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Brother Mike,

If you need spiritual food ...... look in to the Bible and understand what God is telling us!

Brother Patrick,  It is good that Mike posted this.  I think we all have a tendency to 'grow spiritually'.  This is the reason why we are talking about this. This is the reason why people leave the church to go to another church or 'greener pasturers'. 

I am convinced strongly, if we feel the church is not growing and no one talks about it except we, then it is our responsibility to start talking about it to others and take actions accordingly so that the next generation is taken care of.  

Presently we are doing just this in our church.

I have experienced this and the results were different both times.  The first, I was in a church that never grew spiritually.  God led me out of that church to a church that continues to grow in Christ. 
The other time was a time when I did not have ears to hear.  I loved the world.  it was hard to concentrate on the sermon when I was thinking, when will this be over? where are we going to go for lunch?  I have so many things I could be doing. 
Now, that state of mind, God had to fix.  And he did.  What a faithful GOD!  How good of Him to pull me out of that luke-warm state I was in. 
conclusion:  sometimes God wants to move you to a new place, sometimes God needs to change the way you think about Him, His church, and your place in it.
It's God's work, either way.  Yet our part is to pray.  Not being fed?  I go to God and talk to Him about it.  I am a spiritual child - how can I know what is best for me.  Thank God he is my Father who leads me and directs my paths.  Without the Holy Spirit, where would I be? 

It is questionable to me how churches can write and approve their bylaws in a fashion that prevents the church membership from some sort of check and balance.

In my church organization, though it is not easy, if the people decide they no longer approve of their leadership there are steps they can take to remove the leadership if that is truly their desire.

Still yet, I feel that if a person chooses to leave a congregation, they should do it in a fashion that does not start a rebellion.  I believe that sometimes God allows us to see things that bother us in order to get us to move.  After all, who would consider moving when things are perfect.

God desires, better yet commands, that we hold no offense period.  Not easy but when is obedience easy?

As far as me, I am not really fed on Sunday by the sermon...honestly.  Sunday I have multiple responsibilities that prevent me from being able to focus.  But I leave stuffed b/c I am fed by doing what I am called to do.  Jesus Himself said His food was to the will of God...the hope is that we get there too.

I am aware of staff pastors that hold resentment towards their senio pastor for not allowing them to "be fed" during the services but do not take advantage during the week to spend time with that senior pastor by spending personal time talking and praying or doing devotionals etc.  That is unfortunate b/c I don't feel in that case the senior pastor has done anything wrong.

I am also aware of senior pastors that just have no clue how to carry staff relations and allow their staff to be strangled by all of the mess that goes on.  That seems to be the norm unfortunately and that is too bad.

I have served under both.  I wear several hats and therefore find myself quickly up to my neck in obligations but I serve under a pastor who allows me to let stuff go and is supportive of that.  I think every pastor wants to see everything get done...it's a job qualification...but there is an art to understanding and supporting the lack of job completion.

Crystal, I hope you guys are healing.  God will reward your faithfulness and restore time lost.

There exists Synagogues of satan.  There exists Churches that are also the homes of satan.  Christ Jesus gives us the common sense to be separate and come out from among certain people/groups.  Use Spiritual discernment and common sense to leave Your Church...or not.

Outstanding comments, I'm so blessed by the responses! Actually, I believe every one who reads this will be blessed by your responses!! (Thank you!!)

Stevie Bee, you nailed it bro. Precisely where my mind was wandering with this blog. Debbie captured the exact same thought w/her response.

Patrick, thanks for all your insights bro. Will respond further tomorrow!

Pat Brey, amen - if the Lord is leading us, he won't lead us wrong! Although I always hate hearing about this church's shortcomings or that one's, I am heartened by positive explanations of the Lord's leading (even if it's to another church). If all of our reasons for church-switching are negative...hmmm, that just doesn't sound like the Lord's leading to me. What about US? Couldn't it be that the Lord is showing us the gap so we can step in and FILL it??

