Kathy
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Why Biblical Guidance Doesn't Work
||August 09, 2007|6653 reads
 

To add a comment to "Why Biblical Guidance Doesn't Work"
Sword_in_DC
August 09, 2007
Once again, an excellent post and pause for thought, Kathy!

I sincerely appreciate the wisdom you share - you speak as one who has 'been there' and walked what you write.

Two thoughts: 
1. Thank you so much for the balance given by posting this:
Note:  There is certainly a time when it is appropriate to call another's attention to his sin.  I believe, however, that 99 times out of 100 when Christians exercise this response, it is not the right time.  And without genuine love behind it, it is never the right time!
...and I fully understand, in context, why you put it in small letters.
2. One of my favorite scriptures is Micah 6:8
6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Note that we are required to DO justly (our action), but love MERCY (how we treat others).  Others can correct me if I am way off base here, but other passgaes (like "I will have mercy and not sacrifice") tend to make me think that God prizes mercy, even above His own law.
Suzanne Taylor
August 09, 2007
Great blog, Kathy!  You have articulated your point beautifully.  I am saving a copy of this one.  Every once in awhile someone starts ragging on the pharisees in Sunday school and I get this urge to overturn a few tables.  In the past I have done my best to point out how we behave much like the pharisees, so we have very little room to be judgemental about them (which mostly brings heavy sighs and eye rolls in my direction).  I appreciate how clear and specific the point was made here.  We have a great deal to learn from the pharisees; being dismissive of them keeps us from growing in our understanding of how Christ calls us to live out our faith. 
Mike McCorquodale
August 09, 2007
Kathy, This is a Outstanding blog. The first fruit of The Spirit is Love.  Many people know the Bible but have a problem with love.
Mike n Laura
August 09, 2007

Good word Kathy. Interesting to learn that the Pharisees were martyred for their faith. They definitely had zeal for God then, didn't they? Scary to think that I could be just like them.

As far as confronting others about their sin, I think most of us go to both extremes, but rarely get it just right. We either hit them hard with scriptural admonitions, playing into the Christian stereotypes, OR we ignore, rationalize, or otherwise downplay our brothers'/sisters' sin, leaving it totally unconfronted, b/c we are afraid of confrontation. (I believe the latter occurs far more frequently than the former.) I agree that the best approach is taken in love, and perhaps is relational as well. I much prefer modelling the appropriate lifestyle to advocating it verbally.

As far as counselling depressed persons, man that is hard! You make some good points about this too. I think most of us have been there, but perhaps we're so glad to be the counselor rather than the one counselled that we forget how it feels and approach it all wrong. Of course, the worst thing to say just might be "Just give it to the Lord". That line was used once to terrible effect on a family member of mine who had been in professional counselling for years for depression issues. For goodness sakes, we've got to be careful!

Thanks for another great one!
~mike

Jess Stuart
August 09, 2007

I love this post.  In Romans it says to weep with those who weep (12:15).  In Galations it says to restore a sinner gently.  Jesus never told anyone to "read your Bible and pray."  I kind of wish preaching would change a person, though: I preach at myself all the time.

I think the Pharisees forgot about this principle: To get God's results, you have to rely on God's involvement.

I love the serenity prayer, it has a lot to say about a good attitude towards others and myself:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to thange the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time.
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it.
Accepting that He will make all things good if I surrender to His will.
That I may be reasonably happy in this life, and supremely happy with Him forever in the next.

Amen

 

Carol Suh
August 09, 2007
Wow.. really well written Kathy.  Great admonishment! :)
Kathy
August 09, 2007
Thank you, Sword!  That verse adds a lot, and your wisdom is so appreciated!

Amen, Soozanne!  The Pharisees probably rolled their eyes too!   :)

Thank you Mike #1.  Love is so hard for us to learn, because we can't memorize it or recite it!

Mike #2, you said:
  the worst thing to say just might be "Just give it to the Lord."  Amen!  Not because it's bad advice, but because it comes out as just words, not as love or understanding.  Excellent advice to give ourselves but not to give others!  Thank you for adding this!

Thank you, Jess!  I love this:  I think the Pharisees forgot about this principle: To get God's results, you have to rely on God's involvement.  Excellent point!  And I love the serenity prayer too!

Thanks, Carol!  Love to you!
Randy Lloyd
August 09, 2007
I'll echo Carol's comment Kathy.  Very well done!
Deb Rockwell
August 09, 2007
Great post Kathy.  Speaking as a person who has been depressed, no matter what a well meaning person might say, a depressed person is not thinking clearly.  They don't want to be told what they should be doing...they just want a sympathetic ear.  Sometimes the best thing we can do as a christian is to shut up and listen.  Knowing when to speak and when not to speak comes with experience.
RuthAnn Wilson
August 09, 2007
Excellent blog.  and the original inspiration "Pharisees Ancient and Modern"  also inspired another blogger friend elsewhere!  Great Minds?! 
Jess Stuart
August 09, 2007

I think this principle is a good application of this verse:

Rom 12:18   If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

It's amazing how much more God was able to use me in the live's of others when I realized I should only change myself.
ali
August 09, 2007
awesome, awesome, awesome!!
Kathy
August 09, 2007
Deb, thank you for sharing your insight!  I agree with you completely.  And knowing when to speak comes more naturally when we first have real love for the hurting person.  Blessings to you!

Bestemor, it was through her blog that I found the article!   :)

Jess, I love this:
  It's amazing how much more God was able to use me in the live's of others when I realized I should only change myself.   Oh, if we could all learn that lesson!

Randy and Ali, thank you for being such encouragers!
Kathy
August 09, 2007
Shannon, I like the drug addict analogy.  I wish I had thought of it when I was writing!   :)   Thanks for sharing your story.

I am wondering now about my title choice.  I see how it can be misleading, and perhaps I should attempt to clarify here what I meant my Biblical Guidance.  This was not a reference to Biblical Counseling, and I am an advocate for counseling/therapy, Biblical or not, for anyone who needs it.  Life can throw all kinds of curves, and sometimes a listener/counselor can help us to get through difficult times.  It grieves me to hear Christians condemning other Christians who choose to get this kind of help.  Holy Spirit, yes, but there is no either/or here.  If you can be best helped by both, then don't hesitate.  God can work through therapists who are trained to help us, just as He can work through medical doctors.

What I meant here by Biblical Guidance, however, was much more general.  I meant the guidance we get from the Bible for how to live our lives.  Sorry if I caused confusion with the title.  I'll keep my ears open to hear if I need to change it!
 
Patrick Synnott
August 09, 2007
Another great post Kathy. Keep em coming
Dennis Howe
August 09, 2007

Ok,
I was trying to think what I could say that was insightful and, well ok , self-aggrandising . Then I thought a little bit more about what you said...and well.....thank you!

Yenan Silen
August 09, 2007
Today I feel down and I do not care what you say to me to cheer me up, I need to process my emotions. However, if you just listen to me and cry with me as our lovely Apostle Paul stated cry with does who cry and laugh with does who laugh.

I praise God for what he is doing, I hope i will see it manifested. God is kicking human doctrine out!!! 

Thank you Kathy, you are a Daughter of God and a beautiful sister to me!!!
Kathy
August 09, 2007

Thank you, Patrick!

Dennis, lol - love you, brother!

Mujer, ¡gracias mi hermana!  Si necesitas escuchadora, escríbeme, y yo escucharé y oraré.  ¡Dios te bendiga!

Voice in DC
August 09, 2007
Kathy, I have had an incredibly busy couple of days and saved your post until I had time to soak it in.  As you know, I look forward to your writings. They always, always give me reason to pause, think, check the scripture, and think some more.

I would say that right here, my friend, you have described very well the parable of the sheep and the goats....we did all these things...I did not know you...Selah.
Carol Suh
August 09, 2007
Wowzers.. 20 stars in less than 12 hours?  This post might be a record-breaker!
sara burnette
August 09, 2007
Kathy, as usual another awesome blog.Do I love them enough to spend time with them, etc. really got me doing some soul searching.Thanks.
Kathy
August 09, 2007
Thank you, Voice and Racunpoodle!  And Carol, TGBTG! 
Jess Stuart
August 10, 2007

Had another thought on all this from Romans 13:8:

Rom 13:8 (NASB) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

How often have I acted like I owed nothing buy my advice?

Another thought: did you know recovery groups like Alcoholics Anonymous ban giving advice?  People in recovery groups are there to support each other as each person works on themselves by God's direction.

Oscar West
August 10, 2007
Great job, Kathy...God bless
Kathy
August 10, 2007
Jess, another excellent point!  I needed your help writing this blog!  And I was not aware that AA bans giving advice.  I attended a couple of meetings as a part of my counseling classes, and that certainly fits into what I observed.  There's some wisdom in that rule!  

Thank you Oscar!  God bless you too!
dave buckingham
August 10, 2007
Great post.  I know it's difficult but sometimes we just need to take some time out for a brother or sister in need just because.  It's really hard not to get tied down to are plans.
Jess Stuart
August 10, 2007

I had a good little saying come to mind, so it might be from God.

When I tried to change others, I couldn't give "good advice".
When God and I started changing myself, I didn't need any.
Lora
August 10, 2007
Great blog, Kathy!  Thanks for being honest and adding the note at the very end.  There is indeed times when it is not only appropriate, but commanded by God in the Bible (Eph. 5 and 1 Cor. 5) to call attention to another's sin. 
    I have seen first hand (not in my current church!) the myriad of problems, not to mention the hurt, caused when leaders in a church lead a very sinful lifestyle and it is covered up and ignored.  We are not to judge those outside the church, only those inside the church (1 Cor. 5:12), and of course this must be done carefully and according to God's instructions in His word.   We've got to be so careful that the inside of our "cup" looks like the outside. (Mat. 23:25-26).
Kathy
August 10, 2007
I agree, Dave.  If we really care about them, we will find some time.  It's all about priorities, isn't it?

Lora, I agree.  The issue of church leaders is really a separate one, perhaps for another blog!  (Any takers?)  I purposely minimized calling attention to others' sin, because we don't seem to need any help with that part!   :)    Thanks, Lora!

Thanks, Jess!
Debbye Hicks
August 10, 2007
My favorite verses are in 1 Corinthians 13...It keeps my in check, and helps me to express the love of God to all people!!

 

Sue
August 10, 2007

Right on Sister!

AndyM
August 10, 2007
Kathy,

I just got done with a 3 hour discussion on judging others that is the basis for our teaching this Sunday.  I wish I had read this during that time.  Hope you don't mind if I refer to this blog post during the teaching.  I think it's a wonderful way of bringing some of our points to focus.  Very well written and I thank you for sharing.

Andy
Bonnie
August 10, 2007
Thank you for the humbling advice.  God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason.  Someone once told me that if we listen more that we speak we might just hear what people are saying!  Sometimes we think that what we have to say is more important than the other person and end up interrupting them.  I'm ashamed to say that I've offered that useless advice before and have since learned that sometimes I just need to be quiet and just listen.  Most of the time my friends don't want my advice, they just want an ear/good listener.  Thank you for the reminder.  Bonnie
Kathy
August 11, 2007
Thanks, Sue!  Robin, Amen!  Debbye, that's one of my favorite chapters too!

Andy, I'm glad the blog can help!  I'll pray for the teaching!

Amen, Bonnie!  (See this blog:
I Can't Stop Talking Long Enough to Hear You)
dave buckingham
August 11, 2007
Awsome discussion I can't remember the exact reference but for somereason the parrable about the Pharasee and the tax collector at the altar
Jennifer Sanderson
August 13, 2007
I have just read through everyone's comments to this blog and they have been very helpful.  I was just reading on some these same subjects last night.  Such as Galations 5:6 and 1 cor. 13. 

I really loved jess an's serenity prayer and the comment about To get God's results, you have to rely on God's involvement.

I am having trouble in my marriage and God really spoke to me last night about the fact that I have to let go of all this and accept my responsibility and let God work the way He is going to.  I have tried everything else on my own and nothing has worked, surprise, surprise.  So, I am really going to try and give my marriage to God and see what He will do.
AndyM
August 13, 2007
Kathy,

Just so you know I used this in our teaching this Sunday morning.  It was very helpful in clarifying some of our concepts and gave people a common base to work off of.  One person listening online gave you some praise for the statement about using "cheer up".  She has dealt with depression for some time and was grateful to hear someone finally say what she has wanted to so many times.  Thanks for your words and heart!

Andy
john cummins
August 13, 2007

Hmmm, well once again it looks like I have some disagreements with this post. First, with the mentioned author's points:

I read an interesting article yesterday entitled Pharisees Ancient and Modern.  The author points out the following observations about the Pharisees:

They knew their Bibles.

(According to Jesus they did NOT know the scriptures...e.g., "ye error because you know not the scriptures..."


They were moral.

Again, not according to Jesus... he said they strained at gnats and swallowed camels, that they  ignored the weightier parts of the law, etc.

