not vote for.

And I too will challenge those in power, but not in rebellion. 

I will challenge the system in the voting booth. But demonstrations, whether peaceful or not, I "think"  is a form of protest. And that is my problem.

Our focus should be on the kingdom of God.

Gerald, you wrote:

The "kingpin" of everyone's argument is this:  Where does rights come from?  There are only two sources where they come from:  God or government.  Which is it for you? 

I believe God is the one who gave us our rights therfore government (regardless of who's in it)  DOES NOT have the right to take them away.  If (or when) they try, it is my duty to preserve what God has given me.

What rights do we have as Christians, where in the Bible do we find these rights.

God is not a respecter of man, we are all equal in His eyes, so why would He give you rights, but not the Christians in China, or Vietnam?

So to answer your question.... the rights we have in America are by the government.

Here are the "rights" I find in the Bible.

We have the right to pray, to speak about Christ, (when we exercise these rights, we also have the right to be persecuted)

We have the right to have a daily portion of nourishment, if we ask the Father, but if someone asks for our portion, we must give it to them.

He never gave us the right to a house, a job, life, liberty (physical), for we are already free spiritually.  He never said we could have a lawyer, or a fair trial (He did not get one either), He never gave us the right to bare arms.

In fact, He promised us we would be persecuted for our faith. That we would be imprisoned, beaten, mocked, and even murdered.

We only have these rights, that the Government gave us, until the Government takes them away.

Just because the Constitution says God gave us these rights, does not mean that God gave us these rights. It is a document written my men.

The Constitution is NOT the Word of God.

Gerald, you keep pointing towards man, but I ask again, where in the Word of God does it say we have these rights, that these men wrote about.

I say, I don't care what man says, for man is always going to be fallible, out for what his flesh wants. 

If you follow man, then do so, but if you follow Christ, then do so... for you can not have both.

What you are writing shows where your heart is. From what you write, you follow man.

no offense taken, just a thought on your last comment.  I tend to believe that we can't legislate a change of heart, and it takes a change of heart to be able to live for and follow Jesus, So really the only effective method to bring about Gods will on earth, would be prayer and living out our faith before men.

just a thought.

For the record, dear Bro. Todd,
I am not against govt...Govt is a God-ordained institution...And I LOVE the history of the founding of my country...It's so obvious, the hand of God in it...You can youtube quotes of the Founding Fathers...good stuff!  And our Constitution was made only for a moral people...that's why so many have a problem with it...
Any rally or protest that I've ever attending has been totally peaceful...so it seems that some up here have the wrong idea...My children protest daily....lol...and they do it peacefully!

I'm not anti-govt...I love God's govt!  But we shouldn't tolerate govt corruption when we are required to deal with it...the "law of the land" as far as America is concerned, is the Constitution not what the person in the office of the President says it is...

Am watching "Andy Hardy Meets Debutante" with Mickey Rooney. Andy's father talks about how the courts treat the poor and rich equally under the law, and says God willing always will. It is sad, the direction this nation has gone in the last 60 years. All my point is we as Christians can not be anti-government, as you confirmed in your earlier post Deb.

I have a friend back where I used to live, this guy is VERY anti-government, and calls himself a Christian.  

Deb. I second Todd's post. 

Gerald, if our American rights come from God, then who removes those rights, when for example someone goes to prison, or is convicted of a felony. And their rights to bear arms have been removed. If man can take away that right, then how is it a right from God?

Also, if God never changes, then how is it the Bill of Rights can be changed, if it came from God, then it should never be changed. Thus the amendments can not come from God, since He never changes.

And if He is not a respecter of persons, why then does not everyone get these same rights in the world? Or does He love America more than the rest of the world?

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When there's a conflict..."We ought to obey God rather than man".

Here is something I just learned. I am getting ready to teach my son about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for Home School.

There are un-ratified bills, that are being enforced.

 The Equal Rights amendment has expired.

The Nobility amendment is still pending... King Obama?

Unratified proposed amendments

Before an amendment can take effect, it must be proposed to the states by a two-thirds vote of both houses of Congress, and ratified by three-quarters of the states. Six amendments proposed by Congress have failed to be ratified by the appropriate number of states' legislatures. Four of these amendments are still technically pending before state lawmakers—the other two have expired by their own terms.

Here is a list of all the other proposed amendments

In the constitution, section 9 it states:

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state. 

Does the provision highlighted mean, if the Congress wants to they can make Obama king, since the Title of Nobility amendment was never passed???