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| Does Forgiveness Have Boundaries? |
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Does it have limits? Is there a portion where those boundaries need to be pushed in order to forgive? Are people supposed to forget about what happened to them as if it never happened? Or what would happen if you came face-to-face with a person that made your life so miserable - that you felt like giving up? And final question before I launch into this message, what happens if you can't do it yourself? Tough questions aren't they if people allowed themselves to think about it. So for however long it takes for people to read this message, I want people to think about it as if it happened to you.
As people well know, I've written about my boarding school days which were not happy ones. At night-time, whenever the lights were put out before people went to sleep, if anyone was caught talking whilst the lights were out, they had to stand in the corridor touching their toes until such time the teacher went off duty - which was 10 o'clock at night. So if anyone was caught talking at 7 o'clock at night for example, it would be three more hours before you went back to bed. And just before getting back into bed, three whacks of the slipper was administered before we were allowed to get back into bed. And as people who read my stuff well know again, I had water poured all over my bed - then was forced to lie in it. And going back to the slipper episode, I heard more whacks of the slipper in one night - than I ever did in a whole year when I was at home. And believe me when I say this, but my dad was a strict disciplinarian when it came to us kids having to behave ourselves. So I don't say that lightly as I write this, as 5 years at boarding school dictated the next 15 years of my life, some of which when I think about it - still angers me. And to be truthful with people here, I don't know what my reaction would be if I ever came face-to-face with any of those people who did it to me. Correction. I did come face-to-face with one person about 5 years ago, and his reaction compared to my reaction were poles apart, as the last time I saw this person was about 35 years ago when we were in our early teens, and he talked about the good old days - where I only remembered the bad old days. And when he tried to get chummy with me - I backed right off. No way did I want to get involved with him - because of all the hurtful memories I had about things in the past about it. So I won't even go into the name-calling that happened, because that affected me too. And to this day, if anyone gets in my face in an unsavoury manner shall we say, my reaction is 10-fold compared to theirs, because nowadays it would be called child abuse. But that's what people of my generation had to put up with whilst growing up as kids. Now to enter the stride of my message, does forgiveness have boundaries. First scripture to focus on:
Genesis 50:15 [NIV]. When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, "What if Joseph holds a grudge against us and pays us back for all the wrong we did to him?"
Good question isn't it? That "What if" hides a whole lot of stuff when it happens to someone. That "What if" has no boundaries, people don't know what people will do when if someone reacts to it, and nobody knows what the outcome will be if they reacted towards it. Take note, I said towards it. Take note of what happened next when Joseph heard the news.
Genesis 50:16-17 [NIV]. So they sent word to Joseph, saying, "Your father left these instructions before he died. This is what you are to say to Joseph: I ask you to forgive your bothers the sins and the wrongs they committed in treating you so badly.' Now please forgive the sins of the servants of the God of your father." When their message came to him, he wept.
Question. Was he weeping through the loss of his father, or all the wrong-doing that was done to him when he was sold into slavery - and they told his father that he was dead? Looking at that "What if" again in another context, it carries a whole lot of burden when it happens to you, doesn't it? Why? Because if it hasn't happened to you, it would be easy to forgive. But when it does happen to you, that forgiveness takes on a whole new meaning. If I were to put this part of the message in a nutshell, it can either strengthen people up - or tear them to pieces. Now let me take it to another level.
Whenever I think about the boundaries of forgiveness, does that include child molesters? Does that include murderer's as another example? And here's that phrase again. What if the only person who gets a life sentence for the crime - are the victims who have lost loved ones? Pretty weighty situation isn't it when you think about it. So let me now take it to another level.
Sometimes (not always) that forgiveness has to come from somewhere else. Its not that people can't forgive, but the damage has been so imprinted on them - that they cannot forgive from a personal level. So that forgiveness has to come from another direction in order for them to survive. On the other-hand, if people harbour unforgiveness, its like taking a bitter pill - hoping somebody else will die, but the only person its killing - is you. So I'm now going to focus - that when it happens to you - and no one else, how something has to bridge the gap - because they cannot forgive people themselves - because its too close for comfort in order to forgive. In other words, it has to come from another direction other than from yourself.