Many were martyred for their faith.

Really, can the author give one example? Curious!

 They attended church regularly.

(or the synagogue) 


They were evangelical/orthodox.

Were they orthodox? REally?


They were evangelistic. 

Again, really? Did they spread good news of salvation? Really?

 

Now, Kathy states the following: 

So why do the Pharisees get such a bad rap?  I submit 2 reasons:  1)  They were legalistic, holding the words of the law as their highest authority; 

I agree here they were legalistic but NOT because they took the words of the law as their highest authority but rather they took their own additions and interpretations of the law as the highest authority. And why call it a bad rap? They deserve the rap they got, do they not? 

2)  They used the Scripture to keep everyone else in line.

Again, no, they used faulty interpretation of scripture and legalism in the truest since to do it. The law and scripture ARE spiritual.  

Not to be cantankerous but I would say that, in fact, Biblical guidance is the only type of guidance that "works". 

Kathy
August 13, 2007
Hi jenmama4!  Welcome to MyChurch!  I am sorry to hear about what you are going through, and will say a prayer for you!  You will find comfort and a safe haven here.  May God guide you and give you peace!

Andy, thanks so much for the update!  I am so glad the blog was helpful!  God can use everything we have to give, as meager as it may be!  I really appreciate hearing how it went!

Recon, long time, no see, my friend!
Jennifer Sanderson
August 13, 2007

I am just wondering if everyone that is posting to this blog are from the same church and area or from different churches?  I, myself am from Becker, MN.  The church that I go to doesn't have anyone signed up yet.  My sister who lives in Omaha told me about this site, so I decided to check it out.

Kathy
August 13, 2007

jenmama4, I am in NC and have never physically met any of the other posters of this particular blog, although some have become good friends here on MyChurch!  They are from all across the U.S. from CA and OR to FL and VA and all in between, and 2 are even from outside the U.S.!  I'm glad your sister told you about MyChurch!  It's a great site for meeting and fellowshipping with Christian brothers and sisters from all over!  You can see where we are from, what we church we attend, etc. by clicking on our photos.  If you know of others in your church who enjoy the internet, invite them to join you here!  In March I was the first at my church to discover the site, and now there are 11.  We're glad you're here and look forward to getting to know you better! 

AndyM
August 13, 2007
Portland, TX, jen.  Down by Corpus Christi.  There's only one other person from my church on here and I've been here for a while.
Kaylen Jochimsen
August 14, 2007

I haven't added to this post yet, Hooray!


First of all, Kathy I love this post, and I agree with you! You've raised some really good points to think about.


Second, I'm from O'Fallon, MO next to St. Louis, but my church is full of people on mychurch, we have a ridiculous number of people on here compared to some!


3rd, jen, I am glad you gave your problems to god. It seems that a lot of people try to fix things on their own first, you're not alone in that! I personally have a problem of thinking that I can fix things on my own, and I only call god in once things are so bad that I can't handle it anymore.

Finally, I have a question for recon. I agree that the Pharisees seem hypocrical, but I think they tried to get others to join their faith. Otherwise, how would they have so many followers? And for the most part, it was my inpression that the Pharisees tried to follow the commandments and such. I agree that in their less than happy recieval of Jesus they probably missed a few things, but they didn't try to be immoral.

AndyM
August 14, 2007

What Recon is saying is actually correct, but only if you are looking at the issue from Christ's viewpoint.  I don't actually think that is what Kathy or the original writer of that piece was doing.  The different points listed are dead on when you consider how regular people view the religious life.  Some of them are just taken in a different context, such as the statement about being evangelistic.  This is not a statement about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ.  That would have been rather stupid considering the stance they took, wouldn't it?  The word evangelism is used in many different ways that don't have to do with a Christian sharing thier beliefs.  It has to do with reaching out and drawing in others.  From that viewpoint I would say that, yes, they were evangelistic. 

The gist of what is being said is that the commitment that the pharisees had to their religious beliefs was as tangible as the commitment we often have to the very church structure and culture that we live in today.  The truth in Recon's words is that the scripture IS the best sounding board for guidance.  The problem that we have is that alot of times we don't read scripture correctly or we read into it what we want to.  At that point the words become useless.  This is what the pharisees were doing.  Yes they were using scripture to judge others.  They were also using faulty scripture.  Both Kathy and Recon are actually in agreement on this point.  I do side with Kathy on this one, though.  You must read it honestly and apply to your own heart way before you can do it with anyone else.

Valerie Clark
August 14, 2007

Kathy,

I have all along thought God sent you to me...and now I am SURE of it!!!  I am in tears reading this blog! 

As someone who has been in a deep depression for months, I have been told by many well-meaning people "You're letting Satan Win", "Give it to God", "Think of all the good in your life", "Think about all the people who have it worse", "I've had bad things happen too, and you just have to move on"...I could go on and on...

Maybe an even worse reply, is no reply at all.  It's not easy for a depressed person to reach out.  By the time they do, it is usually out of absolute fear of what will happen if they don't.  Being depressed, whether caused by an event or situation, or caused by nothing in particular, is an incredibly lonely feeling.

I believe people mean well, and really do care, and only do or say what they know... and maybe those comments actually do help some.  I can only speak for myself when I say, comments like those make me feel even more depressed and more alone, and cause me to isolate myself even more, in order to protect myself from more pain.  When I finally reach out to someone and share my true feelings, it's an incredibly vulnerable feeling, and when you get a harsh reply, or no reply at all, it just validates your depressed thoughts and feelings, no matter how irrational.  I need someone to listen and say they're sorry that I'm feeling so bad.  I need someone to spend time with me, or even just check on me from time to time.  I already know all the "truths" and already feel guilty that I can't just "get over it"...I just need to feel like someone cares, and that I'm not alone.

I'm so thankful for the few who have come to my home and sat with me while I shook in fear, and cried.  I'm thankful for the cards, or e-mails, anything to show me that I'm not forgotten.  I'm thankful for the listening ears at church, even when all I can do is cry.  I'm thankful for the hug and whisper in my ear from people at church that I don't even know very well.  I'm thankful for the comments left here on MyChurch. 

I've shared this with hope that it may better equip someone the next time they are faced with someone who is depressed.  I, too, have said all the wrong things to someone, with the very best intentions.  I thought I was saying what God wanted me to say...I truly cared for, and loved this person, this close family member.  He eventually made several suicide attempts, coming very close to succeeding.  It wasn't because of me, or what I said, or didn't say, I know that.  But I learned from that experience that he just needed to feel loved, and needed to be heard, and needed to know that someone, anyone, cared what happened to him.

Jess Stuart
August 14, 2007

Howdy All,

I'm typing from sunny Beaverton Oregon.

Voice in DC
August 14, 2007
Val, it is so hard for people to know what to say...and we often don't say enough. I know, for myself, I don't walk in relationship with many people, so when I need someone, nobody really knows what I need. That is me and it is very typical of us men in this day and age. Like you said, though, sometimes all it takes is a touch of a hand, a smile, a little note, just something to remember that we are not alone. Words don't cut it, but actions do. Still praying for Jake and all those who are giving care...
Kaylen Jochimsen
August 14, 2007
 I need someone to listen and say they're sorry that I'm feeling so bad.  I need someone to spend time with me, or even just check on me from time to time.  I already know all the "truths" and already feel guilty that I can't just "get over it"...I just need to feel like someone cares, and that I'm not alone.

Val, I completely agree with you. When you're feeling bad, you just need someone to hold you and listen.

And I'm not saying biblical guidance is all bad. I just think that when someone sins, you shouldn't throw that in their face. It will only make them angry or more upset. I think the best time for biblical guidance is when someone asks your advice on something. If a person comes to you, asking for advice on how to get out of an already sinful problem, that is the best time to offer biblical advice. Don't reprimand them and tell them just how much they've sinned! They already know that, you guilting them won't help! Just try to help them move forward. That's what I'd want someone to do for me.
Kathy
August 14, 2007

Thank you, Kaylen and Andy!  I appreciate your comments so much!  You both grasped the spirit of the blog!

Joel, I agree with your look at the other side of the coin, and did acknowledge it at the end of the blog.  I did not give it equal weight, as the purpose of this blog was to help us see the one side that, in my opinion, we are more likely to miss.  Your point, however, is well taken, and I have added the word merely to the sentence you mentioned.  I always appreciate your challenges to hone my thoughts!

Val, you can't know how happy I was to see your post this morning!  I have missed you so much!  Thank you for courageously sharing your story for the many of us who love you and for those who may not even know you but are in a season of struggle and just needed your honesty.  Love to you, my sister, and continued prayers foryou and all your family!
    

Paul Yanchek
August 14, 2007
Thank you for your well thought-out blog.  I do agree with Recon - there are a few things we do need to be cautious of.  If the Pharisees really knew the Scriptures, they would have believed that Jesus was the Messiah.  In Mark 7:8, Jesus scolded the Pharisees for setting aside the commands of God (the Scriputres) and holding to their own traditions. 

They were legalistic, not because they tried to be fathful to the Scriptures, but because they thought you could only be saved by keeping the Law.  As Christians, we understand that salvation is not by works, but by grace through faith in Christ alone. 

I also get worried about comparing ourselves too closely with the Pharisees because of another big difference - the rejected Jesus as Savior. 

Yes, Jesus came down hard on them - because they had so much that seemed right, but they were actually leading people away from the truth of Christ and into eternal hell.

Whether in a lay capacity or now professionally for over a decade, I have "counseled" many people.  I hae seen my words have very minor effect on people, but I have seen the Word of God change lives.

I think what we often do is what I sometimes do with my computer.  If it doesn't do what I want - I blame the computer rather than the operator - me.  People abuse the Bible.  Bible do not understand the basic principles of hermeneutics.  People use the Bible to hurt and to judge.  People throw the Bible at others while failing to apply it to themselves.  The problem is us, it is not the Bible. 

3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


I appreciate your words, but maybe the title should reflect our wrong use of Scripture rather than suggest that holding fast to the Word somehow leads to problems.

Blessings to you Kathy!
SALLY  NORMANTON
August 15, 2007
This is fantastic! Its great to hear this from a women of God.  Love should conquer all and unfortunatly, sometimes this is not the case. If we all came together in Gods love, instead of being judgemental of what other peoples predicaments are, we could stand together and do mighty things! God is Love. We should love each other and do as Jesus would do.
Bill
August 15, 2007
True Biblical Guidance works perfectly!

Yes the pharisees were religious, but they were no more devoted to their religion than terrorist or some Church goers today. Being devoted to something doesn't mean that you are right.

The Pharisees, did not really believe the Bible. Some Christians today are just religious. You have met some. Go to church each week. Give plenty money and think all is well, but they only have a form of Godliness and deny the power of it.

They cannot get along with others, nor can they counsel anyone. They don't understand.

Any Christian renewed in knowledge and is not a novice will be better  helping people to overcome problem than any secular psychologist. Why? Because psychologists have a methodology, but no answers. The are a sounding board to help you find your own way. That is no better than any person acting as a sounding board and being a friend.

God on the other hand has answers. Anyone, truly renewed in the knowledge of God is able to direct people to true answers. If they cannot, then they are just religious and need to get to know God thenselves.

What is happiness? Can Science tell us? Are there any examples of complete happiness in history? Is complete happiness just bliss without sorry at all? http://happinesssecrets.blogspot.com/

Bill

john cummins
August 15, 2007

Spooksam,

 I think Pharisees actually use scripture in a way that tries to find loopholes around the law. Again, the NT says the law is spiritual. Should we willingly sin, become loose and avoid the law? God forbid!

I think I stated succinctly above my qualms with this post. Mainly, I posit that Biblical guidance is the ONLY real guidance that works and I'll stick to that, thankyou. 

john cummins
August 15, 2007

Spooksam,

Another thing in your post that I agree with is that the comparison between us and the Pharisees should not be too closely drawn. The fact is, a Christian has a new heart, a heart of flesh and in fact the old man (old nature) is dead. Too many groups keep dredging up the dead man that has been, in fact, buried with Christ.

We must accept what the scripture says about our new creation and move on. Now, the truth is we still battle with the flesh until we have  glorified bodies and with the devil and the world BUT unlike the Pharisees we have a new heart at our core, have a new nature, in reality AND are definitively different from Pharisees, period. 

john cummins
August 15, 2007

Sorry, for all the short posts.

I was reading even further Spooksam and you make my point even better that ONLY Biblical counsel "works". It is really only God's Word (mixed with faith) that avails anything and it will not return void unlike our own. It's not that it is mystical or magical but it certainly is a mystery!!

Too many of us skirt around the edges and try to say "nice" things to each other rather than confronting others in a Godly fashion as Paul did to Peter (in public). 

Jess Stuart
August 15, 2007

I don't have any problem admiting I've had Pharisaical moments.  While I accept Jesus as my savior, I know there are moments where my actions and attitudes do not even acknowledge Him as God.  While I understand my salvation is through grace, there are many times where my actions and attitudes, exhibited toward myself and others, don't reflect my understanding.