Bedtime has arrived.....will post more responses tomorrow! :-)

1.  Jesus says "I am the Good Shepherd".  Pastors are not 'Shepherds'. 

2.  Pastors may be considered as only sheep dogs, keeping the flock together for the " Great Shepherd"  Hebrews 13:20

3. Only the Good Shepherd cares for His Sheep, and even gives life for His Sheep.  Which pastor gives life for his sheep today?

4.  John 10:15 says that there will be 'One Flock and One Shepherd'  Meaning Jesus is the only Shepherd and all the true believers will be One Flock'  - This is universal.

5. It is the responsibility of the matured believers ( sheep dogs ) to take care and direct the other sheep towards where there is food (Bible).

This is me jumpimg up and down--running around the MyChurch sanctuary shouting AMEN!!!! Fifty billion stars to you Mike!

#1 reason why people switch churches--the music. The MUSIC??? That tells me that they are not connecting in the body. To me, the "not getting fed" excuse also implies that there is not a personal connection with teachers, pastors, elders--the people who sit on your row week after week. 

To me--the church is the place where we connect with other believers for encouragement, prayer, faith building, hugs...and inside the walls we "practice" Jesus so that when we exit, we know how to represent Him to a dying and thirsty world who may never enter a church setting.

In the church I'm at I was overwhelmed by the genuine LOVE that was extended to me and my family every time we went there--and even  when we didn't go.  That can only be Jesus with skin on--so when I found all these people acting like Jesus, I knew we were in the right place. I didn't even have to hear a sermon to know that the buffet table is overflowing.  

Ragland--you made me laugh! I am trying to imagine how many pastors would have signed up for the job if they knew they were only going to be the sheep dog. Way to put things in perspective my friend! 

Rag, great analogy! Great visual too! Sheepdogs, I love it! The biblical term "pastor" does seem to be indicative of the role of shepherd, though not the TOP dog (sheepdog, haha).

Stevie, more salient points about bad leadership, i.e. poor "pastoring". Obviously sin in the life of a pastor, elder, or even Sunday school teacher has the potential to destroy much good ministry. Pastors being the most visible church leaders have the greatest responsibility to be vigilant against sin in their own lives. Are pastors too powerful? Yes, SOME are, and this is to the detriment of the body of believers they serve (yes, they should regard themselves as servants). Of this I am certain.

Stu, I believe I'm responding to your comments as well when I address Stevie's comment. Thanks Stu!

Birdie, the music? Wow. And yes, I believe it. People switch churches often for even less reason. I like your list of purposes for visible church bodies (connecting, encouraging, etc.). I would probably add equipping (Patrick mentioned). We should be able to find mentorship within our church body (ideally). If we don't, should we leave? Well, maybe. There are valid reasons for leaving one church to go to another. But like bro Ken said, discernment is needed. Maybe we ourselves were led to our church to be someone else's mentor!

Juanita, I think that has revealed some error in the way former congregants came to your church.  To completely disengage your "body" like that....w/o warning, w/o goodbyes....very sad. What your church is going through might reveal who's disciples people really are (Paul? Apollos? or Jesus?)

Your experience really makes me think, too, Juanita. Our pastor is a charismatic leader (not in the charismatic gifts of the Spirit, but a leader everyone is drawn to powerfully). He isn't the perfect pastor, but he is a strong leader, a good speaker and worship leader. When (or if) he goes, I have no clue what our church will become. Ideally the congregation would replace him. But I don't think anyone at our church can even imagine a Calvary Community Church w/o Mark Scott. (He started the church, for goodness sakes!) One day we will be put to a real test, that is, if we are still at this church when the time comes that he leaves. 

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Mike,

You have received several responses to this blog, which I have decided to not read.  Why?  Reading the response of someone else may cause me to respond incorrectly and may change my original thought on how I should respond. 

I give you an A+  You have said exactly what I have been saying to many people for years and they still have not gotten it.  Jesus Christ simply said follow HIM.  Period!  When everyone decides to follow Jesus Christ and get their manna stright from heaven, they will realize they have been eating stale food. LOL

I Love You my brother in Christ.