There's been a lot of talk about forgiveness - and that people should always forgive, but that forgiveness has to come from the heart. In other words, people have to dig deep within themselves else it will screw them up. But it doesn't mean they forget about it. As the years go by, the pain gets lesser and lesser. So there comes a point in life - that although people remember it, it doesn't hurt as much as it used to, but there again it does - because if its serious enough, they will relive it as if it happened yesterday. So before people go off on one, I want you to get your thinking cap on as I end this message.
Luke 23:34 [NIV]. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."
That is the ultimate example that everyone goes by when something happens to them, and its cast out to everybody that they should do it. But I looked at that scripture again. Its says "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing." Does anybody see anything here? If not, let me try and simplify it without trying to offend anybody (which it no doubt will), that forgiveness had to come from another direction, because with all the stuff that had happened to Him before that, and everything He was having to deal with at that point in time after that, it was a bit too close for comfort for Him to deal with personally and on a personal basis. In other words, Jesus handed the whole situation over to God for Him to do it. So I go back to partway through my message - that it is a heart situation, and in some instances - it has to come from a different direction than those it is affecting the most.
Without de-emphasizing what happened on the cross - which has never been my intention to do, whenever I think of events that have happened in my life, that forgiveness has to come from another direction - because I personally can't handle it. And before people go off on one again, I know what it means to be forgiven. But that forgiveness had to come from another direction to enable me to handle it, because I know what happened to me - and so did that other person. So if I were to put this whole message in a nutshell, it would go something like this: I hand the whole situation over to you God - because I myself can't handle it. Why? Because whenever I think about it, its too close for comfort. So whenever a person says to someone, you've got to do it, think about the situation they're in and have faced. For some its easy, for some its not. And for some (whenever they think about it) there has to be a bridge between it because they can't handle it. Can anybody think what that bridge is when that happens? I think that for some people who may be reading this, that bridge happens when they say "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing" because they cannot do it for themselves personally and on a personal basis - because it is too close for comfort when people ask them to. Last paragraph.
Whenever a person asks someone to forgive someone, can we at least be honest with ourselves and tell them, I need somebody else to bridge that gap for me, because at this moment in time - I can't do it? In that way - it gives them a bit of a gap, that in any given situation - people need that bit of a respite space to enable them to forgive that other person, when everything around them is telling them to give up and to not forgive. All it needs is a bit of understanding for it to take effect - that it is not always as simple as saying those words "I forgive you" - and that it needs somebody else to say it for them for it to work. And if I were to hone this message right down it its basics, if somebody else said "I forgive you" - it will enable you to forgive somebody else of what they have done to you when it happened. And the quickest way to do it - is to forgive them straight away, and not let it hang around and fester for years - because that other person never said those words "I forgive you." A lot of people suffer because they've never heard that phrase in their entire life, and there has to be something in the middle that bridges the gap because they can't handle it themselves personally. And for risk of repeating myself, because its to close for people's comfort when they're in an uncomfortable situation. To add guilt and condemnation onto people that can hardly stand with what they already got - only makes that gap wider. Maybe I should have titled this message "The Gap Between Forgiveness and Unforgiveness" because in some circumstance - there certainly is one, but nobody sees it but the person themselves, and that's when people need to step in and do it for them - because they cannot do it for themselves. Here ends my message. |
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| To add a comment to "Does Forgiveness Have Boundaries?" |
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| October 09, 2009 |
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| October 09, 2009 |
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My friend Steve! There you go again, pushing my buttons LOL! Okay, now that I have my thinking cap on, I will try to respond to your thoughts on this very delicate subject.