The thing is, just because I have something to say, doesn't mean that I'm the one to say it, or that its the right time to say it.  I heard a phrase once: "Love can always wait to give, lust can't ever wait to take."  There are time when I've very selfishly given advice, because I had an attitude that I was important (or a deep seated motive to try to feel important).  God helped me realize that I wasn't helping other people out much, and that He could manage working in people just fine without my input.  I even came to realize that my input might interfere with God.  He needs them to listen to Him, not to me.

I think it interesting how much the idea that Kathy's point doens't reflect scripture in some way comes up.  I see the point she is making as very Godly and Biblical.  She's basically saying that there are Biblical and unbiblical ways of presenting Biblical advice, and that the way most Christians tend to do this isn't Biblical. 

Here are the verses God has used to help me have a more loving approach to when and how to give advice.


Romans 12:15  Amplified Bible

Rejoice with those who rejoice [sharing others' joy], and weep with those who weep [sharing others' grief].


Proverbs 15:2  Amplified Bible

The tongue of the wise utters knowledge rightly, but the mouth of the [self-confident] fool pours out folly.


Romans 13:8  Amplified Bible

Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].


1 Cornithians 13:4-8   Amplified Bible

4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end].

Glenn
August 15, 2007

Wow there is a lot to digest here.  It seems to me that the main point that needs to be heard again and again, is that of LOVE!  Yes we need to use scripture for doctine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, but if we don't approach our brother or sister in a humble loving manner, we will only drive them away.  Grace and mercy must guide us and the Spirit of God will provide the grace and mercy if we will but rely upon him. 

Kathy,
A great blog that has struck a chord with many of us here.  Thanks for taking the time to write and post it.
peace
glenn

Kathy
August 15, 2007
I think we dismiss the Pharisees too quickly.  They were the religious leaders of their time and culture.  And there was no one at the time that fully understood who Jesus was, even the twelve who were with him constantly.  "Who do people think I am?" Jesus asked his disciples.  "Some say John the Baptist, or Elijah, or one of the prophets," was their answer.  "And who do you say I am?" He asked them.  Peter spoke up with the shocking correct answer "You are the Christ" (the Messiah).  Jesus answered, "Shhh.  Don't tell this to anyone"  (Mark 8:27-30). This was the first time this had ever been spoken by a disciple, as far as we have record.  The townspeople were speculating about who Jesus was.  He was obviously someone special, probably a man of God, but any speculation that He was the Messiah would have likely been a conflicting speculation, because they were all watching for the Messiah, and Jesus definitely did not fit what they expected (probably a great military leader who would rise to be king . . .).  Because we get stuck on the words and often miss what's written between the lines, we might miss that, even after Peter's anouncement, the disciples show that they still really don't get it.  Not until years later when they could look back on it all and put it all together.  I say all this to make the point that not believing in the deity of Jesus, or even in His Messiahship (which were totally different concepts) was not what separated the Pharisees from Jesus' followers, because not even Jesus' followers had it all figured out at that point.  

Again I question my title choice, as it still seems to be misleading some.  I apologize for this.  I reiterate that my definition of Biblical Guidance here is a very general one, not related to psychology, or even to giving Biblical advice to others, but rather very simply the guidance we get from the Bible for living life.  With the point of the blog being that we would come much closer to living a Christ-like life if we applied the Bible's guidance to our own lives more than we did to others.

Bill, Recon, Spooksam, nice to hear from you!  Joel, Sally, Jess, Glenn, thank you!  Glenn, nice to meet you!  Bill, Sally welcome to MyChurch!  I look forward to getting to know you!
       
Paul Yanchek
August 16, 2007
In response to some of the responses to my response (??) - I think sometimes we make an assumption that we can either use the Bible or we can use love.  We are to speak the truth in love.  Using the Bible to help someone who is hurting or despressed doesn't mean we have to do so with a sense of anger.  When someone comes to me who is hurting, I have seen a greater impact by sharing Scriptures with them in love and praying with them rather than just giving them my two cents.  The Bible is useful for more than just doctrine - 2 Timothy 3:16 says it is trains us in righteousness.  It traines us how to live the Christian life. 

My wife has a master's degree in psychology but never went into the counseling field for this reason.  Looking at a hurting person for an hour and just nodding and asking, "So, how does that make you feel?"  ultimately leads them nowhere. 
Kathy
August 17, 2007

Spooksam, you said "I think sometimes we make an assumption that we can either use the Bible or we can use love."  Yes.  Why do we so enjoy dividing ourselves over every issue?  This issue should definitely not be an either/or choice!  Read and study the Bible with diligence, and live  a life of love.

"The Bible is useful for more than just doctrine - 2 Timothy 3:16 says it is trains us in righteousness.  It traines us how to live the Christian life."   That is exactly the point I was trying to make here, Spooksam!  That the Bible should be used to train us (me) in how to live, as opposed to using it first and aforemost to train everyone else! 

I appreciate your thoughts, Spooksam!  And Joel, I appreciate your encouragement!  Always Faithful!

 

Voice in DC
August 18, 2007
Kathy,

Reading through all of this again, one line in your original post stands out to me. I was just talking to Sword about how much I have come to dislike hearing people complain when the same people are unwilling to take action.

The line that jumps out to me is:  Do I love my brother enough to apply the Scripture to my own proper reaction to him.

It humbles me. How can I look out at the world, my brother or sister, and speak when I am unwilling to look inside and change myself?  This is really working on me right now. Selah.
Kathy
August 19, 2007

Voice, thank you for sharing this.  Many of my blogs are about issues that also convict me, or with which I have struggled at some time.  It's great when God can use your struggles to speak to me and vice versa!

Hi Carrie!  Welcome to MyChurch, and please join in all the blog conversations you want to!

Minoson
August 19, 2007
It may not be related to this post dirctly but this reminds me of the words my pastor once gave me.

"Do not try to help every person you meet. Let Holy Spirit and Scriptures planted in him/her work first." 
Kathy
August 20, 2007

A lot of truth there, Minoson!  Especially pertaining to dishing out advice.  Hurting people are not always looking for advice.  They are looking for presence.  And our misguided words may get in the way of what the Holy Spirit is showing them.  Thanks for posting!  Nice to meet you!

john cummins
August 20, 2007

Kathy,

    Your apology for poor title choice is accepted.
 

Mike n Laura
August 20, 2007
"With the point of the blog being that we would come much closer to living a Christ-like life if we applied the Bible's guidance to our own lives more than we did to others."

Kathy, as I've quietly followed this blog, I've had the thought you expressed here in mind. My approach tends to be to apply the Bible's guidance to my own life in order to show others how to apply it to theirs....at least this is what I set out to do, so long as my mouth doesn't get in the way!  I never thought you were downplaying the Bible itself as a source of wisdom or righteous counsel.
Jess Stuart
August 20, 2007

You know what Kathy?  If this blog had a different title, I'm not sure everyone who read it would have done so.

I knew what you meant, and I agree with it.  Looking back in my life, the people who modelled Godly behavior for me changed my life much more than anyone who gave advice.  In fact, in my life, I gave much more advice when I was less Godly.  I do my best to only give advice when asked.  I've noticed that even if I have relevant advice, the advice 'target' may not be ready to hear it.  In addition, my understanding of their situation depends on my interpretation of what they can communicate.  When I stopped giving advice, I had to humbly accept that the advice I had been giving probably wasn't helpful to begin with - it sure made me feel important to give it, though.

Kathy
August 20, 2007

Recon, thanks!   :)    And thank you, Mike and Jess!  Mike, I have gotten to know you well enough to see that you do indeed apply the Bible first to yourself!  It shows in your interactions!  You are a gentle and caring soul!  I think you're right, Jess, about the title.  I purposely chose it as an attention-getter, but I didn't foresee that some would equate the word guidance with guidance counseling.  I could've been clearer.  Thanks to you both for your votes of understanding what the blog was about!

Prudence Ramos
August 23, 2007
Thank you Kathy, I think of my friend Lori, I sure hope I haven't been a pharisee to her.
Prudence Ramos
August 23, 2007
Thank you Kathy.  I have truly learned something today.  God is so amazing when He teaches His children.
ndannison
August 23, 2007
Amen!  Wonderfully put.
Kathy
August 23, 2007
Prudy, Prue, and ndannison, thank you for your encouraging words, and welcome to MyChurch ndannison!
Sonny Thomas
August 24, 2007

Many fine points in the article, but it leaves much out as to what the Scriptures say in regards to what you term Biblical Guidance. In my mind, the title is misleading. Biblical guidance does work, but as you rightly point out, it must be done with a spirit of love and compassion. If it didn't work, we would have to ask God to recall Psalm 119:105, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Jude 22 says, "And of some having compassion, making a difference." We are called to guide spiritually for how shall they hear except they have a preacher (Rom. 10:14). It is our responsibility (Gal. 6:1-2).

But I would disagree with your accessment that a sinner would necessarily stop sinning if he saw his need and knew how (you also applied this principle to people suffering from depression). Hebrews 6:4-6 states, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." These individuals certainly would have seen their need and were able to grasp that the way was there to be saved, but nevertheless they still chose not to commit. John said the reason that people reject the light is because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. I can assure you that there are many today, and as also recorded in the Bible, that see their need and have grasped the knowledge that Christ is the way but yet continue in their sin. It simply is not as simple as you have written it out to be.

Kathy
August 24, 2007
Hi Pastor Sonny!  Welcome to MyChurch!  I especially love to see new  fellow North Carolininans!  Thank you for your dialogue here, and I hope to hear your thoughts on other blogs!  Your profile page is blank so far, so I know very little about you, but judging from your name, you must be in a pastoral position.  I would agree with you that a pastor, by nature of the position, has more of a responsibility to admonish with Scripture within his own flock.  As I wrote this blog, I really was thinking of us who are laity.  I appreciate your assessment of the blog title.  You are not alone!   :)    

I would not disagree with any of the major points you make, and I appreciate that you added them here for fullness of treating the subject.  My intent here was not to write an exhaustive exegesis on Biblical Guidance, but rather to call us to examine our own lives in light of the Scripture more than we use it to judge everyone else.  The Scripture you used, I believe actually strengthen this assertion:


Psalm 119:105, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Jude 22 says, "And of some having compassion, making a difference." 

It is my assertion here that if I allow the Scripture to be a light unto my path, and treat my brothers and sisters with love and compassion, the Holy Spirit can work in their lives through my example.  When those around me feel unjudged and unthreatened, and observe Christ in my life, they will come to me and ask for spiritual direction.  At that time, they are ready to hear it, and are much more likely to receive it.  As for Hebrews 6, I would argue that that passage deals with the much more serious matter of apostasy.  I would welcome your thoughts on that.

Thank you again for being a part of the dialogue here.  You will find that we have many interesting discussions here on MyChurch, and we enjoy growing from interacting with each other.  Nice to meet you!
john cummins
August 24, 2007

Jess,

    I think maybe that is one of Kathy's tricks. She picks provocative titles that lure us in and then she spends the rest of the time trying to explain something other than what the title meant.

Is that your trick, Kathy? LOL.

Kathy
August 24, 2007
Recon, I invite you to go to my profile page and browse the titles of my 33 posted blogs.  The only other one I can imagine you might be referring to is Women, Shut Up!, in which I respond to those whose theology says this.  I'm sure you know it is not my intent to mislead.  What would be your suggestion as a title for this blog?
john cummins
August 24, 2007

Hmmm, I'm not talking about misleading necessarily but luring in...but note the LOL. I would probably add the prayer in school blog...

 

Biblical Guidance (It works right everytime it is applied correctly!!).

Biblical Guidance Applied Properly!!

 

Mike n Laura
August 24, 2007

Kathy, if you really want to lure us in, you can do better. I'd try adding the word "haunted" to your title. It worked for me. (lol)  Of course I'm kidding, the owner of the armoir really believed it was haunted!

Kathy
August 24, 2007
If I could back up and name this blog for the first time, I'd probably search for an alternative word to "guidance," to avoid the "guidance counselor/psychologist" image it has given to some readers.  Otherwise, Recon, I do like your second title.  And Mike, I'm not sure how to work "haunted" in, but I agree:  It sounds like a sure lure!  How's this:   Haunted blog:  Biblical Guidance Applied Properly!!
Mike n Laura
August 24, 2007
lol!
Jerry Rogers
August 25, 2007

If Biblical guidance doesn't work then why do you quote the Bible. 

 Plus, how can you make a comment about a group of men you know nothing about.  You neither understand them nor understand Christ's dialogue with them.

Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.
Proverbs 19:27 Cease listening, my son, to discipline, And you will stray from the words of knowledge.

Your title appears to intentionally mislead.