Marcia...stale food, hahaha!  Yes, we need the "bread of life", manna from heaven, as Jesus personifies!! Though I do see the benefits of mentors and teachers, we must be careful not to become overly dependent on them, particularly not to the point of idolizing them!!

Hi Mike,

In the old testament, the word 'shepherd'  may refer to leaders/priests who led the people of Israel and they led them wrongly and God was furious. That is precisely the reason why Jesus came into the world and became a Shepherd to all of us. We have to follow Him, to follow Him, we need to know His voice from the word of God wihich is already in  our hands.  Each elder of the church should help the other to grow in spiritual maturity by directing to the word so that they get 'solid food' rather than always drink 'spiritual milk' as apostle Paul says.

My reaction when i first read this post was - well then why go to Church. If we can feed ourselves in the comfort of our own homes, why Church. I've been searching for a Church after several years of being away and i've been disappointed by what i found there - or didn't find, such as passion for the Lord and an enthusiasm for being there, lack of authentic community. i also noticed many members not faithful in attendance although i realize the irony since i spent many years away. While i may go to Church to worship, praise and thank the Lord for all that he's helped me through, after a while something has to keep you going back such as a connection to the people. i liked the Pastor and even know some of the people through my kid's school but was really disappointed about the lack of enthusiasm and community. So naturally i asked myself then Why go and is it important that i go at all if i steep myself in The Word at home? But through the responses to this post, many of you have told me - such as for the purpose of corporate worship and to serve others. And although i also teach my kids at home about the importance of salvation, etc. i think it's good for them to experience Church. We attended this Church for about 1.5 years but haven't been for the last 2 months trying to figure out whether to go back or try somewhere else. Don't you think community is important? Otherwise, you ask yourself why worship at this particular Church? i'd like to see any responses about this - maybe should have made this a new post, huh. Thank you for this post. God Bless!

Preston, I believe I would have done exactly as you did! Positive reason for change ...sounds perhaps like the leading of the Spirit.

Patty, welcome back!! Thanks for a charming post, too! You were apparently led by the Spirit to leave, again for positive reasons. Your ministry GREW as a direct result!!! Your good deeds will keep you well fed for a long time to come. :-)

world love, love to talk about community! One of my favorite subjects. I think I've written many blogs about community. This is one of the big reasons for church! And I am glad many of the important reasons for church attendance came out in these fantastic comments. (There is also of course the apparent command to "forsake not the assembly".) If we join an assembly to get fed, hopefully it is in the serving of others. We've found innumerable opportunities to serve, both inside our church and outside! Thanks for the insights!

Mike,

On the other hand, going to church out of duty to God or duty to others is kind of a lousy reason to go too.

As you know, I have some pretty exacting tastes for doctrine.  If the preacher's doctrine does not line up with what I know the be truth then I'm outta there.

I don't want to give support to something that I know is hindering the gospel.  Since Jesus saved me again, I have bounced from one congregation to another - even from one denomination to another.  About a year ago, I found a group of believers who are of "like precious faith".

There's no way a guy like me could be satisfied in a Catholic Church or Methodist Church.  These churches do not have the same respect for the scriptures that I have.  The church of Christ holds the scriptures in the highest regard yet most preachers are guessing about this thing.  It's not their fault.  Once upon a time, I didn't know what the bible was saying either.

In his series on building rapport, pop-psychologist Anthony Robbins said, "People who are like each other tend to like each other.  People who are NOT like each other tend not to like each other."  This is as true in the church as it is in the world.

Here's what I mean: I know a guy who is in charge of a local half-way house for alcoholics.  He used to attend a church of Christ in Northern Kentucky.  My wife and I bumped into him at a community church on the east side of Cincinnati.  We asked him what happened.

"I wasn't being fed at that church.  I needed a place to take my guys.", he said.

Alcoholics need more from the pulpit of God than the weak pablum that passes for preaching in the typical Sunday morning service.  Convicted sex offenders also need a fresh set of eyes on godliness.  People with addictive personalities can't make it on "duty to God" or whatever they drone on about in those churches.  We NEED salvation from our sins.  We're not like most people.