In a nutshell, I have had to deal with this subject throughout my Christian (born-again) life on many occasions. The very first time I was told by the Holy Spirit to call a woman my husband had an affair with to tell her I forgave her. The reason being is that if she had ever came close to me I felt I would have literally strangled her with my bare hands (I came very close at one time) as this woman is a member of an (out- law) lol, and I felt betrayed not only by my husband but the entire family because it was known by many and I felt like such a fool at family gatherings, that I had to get drunk to face these people. However, I decided to have an affair myself to quench the pain that adultery causes. Well, the pain subsided for a little while but it opened the door for other affairs until my conscience was consuming me to the point where I almost had a nervous breakdown. When I became filled with the Holy Spirit I was told to call this woman and tell her that I forgave her. Well, I called this woman who happened to be in this country at the time and happened to answer the phone of the person she was staying at the time (I was not aware that she even was in this country because I had remained out of touch with these people). I calmly told her that I was aware of the affair she had with my husband and that I forgve her. She cussed me out and admitted she had a very brief affair with my husband and so what and promptly hung up the phone on me. When I hung up the phone I felt such a weight come off my heart and a light was put there in place of darkness and depression. I never felt the pain of that situation again and if I met this woman right now, I believe I would give her a hug and tell her that I will like to see her in heaven and not hell because I understand why the flesh is weak and yields itself to destructive behavior. Now, I know that it is the Holy Spirit inside of me that causes me to want to forgive these people, because I could not do it. The human beings that we are is just not capable of releasing our minds from the memories and the pains inflicted on us by someone else.
Now, to forgive my husband is another story. My heavenly Father took me back throughout our years together and showed me what I had done to cause my husband to want to be with someone else and that did it. G-d also showed me my sins and caused me to see the weakness in humanity and He also showed me those people going to hell eternally. See. G-d had to show me what a retch I was to him (G-d). I repented and vowed never to have an affair ever again, and that broke the yoke. Now almost every time my husband does something to hurt me, I ask G-d to forgive him and to forgive me for allowing my husband to get me angry, and that is how I am able to retain my peace, love and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Bottom line, Stevie, without the power of the Holy Spirit inside of an individual, we all would be doomed to failure, unforgiveness and the wretched life that unforgiveness brings. The prisons are full of people who decided to take that unforgiveness to another level and the mental asylums are also full of people who would not find it in their hearts to yield to the wooing of the Holy Spirit to forgive that person who hurt them.. I love you my friend You sister in Christ |
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| October 09, 2009 |
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| October 10, 2009 |
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I hear what you're saying Marcia.
On a personal basis, forgiveness is something that comes from the heart, and its between the person themselves - and God. So if I were to refer back to my encounter with that person that I'd never seen in about 35 years, would it have been right for me to drag something up that was 35 years old? Believe me, I understand what you're saying. In my instance only, would it have been right to off-load something off me that had been hanging about like a bad smell - and plant it somewhere else as if to make them feel guilt and suffer for what they did that was 35 years old? Its like I've said in my message. My experience compared to their experience was poles apart. They remembered the good old days, I remembered the bad old days. And here's the cruncher of it all. They were both experienced at the same place. You could say the Valley of Achor (known as the valley of troubling) was also considered a door of hope to those who entered into it, because they both happened at the same place, but considered differently when experienced. So if the Holy Spirit placed that in your heart to phone somebody up and say that you forgive them, who is anybody (including myself) to argue with it? You did what you thought was right, and that to me is the end of the story. And going back to the beginning of your response. Yes I agree its a very delicate subject, because sometimes (not always) - somebody has to step in the gap - when that other person cannot do it for themselves because its too close for comfort, and at that moment in time - they can't handle it because its too painful to deal with. So that being said. Given time, who knows. But I myself will not heap guilt and condemnation onto a person that can hardly stand up with what they have already got - because that can ultimately send them over the edge. I could go deeper into that, because some people make bold statements about something - when they know nothing whatsoever about the situation. And thanks Denise for the star. |
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| October 10, 2009 |
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[star!] | I will get back to you on this one my friend, I just received news that my little friend passed away. |
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| October 10, 2009 |
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| I got your message Crystal. Be in touch when you can, OK? |
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| October 10, 2009 |
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| I will Mr. Bee |
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| October 11, 2009 |