Kathy
August 25, 2007
Hi Doc!  I see you are a newcomer to MyChurch!  Welcome, and thank you for being a part of my blog!  I believe you have misunderstood the spirit of this blog, and I hope you will reread it, along with the other comments, which include discussions about the title.  I welcome any thoughts you would like to share about the Pharisees.  And should you ever find yourself bored for a few hours, I invite you read all 34 of my blogs, after which I feel sure you will see that I hold the Bible in high esteem.  You might begin with this one:  Is Bible Reading a Chore?

I'm glad you have joined MyChurch, and I look forward to further dialogue with you in the blogs!  You will meet many great Christian brothers and sisters here!
Russ Holt
August 26, 2007
Awesome blog Kathy and one that we all need to hear.  The list of the Pharisees' behavior would give you the impression that they had their life in order.  Perhaps, that was the very thing that kept them from seeing that "our rightesousness is as filthy rags." (Is. 64:6 NIV).


Jesus has a very telling statement to the Pharisees in John 9:39,41 (NIV):

Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind ... If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Our goal should be to love people and to help them to take their next step spiritually -- whatever that may be.

Thanks for an insightful post.

Lita Anderson
August 26, 2007
Kathy,
You are right on the mark.  My family was ousted (asked not to come back) at a church because of Pharisees (the head pastor and kids director) without a sit-down discussion of what was wrong (our daughter being disrespectful) and how to fix it (don't have teachers allow her to roam during class).  We haven't been to church regularly for almost 4 years because of the shame that church continues to send our way.  We have tried to find another church but live in a small community.  So, we have been doing tapes from a Christ-centered church in Tennessee.  Our youngest daughter (11years) attends a youth group down the street at another church with a friend, but I really miss having a church "family".  God will continue to lead us and I believe restore us into full fellowship somewhere.  We may have to move from here before that happens though.  In Christ, LJ
Elizabeth
August 26, 2007
Great blog. You made an excellect point. Many christians are so concerned with the sins of others and having them recognize their sins, that we tend to forget and/or overlook our own flaws and sins. I agree that we need to use scripture to guide ourselves to live better than a tool to fix others.
Kathy
August 26, 2007
Thank you, Russ!  So nice to see you! 

Lita and Elizabeth, welcome to MyChurch!  Lita, I am so sorry to hear of your church situation.  I am praying for you and your family today, that God will lead you to the right church family, who will be a reflection of Jesus' love for you!  You can search for a list of churches in your area by clicking on Churches on the light blue bar on the top of any MyChurch page or by clicking
hereWe will celebrate with you when you find a loving church! 

Elizabeth, the Bible says there are none perfect, no not one, and unfortunately we don't have the option of going back and redoing our past choices.  We do, however, have the choice of what to do with our own lives beginning right now, and it's amazing what God can do with all the rest!  A prayer for you, my friend, as you look to God to guide your future, and may His voice drown out all those who want to throw stones! 

Love to you all!
Lisi and Bryan
August 27, 2007

There are some things to do when faced with a brother that is in sin, isn't there?   I can think of a few  but I'm not sure of the exact passages.  If I would be so bold, I wouldn't list "cheer up" as the first thing I would tell a sinner, or someone who is depressed.  Questioning a person's state is pretty typical here in Louisiana when you can tell something is wrong with a person.    I understand your point, and it is well taken but the title is a bit misleading.  Nevertheless I would not back down from dealing with a sinner according to the biblical mandates set forth by Christ examples and Paul's advice (or orders).  This is a beginning of a great article though.  It just needs to be combed out some more.....

 

Yours in Christ

Kathy
August 27, 2007
Hi Bryan!  Welcome to MyChurch!  I look forward to getting to know you!
Bryan
August 27, 2007
I hope I get to know you better also.  May the peace of the Lord be with you also....

Your brother in Christ
B
Jonathan Thomas
August 28, 2007

Kathy,

I cried when I read this blog. For many years I was overcome by a particular sin that was especially hurtful to me, something that generated a lot of shame and guilt, and condemnation. Many times I found myself crying out in prayer and sinning at the same moment, unable to change my circumstance. I tried reading the Bible more, praying more, even fasting. Nothing helped.

Then one day I told Vicki (my wife) about it. As it turned out, she was already well aware of the problem, but had simply given me some space and prayer. She shared with me that she too had experienced an ongoing battle with the same sin and the Lord made her free a long time ago, and he did it with His love and patience. And that is how Vicki and God set me free from that shameful and hurtful sin.

I've been free from that bondage for a while now, but your blog reminded me of where I would be today if it weren't for the love of God in Vicki's heart and soul toward me.

Thank you. 

Lance Claggett
August 28, 2007

Kathy,

I appreciated your blog... interesting and provocative. I'll add my voice to suggesting the title was perhaps a bit too provocative. But it did draw me in to read it! You invited someone in an earlier comment to suggest a better title. Perhaps "When Biblical Guidance Doesn't Work."

While I believe I understand and agree with the key point you're raising, I'd like to point out just a couple things...

First, you confused me a bit, for you started off addressing a situation in which one might be trying to minister to someone who is depressed, hurt, confused, etc., but then shifted later to dealing with someone you observe to be sinning. Certainly our approach - even with the Scriptures - will be somewhat different in each case, will it not? To "be Jesus with skin on" for the depressed brother/sister would mean just "being there," loving them, listening to them, hurting with them, pointing them to Christ and His hope, etc. All of that before we necessarily try to "counsel" them with God's Word. (How many times have we heard someone talking about Job and his friends and heard them say something to the effect of, "Job's friends were doing just fine... until they opened their mouths!")

When we become aware of someone's sin, however, the function of God's Word and of our counsel will necessarily change. I wholeheartedly agree with your primary injunction to us to be sure that we ourselves have first been transformed by God's Word and our lives are lived out and loved out in light of the Truth of the Scriptures. But in that very context is then where we go and in love confront one who is sinning. The Matthew 7 passage you cite is appropriate for your purpose, but Jesus goes on to tell us to first remove the log from our own eye, and then go and remove the speck from our brother's eye.

I hope I'm not protesting too much, for again, I know your concerns are warranted, and your exhortation is appropriate (to first apply Scripture to my own life and my response to others), but I do feel perhaps you've overstated your case. I agree with someone's earlier comment that just because someone recognizes their sin and knows how to stop, it doesn't mean they will. We dare not underestimate the strength and power of our sin nature!

Speaking the Truth in Love is where we each must walk as we relate to one another. Everyone will find their personal application of that perhaps to be a bit different. Truth without Love is dead orthodoxy and the kind of Pharisaism you're warning us against. But it is also true (and please understand I'm not suggesting you're advocating this!) that Love without Truth is insincerity and hypocrisy.

May God help us all to grow in the grace AND knowledge of Christ today.

Blessings! 

Jeannie
August 28, 2007
Actually, your title is wrong. Biblical counsel does help.
Because Biblically we are to "edify one another, in love".
It is Biblical to, "Love one another". It is "religious" to be like Jobs' 3 friends.
Don't down play the "Bible" or the written Word. It is more powerful than you might think.
The devil used the "Word" to tempt Jesus; but Jesus still answered with the Word.
In James it clearly outlines for us that our "faith" should be demonstrated by our "works".
I might add that it is the "works" of Love.
So call me a Pharisee if you will because I love the Word. But if it wasn't for the Word, I would not be here today. I am a saint who sometimes will sin...because of this old flesh; but I am a new creature in Christ Jesus. I was an old sinner who could not help but sin; but now I have the Holy Spirit who is ever present to help me overcome sin.
Even as a Christain I had struggled with sin because I was saved at an early age in life and things happen. But God delivered me and set me free.
One of the people here online was a friend of mine when I was going through a whole lot of BAD stuff. They were young at the time, as so was I; however, they spoke the truth to me in love. No it wasn't always scripture; but it was scriptual, it was Biblical. It wasn't religion, it was relationship. It was love. I do say, the Biblical love changes people...it's God's love.  
Remone Durham
August 28, 2007
     I must admit I'm more than taken aback by the ground swelling of support that suggests that the Bible or biblical principles as it were, does'nt work when used in application towards ones trials/tribulations.     I've read such misquotes as "The Pharisees were tried for their faiths" and "Jesus didn't tell people to read their bibles and pray."  My question then is, what bible are these people reading?
     One of the problems with society today and the key reason why Biblical principles don't work, is because people by and large have no idea of hat biblical principles even are.  Let alone how to apply them.  people dont readtheir bibles or study the Word, they rely instead of second hand information from whatever source available, and take an opinion and run with it.  Most times to faulty information, warped ideology, and outright bad teachings to begin with.
     2 timothy 2:15 "Stdy to show thyself approved unto the Lord, a workman need not be ashamed; rightly dividing the word of truth".  Why study? 1. because God wants us to. 2. So that we may be able to decipher the truth from fiction, for as Paul told timothy, there will come a time when man does not want to hear sound doctrine.  Bt rather, that which sounds pleasing to the ears.
     Bottom line is, the pharisees were the religious folk of their day, true.  But the fault in the Pharisees lied in the FACT that they denied Christ as Lord.  Plain and simple.  The Pharisees were the one's who tried, crucified, and killed Christ for daring claim himself God.  The lesson to be learned from this is that we are saved by the grace of god and ONLY by the grace of God.  We do good works NOT to be saved, but we do good works BEcAUSE we are saved.
     You can go to church, donate money to charitees, so forth and so on, but if you don;t know Christ... "All pretty GOOD people going to hell."

Know your Word, it'll change not only YOUR life, but the lives of those around you.
Remone Durham
August 28, 2007
Kathy,
     let me add, I hope I didn't offend you by my previous comments, I was'nt taking issue with you personally, I think you have the right heart, just the wrong intrepretation of what the Pharisees represents in the lore of history and maybe discount the power of scripture, albeit inadvertently.


Be blessed.
Kathy
August 28, 2007

Jonathan, God bless you, my brother!  You and Vicki have been in my prayers!

Pastor Lance, thank you for a most intelligently thought out response!  I hope to hear more from you, that you may help to hone my thinking.  You make some very good points.

Jeanie and Minister D, thank you for sharing your thoughts, and welcome to MyChurch.  I invite you both to reread this post and to read through my other posts (just click on my picture), and hopefully you will find we are on the same team, and that we do not disagree as much as you perceive.  Blessing to you both, and I hope to see more of you!

Jess Stuart
August 28, 2007

Hey Kathy,

Don't worry, those of us who have read many of your blogs realize how Biblically based your opinions are.  It's funny how many people seem to react to something without checking to make sure they understand what people intend to say:

James 1:19 

19  This you know, my beloved brethren but everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak

Lance Claggett
August 28, 2007

Kathy,

I just wanted to also add an affirmation of you for how gracious you've been in all your replies to the various comments throughout this page. Your grace and patience have been the Christlike fruit of the Spirit coming through. I suspect you've perhaps been discouraged and frustrated (& surprised?) at how misunderstood your words have been.

I see (!) Jesus in you, sister! 

Kathy
August 28, 2007
Thank you, Pastor Lance!  Perhaps my words don't always make it intact from my heart and head to my blog!  I really appreciate your kind words!

Jess, a hug for you!   :)
Voice in DC
August 28, 2007
Kathy, you are salt in this world, and I thank Him for you.
Jeannie
August 29, 2007
Kathy,
You have enough blogs here to have a new book published. The title was provocative and that's good. I think we all love a good challenge, something to get our attention and think. I have enjoyed just about all the comments to this "story". May God continue to use you in your creative way of writing. And may God bless all those various ones who commented and expressed truths concerning, apparently what we all agree on - true Biblical counseling. 
Got to love it. LOL 
paul664
August 29, 2007
absolutely, we are to look at ourselves first, and as for the depressed person?  Show them how much you love them.  The sinner?  Same thing first, then, in that love, so them, with the sins of your own past, how wrong it is in the eyes of God.  So many of the youth I have worked with will listen to me, now that I have showed them how much they are loved first, then tell them of the sin, that breaks Gods heart.
Kathy
August 29, 2007
Thank you, Jeannie, for coming back!  And for your kind words!  Voice, the gratefulness is definitely mutual!  You are such a blessing! 

Paul, you said:  "So many of the youth I have worked with will listen to me, now that I have showed them how much they are loved first, then tell them of the sin, that breaks Gods heart."   IMHO, you have it exactly right!  Welcome to MyChurch, and God bless your ministry!
 
Helen
August 29, 2007

Hi Kathy, I agree with you.

Once we've found out what helps us, I think it can be ok to share "this helps me when I feel depressed" if we do it with kindness and gentleness, backing off if we're not being helpful.

That was why I wrote this ten years ago

For Christians in Pain: About God

 

 

Sokhang Pan
August 29, 2007
I've read through the blog and a few of the comments; there's not much else to say, but I hope you know that this blog has impacted me personally and will create subtle changes [to make a big difference] in the way I deal with people approaching me with their problems. I encourage you to keep writing blogs. This is really, really good material.