A person who has never been saved from "real sin" has no basis for establishing rapport with a person who has ruined people's lives.  Drug addiction, alcoholism, sex addiction, compulsive gambling, etc. is something that you can't just slip back into again - like lying, hating, and driving 60 in a 55 (or whatever). Furthermore, that little goody-two-shoes in the pulpit is in no position to guide such people into godliness.

Some people have simply "decided to follow Jesus", others have had their decision handed to them.  When I had destroyed my life and the lives of the people around me, the only one left standing was Jesus.  I was in such an emotional state that, to me, it was either Jesus or suicide.

Most people are not "converted" that way, however.  In fact, these two classes of people are almost incompatible because their conversions were SO different.  Their needs are very different as well.  The need not to drink again is VERY different from, "I need to walk in love" - but only in our minds, ya know?

We've all come from different places and to expect that one church is good enough for all is a little short-sighted.   I'm not saying that different people need different doctrine.  Please don't read THAT into my comments.  But welfare mothers don't fit in with suburban soccer moms.  Both can be saved but they talk differently about different stuff.

I'm a member of a predominantly African American congregation.  Sometimes I have to translate what's being said into white-guy language, ya know?  For example, "He go over there" is typical of an expression that might be used even from the pulpit.  But I am MUCH more comfortable in those surroundings than I was in the white suburban church because my current church seems to be a little more mindful of and a little more grateful for salvation.  Also, the preacher has a Master's Degree in psychology.  I totally respect that.

Rob

Glenn, I fully agree w/your comment. We do need to take responsibility, and yes, God may well lead us elsewhere. I believe it is far easier to see his leading when our reasons for moving are positive, rather than the negative ones we often hear. Thanks brother~

Thanks Rob & Bren! And Rob, interesting that you cite doctrine from the pulpit as a reason to leave a church using Paul's words to.....a pastor! :-D

Mike,

The word "pastor" appears exactly once in the New Testament.  It appears several times in the Old Testament - only in the book of Jeremiah.  Modern Christianity has assigned this word to the local preacher but the function is more akin to that of elder (bishop).

"Pastor" is another name for "shepherd".   The local elders are the shepherds of the flock.  Modern protestants call this "the board" or something similar.  The word "shepherd" and "bishop" are used interchangeably in the NT.

So a pastor is a shepherd and a shepherd is a bishop.  Was Paul a pastor?  Not according to the New Testament.

Paul was not married, therefore, he could not be a bishop of the church.  He excluded himself from the office of pastor.  No unmarried man is authorized to be bishop over the church of God.  (What does that say about the Catholic Church?)

Be that as it may...  I own a book called A Hunger for Healing.  I think that title best expresses what I took 100-words to write (above).  Brevity, unfortunately, is not my strong suit.

But reformed addicts have a hunger for healing that you don't find in the general population.  Most people can "get by" with their socially acceptable sins.  Sexual deviants and substance abusers are a bit more needy, I think.

According to Eerdmans commentary (2003 Eerdmans Publishing), P. Anton referred to the epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus as "pastorals" in 1726 because they direct Paul's associates, Timothy and Titus, to shepherd the churches being entrusted to them. In this sense, it is not a stretch to refer to Timothy as a "pastor".  :-) 

Also, a good point was made that we are most likely to like those we are most like (lol). This is reflective of one of the reasons I appreciate and remain at my own church. There is a pleasant and uncommon diversity in the attendance there. The body of Christ is a diverse crowd (moreso than many care to admit), and I believe diverse congregations better equip us to promote that diversity and unity than small homogenous congregations.

Ah...hello Jennifer! Elementary school compadre! Funny how the Holy Spirit works, isn't it?!

Church shopping is no fun at all. When we've switched churches, we either had one already targeted to switch to, or we were quick to accept what God seemed to be providing, w/o much "shopping" around.

We could easily go into shopping mode now. There are things that really bug me about our current church home. (previously wrote about that here... http://www.mychurch.org/blog/74347/Trapped-in-the-wrong-church )  But the bottom line is, God has given us ministry opportunities where we're at, and there has been no clear call to leave for other pastures. So we stay, for now.