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I see what your saying, The Lord, placed all He had just went through in the Fathers hands. He knew he had to forgive but in His humanity, He couldn't do it! Very Good, thank you for bringing this out. Makes all the more sense. And like Marcia said if it were not for the Holy Spirit, who dwells within us we could not do it either. And if I may say, even with the Holy Spirit prompting you to do the right thing. A battle wages on. Do we ever forget no. But in time ,our pain is eased and we come to a place where we are numb or our heart does not ache. I think some things should not be forgiven. If I am to be honest. But then again, if it's not forgiven, you are bound by the hurt it caused. I have struggled with unforgiveness and it is not easy being in that place. I feel so much condemnation. Who am I to seek the Lord for a need to be met? Oh I thank Him for knowing my heart better than I or anyone else. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| Hi Sis Cece. I won't add to what you've said, and I won't take anything away from what's been said. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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[star!] | Stevie, another great post my friend. On a personal note, I battled with unforgiveness for quite some time. My wife's youngest brother had been murdered and we know who did it. His death was ruled a suicide. His death also involved the local police dept. in his home town, and everyone ran scared from them. My family was being torn apart from this incident. It had gotten so bad that I began to get phone calls in the middle of the night warning me to back off. They had warned me that they knew where I lived and who my kids were. Forgiveness is most difficult when we have been wronged. Jesus said in order to be forgiven I must first learn to forgive, and learn I did. It doesn't bother me anymore, but I do know that if what I think happened actually did, God is the righteous judge, not me. I had to go on and without forgiveness, I couldn't . Lots of food for thought here my friend. Blessings to you. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| Hi Tim. I read perfectly what you wrote, and yes there are lots of food for thoughts in what you have said, but I stick by what I said to Marcia and a few others here. Forgiveness has to come from the heart, and its between the person themselves - and God. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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Amen. Peace to you my Brother. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| I understand this perfectly Mr. Bee. I'm still trying to forgive. Some are no problem, I've released them a long time ago, or should I say, I've released myself? Others are still like a thorn in my side because their still in my life. Like Tim, My daughter in law and unborn baby were killed years ago by a drunk driver whose uncle just happened to be our chief of police. My son was devastated and still is today. How can you make your child understand? It's so easy to tell him he has to forgive,we're not walking in his shoes. My sister has let herself be eaten alive by unforgiveness. We think we're making them pay when in reality, we're the ones paying. Unforgiveness will eat away at the center of your heart if you let it, and soon it will be what destroys you. I t seems like when you think the healing process is complete, someone picks at it or worse, you pick at it. Reminds me of Mrs. J and her scab pickin blog. This past week I've asked several friends for bandaids, they know what I mean. The bandaid only protects the would from infection, it doesn't heal it. My question is how do we seek forgiveness from the ones we've hurt? Going to them is not an option, unless I want to be ridiculed and be called things I've never even heard of before. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| Hi Crystal. There's a saying over here - and it goes like this: let sleeping dogs lie. If the person on the other end refuses to accept someones forgiveness, its their problem - not the other person's. Get my drift? In other words, refuse to be an open target for more ridecule. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| I understand Mr. Bee........ Forgiveness should be easy, becasuse we know what Christ said.......... but its a lot easier when we're tellin someone else they have to do it then it is to tell ourselves. Wounds that are infected start stinking after awhile if not left alone Mr. Bee..... The kind of stink that attracts the flies if you get my drift |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| You're so right on that one. Its easy to say it to someone else - when you're not the one who's wearing the shoes... |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| So I will be honest Mr. Bee, I need help from Christ to forgive certain people cause I have tried and cannot do it on my own. All I am doing is hurting myself and so is everyone else who chooses not to forgive. I don't think we're hurting them one bit. |
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| October 12, 2009 |
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| In fact, they could be feeding on it. So let it go Crystal. You've done your bit, its up to them to do theirs. |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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| well to be honst Mr. Bee, there is one who I haven't went to because it would accomplish nothing except tongue lashing and spit in my face, and I don't know if I can handle that anymore. Thats why I broke away from this person on the first place. I have sent words of forgiveness and asked for forgiveness throught the grape vine. Somwhow, it doesn't seem to be enough. As far as the forgetting part of your question, do we really forget Mr. Bee? Can we? because I would like to be able to forget as well as forgive. |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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Stevie, I have been off the "puter" for the past few days and today I am trying to catch up on reading blogs and responses.