Thank you!
Kathy
August 29, 2007
Helen!  So good to see you!  Your blog is truly excellent!  I hope you'll consider posting it here so others can enjoy it!  I loved this Scripture reference, illustrating that we are brought to repentance through kindness!

2:4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

Kathy
August 29, 2007
Sokhang, so nice to meet you!  Thank you for reading my blog and for taking the time to share your kind words!  Welcome to MyChurch, and I hope to see more of you!
Helen
August 29, 2007

Kathy, hi, nice to see you too!

I always did like Romans 2:4 :)

The problem with posting it here is, first, I don't know how,  but, second, if I do people will respond to me as if I were a Christian now and that will be awkward.

You can post about it if you like...

Remone Durham
August 29, 2007
Kathy, thak you for the heartfelt welcome.  and believe me when I say I do believe that we are on the same team.  If you go back and reread my post you'll find that my comments are not an indictment of you personally or your approach to handling people/situations.  rather my comments addressed partiualr comments stated by various members of mychurch who replied to your thought provoking passage, as well as questions you yourself asked with regards to the pharisees.
     In response to JessIAM "It's funny how many people seem to react to something without checking to make sure they understand what people intend to say:It's funny how many people seem to react to something without checking to make sure they understand what people intend to say:"  People can ONLY respond to what is said, and not what the person INTENDED to say.  It behooves the speaker to then make certain that his/her point is aptly explained without the chance of it being misintrepreted erroneously, thereby having things said taken out of context.
     Matter of factly quoting from 2 Tim. again, "rightly dividing the Word of truth"  we are called as men and women of God to make certain we shared God's word correctly, that we may not lead in error, especially with regards to ones in search of truth.
     With regards to the passage represented here, which has been so compelling as to cause several to respond, two points of interest were actually raised. 1. How nbest to apply biblical principle when helping others deal with adversity, and 2. What about the Pharisees.
     A comment was made, that it could be counter productive to tell a sinner not to sin. One of the most often 'taken out of context' passages of scripture deal with Jesus' rebuking of the angry crowd that intended to stone the adulteress woman, and he told "he who was without sin to cast the first stone", as if to say that often times we find ourselves as the pot calling the kettle black, so back off.  yet the very key point that is left out of folks usag of that scripture is, in the same breath he goes on to say to the woman, "Now go, and sin no more".  So there is a precedent set, by Chimself, who is the teacher and example setter of how we should engage non believers ourselves.
     Lastly, regarding the question asked: Where the pharisees different from us?  The answer HAS to be "yes."  The Pharisees were not believers. They denied Christ. again it was asked: "what did the Pharisees lack?"  The appropriate answer is " Grace".  They may have had FAITH, albeit misplaced.  The bible tells us "or by GRACE, are we saved.  Through FAITH... in CHRIST".  That's what doomed the Pharisees.  That's why they get a bad rap.  Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the Life, no man goes to the father, but through me."  The Pharisees for all their religious zest, missed the mark.  Because they denied the Christ.  That was the intent of my original post.  Not about how we respond to those in need.  We each respond in our own way, to different results.  as long as christ is at the center of our approach whether it be, aggressive or tactful, is neither here nor there.
     But when dividing the Word of truth again, we must be careful to divide it correctly, as commanded by scripture.  And not be so quick to attack, those who would point out such discrepencies.  especially in light of the fact that we ARE, as BELIVERS in Christ, all on the same page.

Thanks again for the welcome.  I look forward to reading more of your 'insiping' body of work.

Minister Durham
Ariyo Adetimilehin
August 30, 2007
When i went through your thought, my heart pricks. Thank you for that awareness in the tis season
Kathy
August 30, 2007
Helen, not knowing how to post a blog is easily remedied.  This website will give you instructions:  http://www.mychurch.org/blog/18617/how-to-get-around-in-mychurch--a-guide-for-new-members-and-a-reference-for-everyone-else  As for the other concern, I wish I could fix that one as easily!   :)   It is amazing to me that the author of that blog could ever opt out of Christianity.  I have had many friends who believe much as you do, but none of them could have ever written what you wrote.  I suspect that God is not yet finished with you, so be ready!   :)    Your faith may end up differently fashioned than it once was, but I predict one day it will be intact and stronger than ever.  (This is a dangerous website, because I'm praying for you!)  Grace to you, Helen!  (I noticed in your blog that you affirmed the deity of Jesus!)   ;)

Minister Durham, points well taken.  God bless you!  Ariyo, thank you for your comment.  God bless you, and welcome to MyChurch!
Cormack McKinney
August 30, 2007
It's true that we are to do all things in and through love.
But aren't we also called to lovingly rebuke a brother or sister in Christ who knows they do wrong but does it anyway?
Jess Stuart
August 31, 2007

I understand where you are coming from, Minister Durham.  I guess I feel its more loving to verify I understand someone before I call what they've said into question, especially when calling them into question publicly.  It never hurts to ask "What you said sound like this to me.  Do I understand you correctly?"  In fact, I've noticed when I charge in with arguments blazing, proving to everybody that my viewpoint is the correct one, people don't listen.  When I take the time to understand, and be understood, people listen readily (they may not agree, but they listen).  By seeking to understand, I've peacefully shared the Gospel with even feminists and gays.

Case in point: the purpose of Kathy's blog is to state there are situations where stating Biblical guidance is exactly the wrong thing to do.  This is a very true statement.  Jesus didn't quote scripture to most of the people He spoke with, and He'd certainly know the right thing to do.

I see many responses where people are reacting to a title, rather than discussing the issue the blog brings up.  I find this fascinating, actually.  We follow a God who listens to every crazy thing we ever pray to Him, who never stops my prayers to say "Jess, you just shouldn't be praying things like that to Me."  In addition to that, Jesus listened to the demons who were possessing that poor man in Mark 5.  If God listens to us with so much grace, shouldn't we listen and speak to each other with the same grace?

Remone Durham
September 01, 2007
Point well taken Jess.

Be blessed.
Laddy_May
September 02, 2007
I cannot quote this scripture perfectly, but I was reminded of it nonetheless while reading this entry...take the log out of your own eye before attempting to remove the speck from your brother's.
Ken
September 03, 2007
Jesus said he would know we were his deciples because we loved one another, this is the Love you are speaking about. When we approach anyone in any situation it must be done by us first humbling ourselves so that we can first love them, thewn and only then can we see past our own logs to help them with their mote's. You have had great insight into the pharisees lives zealous for God but lacking Love. 
David Perkins
September 03, 2007
Kathy, this is a thought provoking subject. So, thank you for bringing it up.  The only  thing I would add to the title is "Why it Sometimes doesn't work."  I've copied an email I got in late June about my radio ministry here in the Fort Worth/Dallas area.  It says
"Dear David,
I had been getting the announcements for your sermons for quite some time now, had meant to listen them but never bothered.
Yesterday I decided to take the time. I found out that my older stereo doesn't quite reach 1630am, my Walkman didn't have batteries and I couldn't find a working headset. Well, the dollar store had batteries and headsets so I was in business! The Walkman started cutting out so I listened in on the net.
In my view and experience, self proclaimed Christians are anything but. Those people have turned me away from faith.
I found your sermon refreshing and truthful!
None of that holier than thou crap!
I intend to listen to your sermons in the future.
 
Thank you, love
 
Joachim"

"None of that holier than thou crap!"  So, biblical evangelism, even when well intentioned, is sometimes too much for certain people. 
On why Jesus was so against Pharisees; Jesus himself said why, in Matthew 23:25 and Luke 11:39, when he told them they were like cups that had been washed clean on the outside but were still dirty on the inside.  We have modern day Pharisees who still do this and in so doing turn off those needing God's help.

Love
David
The Jesus Christ Said Ministries
www.JesusChristSaid.com
john cummins
September 03, 2007
Minister D. Your points I'd made earlier and they are correct. We certainly are not Pharisees, see above.
Kathy
September 03, 2007
Hi Cormack!  Agreed, and nice to meet you!

Hi Ken, David, and Laddy May!  Welcome to MyChurch!  I hope to see more of all of you!  Laddy May, Matt. 7:3 is a great verse!  Thank you all for sharing your thoughts!

debbie
September 04, 2007
Speak it sister!  It is soooo hard to be loving all the time....if only we would train our children to do it differently, not to follow our example, as we were taught by our forefathers and they by theirs.... by their words and their actions....we must turn this around! Why is it so easy to be negative? Why is this our "nature"?? Very frustrating!
Kathy
September 04, 2007
Welcome to MyChurch, Debbie!  You are right.  We are all products of our parents and ancestors, and often must work hard to break the destructive cycles they have perpetuated.  Education is such an important key to breaking free of our chains and turning the control of our lives over to God.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Andrew Scargill
September 06, 2007
hi....so i agree with you that ridacule each other in an unloving way all the time.and might act like the best of christians but we are not doing it in the name of love(God). but still, are you trying to say that biblical guidance doesn't work at all??? what about church? surley my minister does it out of love for God and spreading the word and for anybody that is sitting  in the pews.
what do ya think???
Andrew Scargill
 St.James Crinken Church,
Ireland
Margaret  Galbraith
September 06, 2007
 GREETINGS FROM NORTHEN IRELAND....
 I THINK GALTIANS 6:1-5 SAYS A LOT ON "WHY BIBLICAL GUIDENCE DOSE'NT WORK"
 I KNOW APPLYING THIS DOES WORK.....   
 BLESS YOU
 SHALOM
 MARGARET
Singin4daLord
September 06, 2007

I completely understand what you are saying, however, Biblical guidance, if done correctly, helps immensely.

 I will give you an example.  I was going through a very tough depression many years ago.  I wanted to commit suicide, though I knew that wasn't the answer.  One of the things I said over and over again to myself was that "a true Christian shouldn't feel this way." This made my depression even worse.

 Not only was I upset over life's struggles, but I was upset that maybe I wasn't even a Christian.  A very dear Christian brother said these very words to me, "You know Richard, you aren't alone in your depression.  One of the most powerful men of God in the Bible, the prophet Elijah, was so depressed he prayed that God would take his life.  Even through that depression, God spoke to Elijah and used him in a mighty way.  Read that account somewhere after 1 Kings chapter 18 and let me know what you think."

 I read it, and wow did it bless me.  A Biblical answer to my problem.  I wasn't alone, a great man of God in Elijah was depressed too.  If God could use him, he can still use me.

Kathy
September 06, 2007
Andrew, Margaret, and Singin, I agree!  Thank you for taking the time to share your comments!
Mrs Annette
September 08, 2007
Kathy,
Well spoken!! However as Christians it is our responsibiity to share Christ and how best to share HIM than to share HIS words in Love!  Becoming a Christian and living the Christian is so exciting, especially digging in His Word and finding treasures (scriptures) that are such healing words (medicine for the soul).  I completely agree with you that once we are equipped with all this knowledge....we then don't know what to do with it or how apply it ...first to ourselves and then in helping our brother.  We first must allow HIS Words to clean out every area of our lives, too many times we read and read and it's so good and the cleaning process is going good but then it becomes spring cleaning and a little to painful then we pull back...(which in fact stops the Holy Spirit but we continue on) and although we gain in head knowledge, we lack in the Heart area
LOVE....   Why?  Think of the Holy Spirit really doing a spring cleaning on our Heart, our Mind, our Life...and His cleansing agent is Christs' LOVE -whenever it passes over each area it not only cleanses it - it penetrates ...it's completely absorbed so that not only does it look clean but it smells clean too.   It's only by this Deep Cleaning that His Love will permeate from our very being.  This is obtained instantaneously by our complete surrender!  The moment we resist --- the absorbtion stops. We can't go forward without going back to that point...and we all know...were that point is, it's forever in our thoughts because it's the area we left untouched!   So the question is are we "Head Knowledge" or do we actually experience His Love ...(smell Him) ... when people experience US?
Guess What...I have missed the mark so many times...but what do I do?
...I fall down...I get up...with the help of His forgiving Hand! Living in a constant state
of humbleness and Love for Him! It's that Love that we need to wrap around our brothers and sisters...

Humbly Serving Him,
Annette
 
Mrs Annette
September 08, 2007

Sorry, but I left out the most important part...that is... as we are loving them -- we are to share the very scriptures that Christ used in our healing...simply write it down on a piece of paper and give it to them...Christ will do the rest. 

Jesus doesn't need our help, He invites us to Experience Him, in each of these situtations or shall I say "Tests of Obedience"!  

Have we gotten so busy in our lives and our schedules that we have missed so many Blessings of Experiencing Him!  (Which is the "Soul" purpose of our very existence)...Experiencing Him by Sharing Him!!!  Amen & Amen!

When was the last time that our organized schedule didn't allow us to speak, help, love on someone that Christ specifically put in our path!