Mike,

I hate to be like this but I'm going to have to have a scripture reference to Timothy or Titus being shepherds - specifically bishops of a congregation.  I looked up "shepherd" in multiple versions of the bible and the title is never tied to either Timothy or Titus.  Am I missing something?

It could be that Timothy and Titus are called pastoral epistles because they define the qualifications of pastors (bishops, elders, shepherds).  Besides, what we call these epistles is beyond the scope of scripture.  We call the book of Hebrews "Hebrews" but that's something we made up - not something that's in the scriptures.

The church of Christ is careful to call bible things by bible names.  It helps reduce the confusion.

Rob, we may be getting off the point here, but....tradition holds that "St Timothy" was the first bishop (elder, overseer) of the church in Ephesus, though there isn't a single verse explicitly stating that. But this shouldn't surprise us. The Bible isn't a history textbook, and therefore isn't written like one. But specific evidence for this tradition can be found if you look for it...in scripture or elsewhere. You can do that research, it'll be fun!

The way the epistles to Timothy are written, the addressee is clearly in a position of responsibility and authority in the church, i.e. an "overseer" (bishop, elder, pastor). So there is at least some validity in the irony I saw in your original comment, where you cited a verse that basically tells an overseer (leader, pastor) to turn away from bad leadership (pastoring). :-D

They themselves were people on the move (like the apostle Paul) and would have had a difficult time shepherding an individual congregation (I would think).

Female bishops (pastors) are not spoken about in the New Testament and would therefore, violate the "call bible things by bible names" standard.

A bishop must be a married man.  This would disqualify all the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church.  Forbidding to marry is evidence of apostasy (see 1 Tim. 4:1-3) - further evidence that the Catholic Church has lost her way.

Historically speaking, you can find evidence for anything you want.  There is nothing new under the sun.  If the scriptures are authoritative (and I think they are) then we should believe and observe what the scriptures say rather than whatever tradition we can find in history books.  As you know, scripture trumps tradition.

I'm not saying that a person who goes to a church where there are female pastors is necessarily going to hell.  But I know for sure that such church government is not of God otherwise there'd be evidence of it in the NT and there is not.  We can't have God's best if we're violating His word, can we?

Of all the commandments in the bible, church government is probably some of the easiest commandments to keep but mankind is not really interested in keeping the commandments of God - not even the segment of mankind that call themselves by His name.

Apostles and evangelists start churches.  Pastors are appointed by those "church starters" so that they can go start other churches.  We know that James, Peter, John and others settled down and became pastors of individual congregations (or perhaps several) but as far as we know, Paul "died with his boots on" (so to speak).  God's best plan for church government is detailed in the scriptures.  Any deviationfrom that invites trouble.

Or so it seems to me,

Rob

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This is just my small opinion.  People are people.  People will always complain and nag about the pastors, the singing, etc.  They will even complain about the food if you give it to them.

We have a huge reponsibility in our Spiritual lives, and we also need fellowship and a Pastor.  We need leadership.

I believe people are too busy being critical, and really busy searching for the "right Church"...  when they need to look inside of themselves and pray for answers.

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I have a friend who left our old church b/c of her young son.  Long story short, he no longer liked church b/c they wouldn't allow him to move up to the next class w/the other kids his age, and really it wasn't just, so she left with her son, and now he loves church and she loves it and is thriving as a believer. I am glad we left the church of 5 years b/c it IS better for my boy, but also better for me. I have felt so disconnected from it and the people since we got there in February, but I have been living so far out. At the end of this month, we will be back in the city living, and I am fully intent on getting involved as much as I am able w/ a toddler in the church and serve and fellowship.

Also, my spiritual walk was never really nurtured by preaching on Sundays, EVER.  When I was walking close to the Lord and being fed, it was in our alone time together.  So yeah, I amen this.

Gene, to "educate and motivate" are good purposes! And I'll bet that 10-min prayer time really is powerful. I could get into that. Great comment!