My friend, I prayed that you would get the context of what I wrote. I could not have forgiven anyone without the Holy Spirit inside of me and no one could either. That is why I cannot condemn anyone if they choose not to forgive. However, I believe the benefit of forgiveness is for the one who chooses to do so because we would have no peace until we do so. Get my drift Mr. Bee? Lol. It all happens in G-d's own time and begins and ends in the heart. You will know if you have truly forgiven someone, because there will be peace that surpasses all understanding.
Love you my friend. |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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| Hi Crystal. In answer to your question about forgetting. Aiming that question at myself. Although forgiving, how come I have never forgotten what happened whilst at boarding school? Get my drift? And I get your drift also Marcia - as I read between the lines of what you wrote. Seems "get my drift" is catching on... :o) |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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| I don't think we ever forget Mr. Bee, unless God himself washes it from our memory. When I became older, I started remembering things that happened to me in the past, but it had to be brought out by someone else reminding me. I had somehow put it in the back of my mind and was able to go on with my life in a normal way.if thats what you call normal. Anyway, I know Jesus said we had to forgive, but I don't remember him saying anything about forgetting. Maybe I'm wrong. |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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| Hi Crystal, your not wrong. We won't forget. It just gets tucked away. Speaking about my own experience. And if the hurt is too bad to handel the Lord allows us to forget. I know. I can't remember certain time frames in my life and I wonder why. Was it just to tramatic? Am I not supposed to remember? Here's a good one. Do I have to? I will say this, I know it all comes down to this. What do we do with the memory? |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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| some of the things I've been reminded of Sis were very tramatic, so how could I have surpressed them long enough to live my life without letting it affect my children? The only logical answer is like you said, the Lord allows us to forget. I have another question, where in Gods word does he say we are to forgive AND forget? I don't think it matters how long we surpress something, sooner or in my case later, something is going to happen and that memory will raise its ugly head. |
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| October 13, 2009 |
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It doesn't. We forgive, or we are told to forgive so our Father in heaven can forgive. I was thinking about the memorys coming back after such along time of it not being there. That's a hard one. Does the Lord want us to be able to confront the pain and fall to knees, give it to him, let healing come. Or is the adversary doing his best to steal our joy, strengh..ect.? |
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| October 14, 2009 |
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| Most times the memories does not leave they pop back up occasionally. I believe that is to test us to see how we would handle it. Would we yield to the old emotions or would we just rebuke the thoughts and keep on trucking. I personally believe that Satan is not worth my time of day and I refuse to entertain thoughts of doom and gloom. The past can never be brought back it is dead and gone and there is nothing that we can do about it. Sometimes it is good to just write out the thoughts and then have a bon fire and burn it all up. It is called (Marcia's Spiritual cleansing). LOL. |
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| October 15, 2009 |
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| I think that's a good idea Marcia, thanks! |
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| October 15, 2009 |
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Sis Cece, as a matter of fact it is a very good idea. If my back yard could speak, it would tell you how many memories I have burned up LOL!
Here is an example of my recent burning. A relative had written thoughts of suicide and really demonic, angry and hateful words towards his father on pieces of paper and left it at a relative's home. Years later, this relative decided that he would bring these pieces of paper into my home and give it to my husband to give to the father. I discerned this individual maliciously wanted to hurt the one who wrote on the paper and his father and he would use my husband to do his dirty work. After he left, I remembered the papers and I prayed about what my husband should do. The Holy Spirit told me to burn it and pray for the one who wrote on it and his father. I said Holy Spirit, you have to tell my husband the same thing. I then called my husband at work and immediately he said we should burn it. I took the papers outside and had to use up almost a whole box of matches. It took quite a while to finally burn out. Afterwards, I felt such peace and love for this individual and his parents. I just now remembered that my husband told me recently this individual's father has been calling him and speaking to him really nice. (You have to know that the father was always very angry and jealous towards my husband).