Humbly Serving Him,

Annette 

 

 

Kathy
September 08, 2007
Great insights, Annette!  Thank you for being a part of my blog, and welcome to MyChurch!
Theosophus
September 09, 2007

As a man who was diagnosed as bipolar about 15 years ago, I found your post particularly poignant. If most Christians would take your advice to heart, I would have the luxury of worshipping with them.  Instead, my experience with the church's attitude toward people with mental challenges is that we are not welcome there. I think it quite sad that the institution that Jesus created to reach out to the suffering has become a haven to escape them. I encourage you to press on, Kathy. You are the first Christian I have seen in a long time whose response to those like me is comensurate with what Jesus teaches.

In His Love,

Theosophus

Ambassador for Christ 

Kathy
September 09, 2007
Hi Larry!  Your post pains my heart.  I do not know your life story, but I am so sorry you have felt marginalized from the Church.  With all the mental challenges prevalent all around us, and all the information available, I am sad for the attitudes that even Christians continue to perpetuate.  It is our human nature to fear and avoid those who are different from us, whether racially, linguistically, physically, or . . . the list is limitless.  Larry, for all the times I have marginalized anyone, even just for not knowing what to say, I deeply apologize to you. 

And though I appreciate your vote of confidence in me, please hear me when I say to you that any good in my words comes only from God, and that God has many servants who strive to be His hands and feet and voice to all His precious children.  Please don't give up on the church, Larry.  Keep searching for the church that has learned to love.  You will find many of His Church right here on MyChurch.  Welcome, Larry!  I look forward to getting to know you here!
Mrs Annette
September 09, 2007

Hey  Larry & Kathy,

I know that I am new to this blogging...but I have to comment to Larry's pain.   I apologize too on behalf of the Christian community who fall short...in areas that we may have no known knowledge of...or situations that cannot be a quick fix by prayer or one that cannot be sweep under the rug. I have lived through this very painful illness with a close family member,  they felt alienated from the church family because they believed that "the church" had prejudged them by thinking that  "there must be unconfessed sin" that is why you have not been delivered from this illness...and continue living in bondage!  But what I have come to "Know" only by living through it and am now on the other side... listening and watching...is that they only did what they knew to do... and whenever that didn't work they were at a lose.  Therefore could only pray!   This all reflects back to my above comment!  They really never embraced the true meaning of "Love"....Jesus Christ in His fullness!  Would have reached out and embraced You and the other million of hurting people...and wouldn't require You the hurting to come to church to get your hug...but would step out of their comfort zone to minister to you right where you are!  

Because whenever you do embrace His fullness..."People Will Feel His Love Following Through You"!   What I have learned in life is that even in "Mental Illness"..."Division In The Church" and  other situations we claim as our bondage...our analyst about the situation needs to change.   It's actually another "Test" of Him...which we think is our "Test" (and it is to some degree) but it is also a "Truer Test" is for the people around us.   Christ allows His children to go through things because He has faith in us!   "CHOSEN"...by Christ himself to test other children!   So don't count it all lose!   Rethink your situation!    Remember Job?   "Everything is a Test"  either for our own actions or our reaction"  My advise...NO NO...Christ's instructions are do not worry about yesterday or tomorrow... LIVE for HIM TODAY...and if TODAY is TOO BIG...then LIVE FOR HIM IN EACH MOMENT!!!   I know it's hard...My mom went through this and she was a Stronger Christian when she got to the other side....BUT WHOW WHAT A RELATIONSHIP SHE HAD WITH HIM BECAUSE OF THIS VERY TEST...

There have been many other situations that have been hard also...and what I have learned especially dealing with the church...is don't look at the people  of the church(period)...for they are IMPERFECT and 9 x's out of 10 will hurt you) 1st .....YOUR ALLEGIANCE IS TO THE LORD AND THE LORD ALONE!!!!    2nd.....FIND A CHURCH WHERE THE PASTOR PREACHES THE WORD OF GOD! 3rd....GET PLUGGED IN AND SERVE GOD...not man!!!  Don't hinder Jesus from using you to  heal, minister, convict, BLESS other people by witnessing your relationship with JESUS CHRIST!!!   Just know that there are many people praying for you...I am and I know that Kathy is too...

His Humble Servant!

Annette 

 

 

Theosophus
September 10, 2007

Kathy & Annette,

       I want to thank you both for your kindness and humble encouragement. I want to take this opportunity to clarify a few things. If you wish to comment further (and I hope you do) please continue this dialogue by emailing me at larrylambert2@cox.net. First of all, this last church of which I was a member was not the only I have dealt with concerning this issue. I have been to several over the past twenty years and I am afraid they all fall pathetically short. One of the more common symptoms of bipolar disorder is an overwhelming feeling of worthlessness. I am intelligent, articulate, and a gifted writer. But my church ignores my talents and refuses to properly address the vicious rumors that are inevitably circulated about people like me. I simply cannot be a part of a church that only exacerbates my condition -- doing so would put my life at an unacceptable risk. The last church I attended was, in my estemation, the absolute best in my geographical area -- they simply do not see the need to structure their mission to accepting the mentally ill.

       Second, my specific version of bipolar disorder is known as cyclothymia, a milder form of the malady. My grievence with the church is not so much how they treat me, but how I have observed the way they treat other mentally ill people who so often come seeking refuge from the pain they bear, and so quickly see the church offers them nothing they need. I refuse to be part of a group that I cannot recommend to those in need. I know that for them to go to most churches will only cause them more pain.

 

     I have pondered, meditated, and prayed about my dilemma assiduously and must tell you I feel no guidence to seek out a church that is more open to those like me. I can tell you, however, that unless congregations open their eyes and and hearts to this growing need, they will wither and die while those who meet that need flourish. God will not bless those who ignore His guidence. It is my observation that far too many churches seek out "pretty" people to fill their pews, while those who need Christ the most are left in the cold.

      Again, I appreciate your concern and encouragement.

 

In His Love,

Larry

Ambassador for Christ 

Margaret  Galbraith
September 10, 2007
all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine
for reproof, for for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Tim.3:16-17.
Does'nt God say it better! (in fewer words)
Gal 6:1-10 keeps the balance!!!
David Perkins
September 10, 2007
To Mrs Annette and Theosophus,
The healing touch of Jesus Christ works, not only in a church with the church officials or members, but the Spirit of God's Holy Love, The Holy Ghost, is at work in our lives everywhere.  Jesus Christ commanded many demons to come out of people.  Most of us, the followers of Christ, are not mental health professionals -that's what a mentally ill person needs in additon to Jesus Christ- but we have a command from Jesus Christ to take care of the "least of these"  and that includes the stranger, the hungry, the alien (which would be anyone not like us) and the poor among others in need.
So, Mrs Annette, when you said to serve God not man, you ARE serving God when you serve man.  Jesus Christ said to "Love one another", this involves another follower of Christ -man.  Jesus Christ said to "Love your neighbor as yourself", this involves another human being -man.  And Jesus Christ said to "Love your enemies", this involves your enemies, whoever they are and that involves another human being -again man.  The last command would involve being against war so enemies can become friends. So, by serving man, including those with afflictions like Theosophus and his friends, we followers of Christ are serving God.
I cannot stress strongly enough that a Christian's duty is to reach out to others in need, whether we agree with that need or not, and help that person by any means we can, whether it be governmental, from a charity/church or individually.
Theosophus, and others, do not give up on Jesus Christ just because you've encountered followers of Christ who do not understand their duties.  Indeed, your asking for thier help is in a way helping them to see clearly their task as a follower of Christ.
Love
David
Mrs Annette
September 10, 2007

GET PLUGGED IN AND SERVE GOD...not man!!!    This statment by no means ...meant not to minister to everyone that Christs' places in our pathes...which includes church members.

In everyone's life there are Mountain Highs and Valley Lows...it's when we are in the Valley Lows that we tend to reach up and grab the first hand we see to pull us up out of that dark pit...in doing so we may grab onto/and hold tight to someone other than the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.  When in fact what WE NEED more than anything is to simply get alone with GOD!  BE STILL AND KNOW THAT HE IS GOD!!!  Absorb His Scriptures so that "the healing process can begin".  In our weakness we pray to God but because He doesn't give us a quick fix...we begin searching out others to get their advice...have them pray about it...what would you do....fix me!!!.  We look to people ...more often to the leaders of our church...The Pastor...The Deacons...The Sunday School Teachers...anyone but ourselves to find the Truth.  We can point fingers all we want but the bottom line is WE are accountable for our Actions/Reactions/Nonactivity to Christ.

Bottomline is that when "WE" are right with God, HE CAN USE US WHEREVER!!! We can point fingers at the church all day...but who is the Church -WE ARE-   Who is the Body of Christ...We Are....There is a song that says...Why aren't these handing reaching...touching  "Because We Aren't Reaching and Touching people for JESUS"!   We have to accept responsibility for our own actions/our own relationship with Christ...quit looking at other people/and judging them because they don't fix me... and Just Start Living For Jesus!!!   Lord Let It Begin With Me!!!! We need to ask God, let me minister to someone today...let me Help someone today....Lord Use Me!

Trust Me - I'am Preaching To Myself!!! 

~ I have been on both sides of this spectrum, it is not easy, and I still have a long way to go....

~ We have to remain moldable/flexable in the Masters Hand ...so that He can use us at any given moment- however He chooses...AND THAT BY ALL MEANS--MINISTERING TO PEOPLE... :)

 His Humble Servant,

Annette

PS... I look at the scriptures like a beautiful oriential hand fan....when handed the fan we know exactly what it is...but until we open it/or learn to open it we can't experience it's beauty!  When we hand the fan to someone else ...they cannot experience it's full beauty...because they don't know how to open it/ So we open it for them / not only are they Blessed by it's beauty but so are we! 

Theosophus
September 10, 2007

Kathy, Annette, Magaret, and David;

     Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy schedules to respond to me. Before we go any further, allow me to shed some light on some points:

Healing 

     The best medical knowledge to date holds that bipolar disorder is due mostly to a chemical imbalance in the brain. If true (and I do not dispute this), this particular form of depression is physiological and not psychological. Although counsling and therapy are effective in giving the patient necessary coping skills, they are not, nor will they ever be cures. Telling a bipolar he or she needs to "get over it," "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," or to "read their Bible and spend time in prayer," is not only ignorant, but also insensitive. I will stress this for emphasis: bipolar disorder is physiological and not psychological. The bipolar cannot simply overcome his or her depression by sheer will.

     The question for the Christian is not can God heal, but whether or not He does. Can God create a unicorn? No one even casually acquainted with our God disputes His ability to do so. If the finite mind of man can conceive it, then God can certainly create it! Yet, we all know unicorns do not exist in reality. I believe when it is God's will to heal someone, He can and does heal them. I do not believe that God always does what we, in our limited understanding, want Him to do. 

      When I first learned that I was bipolar 15 years ago, I watched as my whole world slowly crumbled around me. My friends deserted me one by one. My family, with their rudimentary understanding of mental illness, began to regard me as though I were a blithering idiot; nothing I said or did was worthy of their respect.Then, one of my last places of refuge, the church, while telling me to my face that I was welcome (We love ya and are praying for ya, brother), was in fact, hoping I would go away and relieve them of a burden they could not bear. I cannot imagine anyone wanting God to heal them more that I did. I have no doubt there are a few spiritual giants reading this who are shaking your heads, saying to yourselves, "He obviously didn't have enough faith." To those people I have two responses: 1)Unless your own experience with faith is on a level above asking God to heal you of the sniffles, that experience will not impress me, and 2) if I believe by faith that I can fly, and I "step out" on that faith by leaping off my roof, one of two results will occur a) I will eventually succomb to my injuries to the point of death or dibilitation, or b) it will occur to me that it is not God's will that I fly. Those who believe that God can only be glorified by healing those who believe in Him have a limited concept of God. I know and serve a God who sometimes uses our ailments to demonstrate the magnitude of His power!

     As I pointed out in an earlier post, I am cyclothymic, which means I am mildly affected with mood swings that others find debilitating. In my search for answers, God has lead me to see that I suffer from this affliction for the purpose of experiencing it and explaining it to people like you, His servants. Now that I know this, I would never ask God to take it from me. I embrace my illness. Without it, I could not comprehend the pain of others. In short, please do not attempt to comfort me by telling me what God can do. I am more interested in you telling me what you, His servant, are willing to do about this. Yesterday you could have said that you didn't know. Now that you have read this, you no longer have the luxury of ignorance. Will you continue to turn a blind eye to thier plight? Or will you do as your Master commands and love them? Before you blurt out your answer, contemplate the cost of that act. Those who are made most uncomfortable by us; those who are "Christians" because it benefits them financially and socially, will shun you as you embrace these modern day lepers. If they do not, then they will one day be forced to love them also, and it is simply not within their capacity to do so. But I will assume that if you have read this far, you are one of those few, genuine Christians who wants to serve our Lord in this way. That you have sacrificed your reputation to do so, does not mean the price has been fully paid. Sometimes bipolars suffer from grandiose delusions; they imagine they have been embued with superpowers, or that they are uniquely qualified to be president, king, or even God. I recall during the Clinton administration, thinking I could have done more to preserve the dignity of the Oval Office, than Bill Clinton. I'm still not certain whether that is a commentary of my affliction, or his legacy (but I digress). The bipolar will also tell you that he/she is not worthy of your love and attention. She will constantly (in her down phases) insist that she is nobody and amounts to nothing. You will, of course, do your best to reassure her that she is wrong. Let me warn you now that if the best you have to offer her is words of encouragement, you will almost certainly confirm her suspicions. How often do you visit her? Or even call her? Do both she and I a favor -- unless you are actually loving her by doing these acts of genuine love, do not insult her keen intelligence with a mere gesture of love. If you do, she will most certainly resent you for it.