Lara, glad to hear that you're moving, that's been on my heart for a while. Also sounds like you and your friend had positive reasons for seeking a different fellowship...better provision for your children. You can tell someone's heart orientation towards a switch in churches when they respond with "I am leaving b/c the kids program stinks here" vs. "we are leaving b/c we've found a church with a wonderful kids program". The difference may seem semantic, but reveals MUCH about the heart. (IMHO)

Joey, your comment may be even more profound than you realize. We DO need leadership, and we DO all complain. Complainers can be found under the BEST leaders too!! God does occasionally put us under mediocre leaders for His purposes, and even under such we had better not complain. AND we can still be fed!! (As scripture seems to clearly show, and as a few have shown here w/there brilliant comments!)

Mike, You're hilarious! 

You wrote:

You can tell someone's heart orientation towards a switch in churches when they respond with "I am leaving b/c the kids program stinks here" vs. "we are leaving b/c we've found a church with a wonderful kids program". The difference may seem semantic, but reveals MUCH about the heart. (IMHO)

I'm more of a, "I'm leaving because the guy who runs the kid's program stinks and so does his momma!", kind of guy :-)  Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!  Just kidding :-)

Gene, it's great you get fed there, but what I'm saying is our walk with the Lord is a one on one thing, and shouldn't be dependent upon how good the preaching was at church on Sunday.

Mike, we left under really messy circumstances, actually. Been building up for a very long time, but it's done, and I know that breaking away from there was a wise thing.  If people aren't standing with you, they are standing against you, and that's no place to fellowship.

Lara (to Gene)...precisely the point of the blog. :-)  And sorry your leaving was so messy. If the Lord's purposes are our ambition, we will want to see ppl leave if we believe God's work for them is elsewhere.

GA, yer funny. (That aside was only to illustrate the diff. betw. positive reasoning vs. neg. Besides, a program is nothing more than an organized effort. According to scripture organization is wiser than disorganization. Even the early church organized. The prob. isn't the organization but the hearts of the participants.)

Mike,

Lara's right about conflicts among the members but you're talking about leaving on the basis of not being "fed", right?  That's a leadership issue, isn't it?

Truth is very narrow.  There is only one truth.  It certainly does matter what one believes.  Jesus said the the truth can make us free.  No truth.  No freedom.  A partial truth is not the truth.  A partial truth is a deception of the devil.

The Galatian church had the truth mixed with a lie and Paul said that the result was that they had "fallen from grace".  Most of the New Testament was written in order to counter some of the lies that had crept into the church.  Lies adulterate the truth.

Did Paul advise the Galatians to keep listening to false teaching?  God forbid!  Paul did not submit himself to false teaching even though that teaching came from another apostle.

Giving "subjection" to the lie of false teaching (in Paul's opinion) would have hindered the truth of the gospel. If someone in authority is teaching false doctrine and you do NOT try to put a stop to it then you are complicit in their heresy. Most people think that you're just trying to be a troublemaker or a complainer but I'm quite sure Peter had that same initial thought about Paul when Paul opposed him publicly and to his face.  Peter was smart enough to repent.

There are many false doctrines and only one correct one.  In the kingdom of God as in the natural world, there are many false answers and only one correct one.  There are an infinite number of incorrect ways to add up a column of numbers but only one correct way.  Believe it or not, this is NOT legalism.

The gospel is the truth and any variation of that truth is a lie.  If what you're being taught in the church does not line up with the truth of God's word then simply leaving that environment is not sufficient.  You need to confront the teacher face-to-face - publicly even - and let him know in no uncertain terms why what he is teaching is of the devil.

But that means that you have to know the truth for yourself.  If you don't then you have no basis for attacking anyone - let alone a brother in the Lord.  If the teacher you are rebuking comes back with a better theology than yours then you owe it to yourself to repent - apologize even.  The door swings both ways.

This sounds like a harsh way to live but we have to understand that to allow someone to believe a lie is not a loving thing to do.  All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness.  If you are not using the scriptures to instruct, reprove, and correct then you are not using them profitably.

Indeed Crystal, God still moves, even if the pastor isn't there, or even if the pastor's sermons aren't lighting up the sky. I've actually thought about whether or not I would remain in our present church if our senior pastor resigned. If I were to be true to what I've written in this blog, I probably would! The rest of your comment....well, it's sad. And that might also come down to leadership issues. 