What if my husband had given this individual's father these papers to co-operate with a malicious deed? He would have been devasted because of the thoughts that was generated towards him. I burned up the unforgiveness and anger. G-d works in mysterious ways my friend. Neither the kid nor his dad know what I have done nor what his son thought of him at one time. Bad memories are better left alone. |
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| October 15, 2009 |
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[star!] | He did it for you, and He sure did for me.
Amen, Old Man! |
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| October 16, 2009 |
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Yep Old Man, I love it!!!!!!!!! |
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| October 16, 2009 |
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| Thanks for sharing that Marcia. It is wonderful to know that you, prayed, obeyed and God gets the glory! I have to remember this burning up the bad memories. I wonder if it will work for others. Like standing in prayer for others. Why not write down my prayes for them, so the pain will burn and they will be realesed! After all this is the reason for this post. Those that need help forgiving, but can't themselves. I'll pray also of course. God bless you. |
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| November 03, 2009 |
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yesterday Mr. Bee, I was asking myself this same question again. I truthly haven't come up with a solid answer yet. Sometimes I think yes, sometimes I think no. Does forgiveness have boundries? Does forgiveness mean allowing the same thing over and over and over again? Does refusing to let it happen over and over and over again mean I'm not forgiving ? I don't know. I thought it ment I was just being wise................ |
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| November 03, 2009 |
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| Good questions Crystal. I too have not come up with a solid answer. I could say I forgive, but it only takes something to pop its head up for all those feelings (emotions) to rise up again. So my only conclusion is, we can forgive, but do we ever forget? |
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| November 03, 2009 |
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I think we forget when we die Mr. Bee. Untill then, we just need not to bring it up. Yeah those things will pop back up, but we don't have to speak therm. I remember hurts from years ago, when I was little, but I don't speak them. I want to, I can't lie, but I don't.What good is it going to do? Nothing. I ask you this, and anybody else who cares to comment, is turning the other cheek forgiving, or allowing ourselves to be used? |
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| November 05, 2009 |
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Hi Stevie, Forgiveness has no boundaries as you note. There are, however, consequences for our actions. I can forgive the drunk who backed his car into my wife while she was standing next to our car. But her leg is still broken and he still has to stand before the judge for his offense and face the consequences. "What a man sows, so shall he reap." We cannot eliminate that.
We also have the opportunity to decide what to do about relationships after the offense. Just because we forgive does not mean we forget. There is no reason to repeat foolishness.
I find one thing particularly interesting. We can only forgive those who wrong us. We has no ability to forgive anyone whop wronged anyone else because we have no investment in the offense. But our Lord has chosen to forgive EVERYONE all their offenses to everyone. |
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| November 08, 2009 |
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Hi Crystal. I've thought about what you've said, and you know what my initial thought was behind it. But I've been thinking... and people know what that means when I go into thought mode.
Sometime back I wrote a blog called "The Making's of a Champion." In that message I wrote - I said this: The makings of a champion is not how many blows people can take, but how many blows people can take...and still get back up. Does that answer your question?
Gene. Sorry for the delay. It caught my attention when you said "We also have the opportunity to decide what to do about relationships after the offense. Just because we forgive does not mean we forget. There is no reason to repeat foolishness."
So many people confuse "forgive" with "forget." Fair enough, people can choose to do both. But depending on the severity of the offense, very rarely do people forget. And I know it maybe a mixture of words as I write this, but on the forgetting part of your comment, is that the reason people repeat things? Let me put it another way. The head may forget, but the heart still remembers. |
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| November 08, 2009 |
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I think Gene made made a good point when he talked about consequences for actions. It can't be eliminated.
It's so good to see you, Gene. |
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| November 08, 2009 |
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I think Gene made made a good point when he talked about consequences for actions. It can't be eliminated.
It's so good to see you, Gene. |
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| November 08, 2009 |
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| You're right Joey. Problem is - people don't think like that. People think that everything is eliminated. Especially Christians. In short. Everything is forgiven - with no consequences for what they have done. |
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