     As the more astute among you may have noticed by now, I am not here seeking comfort or reassurance. God has blessed me with a very special young woman that seems to have the gift of knowing what I need. I think God chose someone who professes to be an atheist to love me as an example to Christians of what they can and should do. If she, using her own limited resources as a human being, can make me feel like I matter (something that no Christian has yet to do), then what could someone with the power and resources of God do? My purpose here is to help those of you who seek to genuinely serve God understand the mentally ill better. Trust me, these people hear God calling them to a place of refuge, only to find the ignorant and fearful blocking the door.

Scripture

     If you are one of those who believes that God's Word has all the answers, let me ask you a question. The Bible obviously holds immense value to you and you are therefore in the position to read and believe what God has to say to you. Because you believe His words; because you have faith, you are blessed through His Word. The millions of unchurched, many of whom suffer some kind of mental illness, do not have the comfort you have; they do not know Jesus nor His Word. All they know of Him is your presentation of Him. In II Corinthians 5:20, we are told that we are ambassadors for Christ. To the Christian, this is not a voluntary office. If we tell others that we are Christians, we are, whether for good or ill, representatives of God's Kingdom. So here is the question: when others see the life you live and reflect on the devotion you have to Jesus Christ, do they see someone who is genuinely a cut above devotees of religious dogmatism? Or do they see just another person vainly seeking answers? Is your response to the mentally ill no different than the world's? Or do you respond to them with the genuine love of Christ? I agree with you that Scripture is the answer to all our problems, but let's not forget that it is of no use to those who do not know that. It is up to us to inform them of that glorious fact, and the measure of the faith we have in that Book, will do more to persuade them of that than will preaching to them from that Book. I'm certainly not saying we should not preach them the gospel. I'm saying that if we do no more than preach, we are merely moving hot air.

Love With Your Ears

     Because we have experienced God's wonderful love, it is only natural for us to want to share that love. We are so eager to share our faith that we sometimes overlook that those in the most need do not want to hear what you have to say, as much as they want to be heard. I assure you that when you listen to someone in pain, he/she will tell you more than you need to know to lead them to Christ. They are rarely truly skeptical or cynical of our faith. I know both bipolars and Christ well enough to say with confidence, that the God we serve is the one they seek -- and you are all that stands between He and they. Will you continue to block ther way? Or will you you welcome them with open arms and wash their feet (humbly serve them as your brother or sister) by loving them as they are? 

     Let me coclude this post with my farewell. Kathy, you are a fine Christian woman. Your opening post on this subject tells me, despite any past failing in this regard, that you are a genuine servant of our Lord. Annette, your response to my post tells me much the same about you. David and Margaret, the very fact that you took the time to read this thread, let alone respond to it, indicates to me that you also desire to better understand this genuine dilemma of mental illness in the church. But now I must go -- and allow me to explain why:

     Intellectually, I know I am intelligent, articulate and gifted. Pardon me if I seem boastful, but I am not doing it gratuitously. The effects of this insidious disease, even though I have a mild form of it, is that I have this deep and nagging fear, however slight, that I am a stupid, stuttering, fool. There are enough people in my world who believe that that my fear is kept alive and growing. My point is that it is highly unusual for me to be so forthcoming about my personal demons. I assure you that if we were in a church basement right now, trying to get closer by sharing our intimate thoughts and fears, you would hear none of this from me. The anonymity of the Internet allows me to be this candid. Nevertheless, we are having this discussion "publically,": and I have learned through experience that it is only a matter of time before some well-meaning, but poorly trained brother or sister will say something insensitive or even insulting to me. I wish I could tell you that my response would be even-handed and reflect the spiritual maturity of one who has served our Lord for over thirty years, but my confidence that I would do that is not as strong as I'd like it to be. Therefore, I must recuse myself from this discussion while I may still do so with the dignity of the ambassador I claim to be.

     Again, to those of you who would like to continue this dialogue, you are welcome to email me at my primary address, larrylambert2@cox.net, and I will gladly (and comfortably) engage you in conversation about this, as well as many other Christian matters. When I am feeling confident enough, I will start a blog here. The blog will be from the perspective of a wounded soldier, but I also hope to demonstrate that I am not obsessed with mental illness by discussing other poignant issues relevant to today's Christian.

In His Love,

Larry

Ambassador for Christ 

Margaret  Galbraith
September 10, 2007
Sorry you misunderstood but my comment was to Kathy (I should have put her name in, new
to this!)
Bless you....
Kathy
September 10, 2007
Annette, Margaret, and David, thank you for your input and interactions here!  Your contributions are valuable, whether  you have been commenting on blogs for 10 years or 10 seconds! 

Larry, it is quite clear that you are intelligent and articulate, and I can assure you that all of us who post a lot have been insulted, both unintentially and intentionally.  I hope you will come back and post your own blogs when you feel comfortable enough.  You, like every other child of God, have a lot to offer that the rest of us can learn from.  This one line from your description can speak volumes to the readers here:


Then, one of my last places of refuge, the church, while telling me to my face that I was welcome (We love ya and are praying for ya, brother), was in fact, hoping I would go away and relieve them of a burden they could not bear. 

God bless you, Larry.  I hope to interact further with you here at MyChurch as you feel comfortable returning.  I do, however, keep my interactions here in this site, although we could switch to the private MyChurch messaging if you so choose.  Thank you for so boldly sharing your story!   
Brent Johnson
September 10, 2007
Hi Kathy,

This is my first post on mychurch.  You have some interesting thoughts.   I do agree with the premise of looking at myself before I preach to others.  After all, when we point our finger at another, there are 3 fingers pointing back at us. 

I like what you had to say about the depressed or sick person.  So often we (the church) have told the sick it is lack of faith or told them to get over it in the example you used for the depressed person.

Where I differ from you is in how you deal with sin with a brother.  I think we are commanded by scripture to correct a brother/sister in sin.  Look at Mathew 18 which deals with confronting a brother in sin.  The goal is not to kick him out of church but to reconcile him back to Christ.  What I think I hear you saying is not to very careful in our approach.  Examine myself first, approach in love.

I have worked with Youth and Young Couples over the years and they would not react to me charging in to fix everything before they knew I loved them.  Spending time with them and giving them grace gives me the rigth to be heard on these other issues.

Much has been discussed on your blog that I do agree with.  You have clarified much of what I was wondering about when I started reading your original post.  I agree with Biblical Counsel given in Love is the best.  I so appreciate your response to all the give and take on your thoughts.  Thanks for giving me food for thought.  After all, we are told to encourage each other and this is what you have done. 

Grace and Peace to you!

Hi Larry,

My heart goes out to you and ot the way the church treats things that are uncomfortable.  This could be another whole blog.  Think of how Jesus was looked on when he was hanging out with sinners and former prostitutes or with the lepers.  Even more practicle, how often have we welcomed the pretty people with open arms and just said a quick hello to the not-so-pretty when they have visted our churches.  I know that I have thought that in my mind if I didnt' express it.  How I wish we would be broken and humble so Christ could use us as the true light on the hill. What would happen in America and around the world if we were to truly serve him with abandonment?  And to think we give up the abundant life for something comfortable.  How sad, we are the ones missing out.

Grace and Peace to you Larry!
Mrs Annette
September 10, 2007

Larry, Kathy, Margaret and David,

Please let be begin by apologizing for offending or hurting a fellow brother/or/sister in Christ.

I am a very bold but caring person, whose life is not perfect by no means....for which I too have learned some very deep lessons...ones that whenever I and my family got through them realized how very important it is to be completely honest with people.  To stand firm in His Truth because we are worthless without Him!   I believe with all my heart that each one of us have different types of crosses to bare and it's only by Christ's Love & Strength that we can get through each day.  Please, Larry let me share mine with you ....I hope it will encourage you in some way!  I also believe that God places people in our pathes "for a reason" to share our life experiences solely to help His children!  

You do not know me or I you but that doesn't mean, we can't lift each other up in prayer, or give each other and encouraging word....but I also believe that He requires us to hold each other...Christs' children accountable.

I lost my Mom 3 years ago this past August 17th to Non-Hodgskins Lymphoma, she was my spiritual prayer warrior, she was young and full of love for her Lord...she was our rock!   But her life was for from perfect, meaning that Christ allowed her life to be tested time and time again...for which I oftened asked Him...

Why ?  When I was 16yrs old ...my mom was strickened with a very rare paralysis called Guillain Barre Syndrome...she was paralyzed from the neck down. At the time the medical field had only to find that the majority of patients were permanently crippled.  She was too  young and full of life for this...In the cloud of darkness that hung over my head...I would always wonder why. On the other hand my mother was in Houston Methodist defying all odds, all the while praising her Lord through all the horrifying test...for you see although her body was paralyzed she could feel everything during all the nerve tests.  The expected recovery time would take 2 years... My mom however with the help of The Lord Jesus Christ was home in 2 1/2 Months in a wheelchair but could walk with the assistance of a walker and in no time she was fully recovered.  Life was good so we thought but the next few years posed another problem; mom wasn't herself...didn't want to be alone...scared to be alone with her children...couldn't focus....severe depression set in....confusion...withdrawal a list of things began to surface.  We prayed, everyone prayed, the church was "SO" there for their prayer warrior and then they were so not. (It seemed that because they didn't understand...they shout us out...oh yes they would pat us on the back or give us a hug and promised to pray..but)  She wasn't a quick fix...(there must be unconfessed sin) she began doubting her salvation, her faith - but she never doubted her Savior ...she just felt so unworthy to be helped by anyone - even more so by The Almighty.   She was in an out of all our area hospitals, Houstons hospital to no aveal...   My mother was diagnosised with having a chemical imbalanced. She was over-medicated, over electric shocked until they killed her...then brought her back. .they all concluded that there was no hope and stuck her in the state hospital.     Well There Was Hope, it's called "Nature Pathic Doctors" our family learned of a clinic in Oklahoma that would detoxify your system by putting all their patients on fresh and raw vegetables and only natural vitamins.   They used pressure point holding and reflexology to treat her.  And in 2 1/2 years she came back healthier than she ever had been...and completely healed!!!  No More Chemical Imbalance!!!  

Again, we felt everythings OK... we are home free...  I felt, Mom had done her duty...she was my spiritual rock... I looked to her  for spiritual guidance ...which she loved to share with everyone...not for boasting but to simple share what Christ had done in her life...and how much He loved each of us.    

Well, 14 years after her first encounter with Gillian Barre Syndrome, she is stricken with it again, and again she defined all odds.   Full recovery.... So much stronger in her faith!!!

Then December 2003 came when she was diagnosised with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma...hey piece of cake...we all hunkered down in deep prayer.  She immediately got into treatment... she began her nature pathic treatment again( for which she had not been faithful )  and to the doctor's surprise her lymphoids were shrinking... But the chemo treatments were taking a toll on her body...and she became weaker and weaker and for the 1st time in my life I realized that I could possibly lose my MOM.   Fear set in...I prayed...I read...I searched....I begged....I was quite...THERE WAS SILENCE!!!!  So I watched and continued on!  Then Tuesday, August 17th 2:43pm came when I witnessed the very thing I so had prayed would not happen. 

My prayer life was all about Christ giving us a Miracle...and that he did...for HE, Jesus Christ was glorified by her lifes statemony and by her death...how can I say that...there wasn't a day that went by that she didn't share her faith.   Encouraged her children...through this time we regrouped as a family...dug in deep to HIM!   That's exactly what HE WANTED!   Whatever it takes to draw us back to HIM...is HIS PLAN!!!  Mom was simply a willing servant, she wanted to be used by HIM for HIM and would do it again knowing that her whole family came together to be grounded in HIM!!! FOR US TO EXPERIENCE HIM IS HIS WILL FOR OUR LIVES!!!   And We Did!

As my littlest one once replied to a statement that we often said:  We prayed for Christ to heal Mom.....and my daughter said:   HE DID MOMMY.... out of the mouths of babes!

As for my church, it's still my church and has been since the day I was born.  The tensions are still their...but I continue on in HIM/with Forgiveness and I pray you can too!  