To address the issue of listening to false teaching, lies, and false doctrines... If there are outright falsehoods being spread from the pulpit, that is grounds for serious corrective action. So of course I agree! But the subject of this blog was different, more along the lines of the "sheep" simply not feeling satisfied with the spiritual food offered each Sunday. Are we making excuses simply so we can change our scenery, and making the pastor a scapegoat for our discontentment? Are we looking in the wrong place for our spiritual nourishment? 

Gene,

The topic of the blog is "I'm just not getting fed here".  Mike's not talking about fried chicken, he's talking about the attitudes regarding the quality of the word.  The preacher is the one delivering the most words on Sunday morning.

It's easy to worship God.  There's no real challenge in that.  Heck, you could worship a Dunkin Donut and get a good feeling from it.  You don't even have to be Christian to worship God.  Worshiping something you call God and Jesus is not the point.  My mother worshiped God and Jesus... and Mary, St. Anthony, Bishop Sheen, etc., etc, etc.  She also told us kids that if we pray on the toilet our prayers would go straight to hell.

Although devout, my mother and grandmother had some wacky / whacked out beliefs.  My grandmother - a devout Catholic - believed that if she didn't dispose of her cut hair and clipped fingernails by burning them that she would have to wander the earth after her death collecting those items before she could go to heaven.  

They loved God.  They prayed all the time.  They went to mass religiously.  But the quality of the word they were receiving didn't gird them against believing doctrines of the weirdest kind.

I should note that their strange beliefs were never the formal doctrine of the Catholic Church (or any other church that I know of).  My point is that, although they worshiped God and went to mass and partook of the sacraments, they had no concept of who God was or what He wanted.  To me, that's very sad.

My siblings are smart enough to know that the junk my parents believed was just stupid superstition but, as Catholics, the quality of word that they are being fed is no better than the quality our parents and grandparents received.  They may love God but they know precious little about Him.

..."going to church on Sunday isn't about the preacher."

Amen Gene. That is at least partially what I'm getting at. Folks expecting to get the bulk of their spiritual nourishment from the preacher on Sunday, then being disappointed are, in my view, quite possibly attempting to get their nourishment from the wrong source. At least that is what the blog is suggesting. Their disappointment could be due to dissatisfaction with his delivery, or the amount of "meat" in his sermons, or yes, even perceptions of the quality of that "meat"/word as was pointed out. :-)

In thinking about this some more, "Not getting fed" presents an opportunity to do something about it.  Maybe what people experience in "not getting fed" helps them understand what's missing in their lives, so it gives them focus.  With that focus, they get the drive to go forth and to volunteer to teach a class (with the requisite learning and support), or to start a ministry, or whatever as they feel led by the Holy Spirit.

Not getting fed definitely presents an opportunity, perhaps even a calling Gene. Very good point.

Todd, I always appreciate your informed/scriptural perspective! That said, apparently we diverge somewhat on the extent of the pastor's/teacher's responsibility (or really, the degree to which the sheep/congregation should rely on the pastor/teacher for spiritual nourishment).

From own experience...  I used to sit under amazing teaching from the pulpit every Sunday. We had two pastors w/DD in front of their names and strong teaching credentials. They could preach so well!! Yet my personal spiritual growth was slow, almost stagnant. Now, I sit under a pastor who is a good speaker but not such a strong teacher, with no teaching credentials or training. His sermons are usually light on the "meat". But I'm growing spiritually more now than ever before!

To what do I attribute my growth??? When I had great teaching pastors I was inconsistent at feeding myself, whereas now I am feeding myself daily, constantly. THIS is the real source of my spiritual growth, and I can't help but feel that others will experience similar results, if they would grab their bibles, maybe a few other resources as well, and dig in, start feeding themselves! The quality of teaching from the pulpit can certainly be helpful, but I don't think it should ever be a scapegoat for spiritual inertia!