His Humble Servant,

Annette 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Margaret  Galbraith
September 11, 2007

Mrs. Annette.
                  you have come through a lot with help from Jesus and your mum too.
He said "in this world we will have tribulation but be of good cheer I have overcome the
world"...... you and your mum are proof of that!!
May HE cotinue to bless you and your family with HIS richness and surround you all
with HIS SHALOM.
Margaret

Margaret  Galbraith
September 11, 2007
 Brent and Larry
       I say Amen to you blogs.
(and to yours Kathy)
 Margaret...
David Perkins
September 11, 2007

Dear Mrs. Annette
You did not offend me nor hurt me but thank you for offering that. 
I preach inclusiveness of all because that's what I see in Christ's words and deeds. I preach inclusion of women, of gays, of those healed and unhealed, hurting and strong, sinner and saved, black, white, yellow, brown and freckled (as I am.)  I also recognize that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ do not agree with this.  Some of us do not recognize and thus, I believe, in embarrassment which sometimes comes out as anger, do not know how to approach or talk to someone different from ourselves.
My thoughts are that, just as we all have gifts from God,  we are all different, that we all have afflictions (even Paul, look at his "Thorn in his flesh.") 
You know that Martin Luther King, Jr. said that the most segregated place is America is church on Sunday morning.  I still see that even today in modern, 21st America.
I've met, and still meet, seemingly "holier than thou" Christians.  But I recognize their afflictions, too, just I recognize yours, Larry's, mine.
Ignorance is not bliss!
The cure is prayer and study of God's word.
But sometimes prayer leads one to a doctor that will do God's bidding and effect a cure, known or unknown by the doctor.
Love
David

Kathy
September 12, 2007
Brent, I'm honored to host your first blog post!  I value your input here and especially reiterate this statement from your comments:  "Spending time with them and giving them grace gives me the rigth to be heard on these other issues."  So much truth in that statement, Brent!  Thanks! 

Annette, thank you for sharing your mom's story.  We can all learn from the experiences you share.  Thank you, Margaret!  David, there is wisdom in what you say!  I'd like to hear you expound on your thoughts.  How do you define "inclusiveness?"  Inclusiveness into what?  Are there boundaries/limits?  Jesus was certainly more inclusive than most of our churches are!
John Tarpley
September 12, 2007
Beautifully written, and so very true. Without LOVE, there is no Christ in one's life.
Kathy
September 12, 2007
Thank you, John, and welcome to MyChurch!  I enjoyed reading about you on your profile page!  You make me smile!
David Perkins
September 13, 2007
Kathy, I'll post Monday about inclusiveness.  I have to write a sermon for recording tomorrow for Sunday broadcast and then Saturday write another sermon for my in person sermon to the nursing home residents.  The two, as you can guess, are very different audiences.  So, don't think I've forgotten you.  Matter of fact, I have a Bible class with my wife and 11 others Wednesday evening and we talked last night a little about what is inclusion.  We were studying first Chronicles in the OT.
Love
David
If anyone gets a chance, listen on the internet to me; 12:30 pm central time.  www.KKGMam.com
Kathy
September 14, 2007
David, I look forward to reading your blog!
David Perkins
September 17, 2007

Kathy (and all) as promised, here's a very short blog on "Inclusiveness in the church."
I looked up the definition of "Include" and found this; "To take in or comprise as part of a whole."  And that got me to thinking that unless we following Christ and the Bible and take in or comprise every one, we as a church are not whole, not complete.  If there is one person left out, for whatever reason, good or not so good, we are not complete.  Since God and Jesus Christ are perfect, our church should also be perfect.  And a church, indeed anything, is not perfect unless it is complete.
To some examples; in the OT, the book of Ruth.  The story -all of these stories will be BRIEF- is that a Moabite woman, Ruth, followed Naomi, her Mother-in-law, the Mother of her dead husband- to Israel and there met and married Boaz.  They became the great-grandparents of King David, who produced the line for Jesus.  Moabites, I might add, were almost constantly at war with Israel, so there was no love lost between the two nations.  And yet, she asked and Israel included Ruth. So, no outsider being included, no Jesus.
Next we find Jesus in John 5 healing a man who had waited by the pool, with healing waters, in Jerusalem.  The man couldn't walk, thus couldn't get down to the pool and no one would carry him.  Jesus, whom the man did not know, came along and cured him (included him back into society.)

In Mark 5:25 Jesus cures a woman who had had a period for many years -thus making her an outcast in society.  She grasps Jesus' hem and he cures her (thus including her back into society.)

in Mark 10:46-52 Jesus gives sight back to a blind man thus including him back into society: "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” 48Many sternly ordered him to be quiet, but he cried out even more loudly, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 

Of course there is Jesus curing the leper -Matthew 8:2 e.g., and in those days -and even up until about 40 years ago- lepers lived in "colonies" segregated from society and could not even be touched for fear of spreading the disease to society.

Jesus never spoke about homosexuality -today's lepers, in a sense- but his curing of both men and women -He made Mary the first evangelist, thus the importance of women teaching or telling men seemed important to Jesus, even if the Baptists of today disagree.  The God of the OT cries for justice from society.  Jesus cries for justice from today's society.  The first step in a just society is to include everyone in it's benefits and the Church should be the first place of inclusion not the last!  Just as God's love for us, all of us, is boundless, so should our efforts to include everyone be boundless.

I'm sure you could add more instances and mount a better argument for inclusion of all, but here is my small plea for us to follow Jesus Christ and include our brothers and sisters, all of them no matter what afflictions they bring, for we all are afflicted in one way or another.  For the church, and us, to be complete, all should be with us at the table of communion of the Holy Spirit of Christ's love.

Love
David

Mrs Annette
September 17, 2007
Amen, Amen, & Amen!!  We fall so short as a church today!  Lord, please forgive us...for there are so many hurting people in the world today.  We really don't have to go far to find them...they ARE right in our back yard. The problem is "we" try to help with no avail.  One must be touched by HIM to be effective!

Thanks Brother Dave for your great words of wisdom!
Humbly Serving Him,
Annette
Kathy
September 17, 2007
Thanks, David.  Jonah found himself in deep trouble because he preferred his own judgment of the Ninevites' worthiness over God's judgment of them.  In his opinion they didn't deserve salvation, but God said go.  I will leave judgment to God.  I'm scared of fish bellies!

Annette, were you responding to the blog or to David's post?  Either way, I agree!  Our help is little without the Holy Spirit working through us!
 
MAP7
September 18, 2007
I believe the main reason why anyone would say that the Bible does not work in application is not only do to lack of love but just go a little deeper and you find selfish motivations, lack of willingness to understand and more than likely an authoritative mind in sheep’s clothing.I think Jesus said it right hypocrites and brood of vipers I believe were some of his choice descriptions for them. Let’s not forget those who use God's words for their own means and the church in revelations caught sleeping and how many of the faith fall because they choose to stay sleep. Jesus warned us about many things in the Bible about the world and this makes the Bible very unpopular to teach in its true meaning. So many churches teach another Bible class called Bible lite. Scriptures being taught like sound bytes. The Bible now becomes exactly what Jesus warned us about in the eyes of the church. A symbol! Now the great deception is on! You now have a worldly interpretation of a Heavenly inspired book. Now we have seen the best that world thinks it can do which is of course total opposite of what we are intended to be. This is another sign that not only is the church of God is in trouble but it has also been infiltrated by the enemy for about one thousand years now. It is time for everyone to start studying with the intent of letting God Teach. If you notice that the Bible often refers to Jesus as Teacher and that he taught. This means that Jesus had interaction with those who really seeked to be taught. The words in the Bible have some real deep wisdom. I would suggest to anyone to go over the word with a fine tooth comb so that you will know exactly what God is saying. God will interpret for you! You do not need someone else to do that this is one of the benefits of the Living word. God is so great that he created a book that actually speaks to you through the words that are written on the pages and the Holy Spirit that whispers gently in your spirit. One other note; Prejudice and racism are two different things all together. The church needs to get on the band wagon for world peace. It is so scary to think that secular world is a head of the church on this subject. Also there are so many things going on with false government agendas been hidden in what they are now calling Christianity. God's people must wake now! 
Kathy
September 20, 2007
Thanks, MAP!  Good words to ponder:

"Bible lite. Scriptures being taught like sound bytes. The Bible now becomes exactly what Jesus warned us about in the eyes of the church. A symbol!"

Welcome to MyChurch!
Mrs Annette
September 20, 2007
Kathy,  I must say, I admire your way with words! 
I have also found your other blogging entries and will be commenting them as well!
Chat with ya later my friend.
Annette
Kathy
September 21, 2007
Thank you, Mrs. Annette!  I look forward to your upcoming comments!
David Perkins
September 21, 2007

Mrs. Annette, I recorded my sermon today for broadcast Sunday.  Don't forget www.KKGMam.com at 12:30pm Sunday afternoon central time on the internet (you won't get the signal all the way from Dallas/Fort Worth to Lake Charles.)  And be sure and tell Aunt Suzy that I mention Greg and her in our prayers.  Although I'm not a Cajun, while I was a country music dj on WBAP in Fort Worth, that signal DID reach out to Thibidioux, La and I'd get request calls from there.  So, in self defense, I learned the cajun yell......aaaaaaaayyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeee!  It was all I could do today in the recording studio to refrain from doing a cajun yell, but I decided, at my age and preaching and all that perhaps I shouldn't.   Anyway give it a listen Sunday.
And Kathy my sermon goes along with the title of this blog, "Ignorance is bliss?"  My main topic was that God was more than the Bible and many people who know the Bible backwards and forwards have yet to find the love of God in their hearts and souls.  I cite the excluders that I keep talking about, those that forget Christ's command to us to "love one another" and they go ahead and keep women down and homosexuals and lesbians out of church and fight every step of the way on civil and equal rights for all.
I'm not "popular" preaching in conservative circles, but unlike when I was a dj, I'm not in this for "popularity."  For the sake of Christ I pay a price.  It fills my heart with joy.
Love
David
www.JesusChristSaid.com

Kathy
September 23, 2007
David, I enjoyed your sermon.  You are a wise and gifted messenger!
Ben Granger
November 21, 2007
EXCELLENT! However, your title sujests that biblical guidance doesn't work, surely if the Bible guides ourselves in guiding others, then can one not therefore say that the Bible guides?
Patrick Hazard
November 21, 2007
Very well said Kathy, I have spoken on this very subject many times.  I think all of us regardless of what God has saved us from will have to deal with being the pharisee judging the tax collector.  It is no easy thing but must be dealt with
Kathy
November 21, 2007

Thanks, Ben!  I agree with you about the title.  I have never been happy with it, but I never changed it because I never thought of an alternative that made me say "yes, that's it!"  But you are certainly correct that the Bible does guide.

Thank you, Patrick.  I think this is one of the largest blind spots in today's Christian culture, and as you say, it's a difficult one . . .

Voice in DC
May 21, 2008
This whole topic continues to come up again and again in different conversations and blogs. Must be something we should listen to and try to understand the sign of the times...
Gene Downs
May 21, 2008
Maybe I just read this more slowly - I saw this a long time ago.  I really like your take on this.   It's all to easy to think that we're high mighty because of what we do (like maybe read the Bile 3 hours every day or whatever) and then pump verses at people when they're down.  But that approach ignores the fact that God meets people where they are.

If we really want to help someone the very next action on our part needs to be to ask to be filled by the Holy Spirit and to invite Him to speak and act through us.

Sometimes, that may mean just sitting with someone and saying nothing.

Gene
Brother Todd
May 21, 2008
My good friend Kathy, I think I sprained a finger scrolling down to where I can interject a thought.  I totally understand what you are saying.  The natural man can not understand the things of God anyway for they are sprititually appraised.  But and this is my big BUT, the Word serves as a two fold purpose.  It convicts and it repels.  For one a Word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in setting of silver, but sometimes, it may be well intentioned and poorly timed, or totally irrelvant, but nonetheless, God's word never returns void and always accomplished the purpose for what it was set forth to do. 

So yes, we open our mouths and insert our feet all the time especially with the Bible, but if we are led by the Spirit and practice compassion, it just might bring about the intended effect.
Kathy
May 22, 2008
Gene, Yes!!  That is exactly what I was trying to say in this blog!  Thank you for summarizing it so perfectly!

Brother Todd, I completely agree that God can use us to share His Word with others who need it.  My point here was that before we quote Scripture to others (unless they have asked us to do so), we must first and most importantly love them with God's love.  If we can quote 5 condemning verses for every sin, and have memorized all the "thou shalt nots", but have not love, we are as a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.  (1 Cor. 13 very loosely!)  I totally agree with you that if the Holy Spirit is leading, we certainly should follow wherever He leads, with whatever words He gives us!

Debbie, thank you for your kind words!  I am honored that this blog spoke to you.  TGBTG!

Voice, thank you for resurrecting this post!  I too have seen many blogs related to this topic in recent months, and agree that God may be speaking to us!