I'm thinking of a friend who recently left our church. Most of his complaints were with our pastor. "Just not getting fed, Mike," he said. I asked him how his devotional times w/the Lord were, and found that he spent 5 min./day if anything. Hmm, and he expects to do better at another church???

Please don't think I'm saying pastors are irrelevant when it comes to our growth, lol!! Great pastors are great leaders, motivating, encouraging, pointing and steering their flock to the feeding trough (Christ). And yes, teaching too! I just think we have unrealistic expectations of our pastors too often. It's easy to blame them when we feel dry, stagnant, lost and disoriented. In this age of bookstores and internet (and internet bookstores LOL), bible study resources are plentiful. Heck we could give ourselves the kind of education MOST pastors 100 yrs ago didn't even have! We just need to get off our duffs and dig in! Feed ourselves!

(After all, we don't ALL have a Pastor Todd that we can rely on for everything, as much as we wish we did! lol)

Agreed Todd. What you're saying now reminds me of the Situational Leadership model, where leaders use a combination of supportive/directive behaviors to lead others. Mature believers find themselves at a stage where they require less directing and coaching, and benefit more from supporting and delegating. :-D

Crystal,

So it's not a matter of "not getting fed"; it's a matter of getting fed a pile of garbage.  I know what you mean by that.

I also have a bit of a scriptural problem with female pastors / preachers.  A scriptural pastor is the husband of one wife.  Your pastor was not married and therefore she was not a husband.  Of course, in her case, marriage wouldn't solve the other scriptural issue.  She can never be a husband (without an operation).

Rob

Crystal,

The closer a person is to God the more they exhibit the qualities of His design.

Her desire should be for her husband (boyfriend).  It's how she's made.

This is actually a good argument for:

There has been a lot of abuse in the name of the above verses but the concept is there.  This is a hard passage to regulate.  Are there exceptions?  I think so.  But the idea is that a woman's role is not as a teacher of men if there is a man qualified to teach. How else can one interpret that?

From what you say, it sounds like she sold her soul for her man, though.  That's interesting because that's usually the man's role.  Eve must have been something for Adam to have traded Paradise for her.  We all sell our souls for a mate a little.

Rob, My first pastor passed away, his wife was ordained, therefor she stepped into his position because at the time, there was noone else. My husband preached for her and done childrens church and prison and nursing home ministries, However, he wasn't leagally ordained, which I laugh about{another blog}
Not to long after he was ordained the church way.....haha, is when all this took place. I myself don't have a problem with a woman pastor, as long as she is leading me to Christ.
And I agree with the way a person should leave. Make sure your reason is not selfish, or childish, Make sure its God telling you and not you, then leave. Don't try and take the whole church with you, if something is wrong and they hear from God, they'll handel it on their own.
Yet I do feel it is the responsibility of the one you call your pastor to feed you on your day of worship and its our own responsibility during the week. Sadly my pastor was getting paid wheather she was there or not.

Voice, you said, "going to church" is all about corporate worship. "Being fed" is an individual responsibility. "Being discipled" is something the church should be doing, but not on Sunday morning. This is a perspective I share! As for being discipled, the best way for this to happen surely must be one on one or in very small groups. No way can a pastor disciple an entire congregation. So many different maturity levels, backgrounds, issues, etc. I think this might be where the dissatisfied get confused. They confuse discipleship with the basic spiritual staples we need for daily growth! (Discipleship is a bit more intensive, growing us faster and farther than we could on our own....kind of like a special shot of vitamins and nutrients!)

How a person should leave a church IS a good topic for discussion. I was just having lunch w/our pastor yesterday, and remarked that in 20 years Laura and I have been "members" of 3 churches, leaving only one of them w/o physically moving away. This was for a) safety of our toddler, and b) to go to my parents' church, i.e. POSITIVE reasons. We believe the Holy Spirit led us to go, though in retrospect we didn't do it in the best way (didn't say goodbye to most of the folks we knew there). Oh well, we were young and immature in our faith at the time.

Crystal, "children's church and prison" sound's pretty bad....I didn't care for it myself when I was a kid, but I don't think it was that bad! (lol, jus' kidding!)