Good word Kathy. Interesting to learn that the Pharisees were martyred for their faith. They definitely had zeal for God then, didn't they? Scary to think that I could be just like them.

As far as confronting others about their sin, I think most of us go to both extremes, but rarely get it just right. We either hit them hard with scriptural admonitions, playing into the Christian stereotypes, OR we ignore, rationalize, or otherwise downplay our brothers'/sisters' sin, leaving it totally unconfronted, b/c we are afraid of confrontation. (I believe the latter occurs far more frequently than the former.) I agree that the best approach is taken in love, and perhaps is relational as well. I much prefer modelling the appropriate lifestyle to advocating it verbally.

As far as counselling depressed persons, man that is hard! You make some good points about this too. I think most of us have been there, but perhaps we're so glad to be the counselor rather than the one counselled that we forget how it feels and approach it all wrong. Of course, the worst thing to say just might be "Just give it to the Lord". That line was used once to terrible effect on a family member of mine who had been in professional counselling for years for depression issues. For goodness sakes, we've got to be careful!

Thanks for another great one!
~mike

I love this post.  In Romans it says to weep with those who weep (12:15).  In Galations it says to restore a sinner gently.  Jesus never told anyone to "read your Bible and pray."  I kind of wish preaching would change a person, though: I preach at myself all the time.

I think the Pharisees forgot about this principle: To get God's results, you have to rely on God's involvement.

I love the serenity prayer, it has a lot to say about a good attitude towards others and myself:

I think this principle is a good application of this verse:

Ok,
I was trying to think what I could say that was insightful and, well ok , self-aggrandising . Then I thought a little bit more about what you said...and well.....thank you!

Thank you, Patrick!

Dennis, lol - love you, brother!

Mujer, ¡gracias mi hermana!  Si necesitas escuchadora, escríbeme, y yo escucharé y oraré.  ¡Dios te bendiga!

Had another thought on all this from Romans 13:8:

Rom 13:8 (NASB) Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

How often have I acted like I owed nothing buy my advice?

Another thought: did you know recovery groups like Alcoholics Anonymous ban giving advice?  People in recovery groups are there to support each other as each person works on themselves by God's direction.

I had a good little saying come to mind, so it might be from God.

Right on Sister!

Hmmm, well once again it looks like I have some disagreements with this post. First, with the mentioned author's points:

I read an interesting article yesterday entitled Pharisees Ancient and Modern.  The author points out the following observations about the Pharisees:

They knew their Bibles.

(According to Jesus they did NOT know the scriptures...e.g., "ye error because you know not the scriptures..."

They were moral.

Again, not according to Jesus... he said they strained at gnats and swallowed camels, that they  ignored the weightier parts of the law, etc.

Many were martyred for their faith.

Really, can the author give one example? Curious!

 They attended church regularly.

(or the synagogue) 

They were evangelical/orthodox.

Were they orthodox? REally?

They were evangelistic. 

Again, really? Did they spread good news of salvation? Really?

Now, Kathy states the following: 

So why do the Pharisees get such a bad rap?  I submit 2 reasons:  1)  They were legalistic, holding the words of the law as their highest authority; 

I agree here they were legalistic but NOT because they took the words of the law as their highest authority but rather they took their own additions and interpretations of the law as the highest authority. And why call it a bad rap? They deserve the rap they got, do they not? 

2)  They used the Scripture to keep everyone else in line.

Again, no, they used faulty interpretation of scripture and legalism in the truest since to do it. The law and scripture ARE spiritual.  

Not to be cantankerous but I would say that, in fact, Biblical guidance is the only type of guidance that "works". 

I am just wondering if everyone that is posting to this blog are from the same church and area or from different churches?  I, myself am from Becker, MN.  The church that I go to doesn't have anyone signed up yet.  My sister who lives in Omaha told me about this site, so I decided to check it out.

jenmama4, I am in NC and have never physically met any of the other posters of this particular blog, although some have become good friends here on MyChurch!  They are from all across the U.S. from CA and OR to FL and VA and all in between, and 2 are even from outside the U.S.!  I'm glad your sister told you about MyChurch!  It's a great site for meeting and fellowshipping with Christian brothers and sisters from all over!  You can see where we are from, what we church we attend, etc. by clicking on our photos.  If you know of others in your church who enjoy the internet, invite them to join you here!  In March I was the first at my church to discover the site, and now there are 11.  We're glad you're here and look forward to getting to know you better! 

I haven't added to this post yet, Hooray!

First of all, Kathy I love this post, and I agree with you! You've raised some really good points to think about.

Second, I'm from O'Fallon, MO next to St. Louis, but my church is full of people on mychurch, we have a ridiculous number of people on here compared to some!

3rd, jen, I am glad you gave your problems to god. It seems that a lot of people try to fix things on their own first, you're not alone in that! I personally have a problem of thinking that I can fix things on my own, and I only call god in once things are so bad that I can't handle it anymore.

Finally, I have a question for recon. I agree that the Pharisees seem hypocrical, but I think they tried to get others to join their faith. Otherwise, how would they have so many followers? And for the most part, it was my inpression that the Pharisees tried to follow the commandments and such. I agree that in their less than happy recieval of Jesus they probably missed a few things, but they didn't try to be immoral.

What Recon is saying is actually correct, but only if you are looking at the issue from Christ's viewpoint.  I don't actually think that is what Kathy or the original writer of that piece was doing.  The different points listed are dead on when you consider how regular people view the religious life.  Some of them are just taken in a different context, such as the statement about being evangelistic.  This is not a statement about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ.  That would have been rather stupid considering the stance they took, wouldn't it?  The word evangelism is used in many different ways that don't have to do with a Christian sharing thier beliefs.  It has to do with reaching out and drawing in others.  From that viewpoint I would say that, yes, they were evangelistic. 

The gist of what is being said is that the commitment that the pharisees had to their religious beliefs was as tangible as the commitment we often have to the very church structure and culture that we live in today.  The truth in Recon's words is that the scripture IS the best sounding board for guidance.  The problem that we have is that alot of times we don't read scripture correctly or we read into it what we want to.  At that point the words become useless.  This is what the pharisees were doing.  Yes they were using scripture to judge others.  They were also using faulty scripture.  Both Kathy and Recon are actually in agreement on this point.  I do side with Kathy on this one, though.  You must read it honestly and apply to your own heart way before you can do it with anyone else.

Howdy All,

I'm typing from sunny Beaverton Oregon.

Thank you, Kaylen and Andy!  I appreciate your comments so much!  You both grasped the spirit of the blog!

Joel, I agree with your look at the other side of the coin, and did acknowledge it at the end of the blog.  I did not give it equal weight, as the purpose of this blog was to help us see the one side that, in my opinion, we are more likely to miss.  Your point, however, is well taken, and I have added the word merely to the sentence you mentioned.  I always appreciate your challenges to hone my thoughts!

Val, you can't know how happy I was to see your post this morning!  I have missed you so much!  Thank you for courageously sharing your story for the many of us who love you and for those who may not even know you but are in a season of struggle and just needed your honesty.  Love to you, my sister, and continued prayers foryou and all your family!    

Spooksam,

 I think Pharisees actually use scripture in a way that tries to find loopholes around the law. Again, the NT says the law is spiritual. Should we willingly sin, become loose and avoid the law? God forbid!

I think I stated succinctly above my qualms with this post. Mainly, I posit that Biblical guidance is the ONLY real guidance that works and I'll stick to that, thankyou. 

Spooksam,

Another thing in your post that I agree with is that the comparison between us and the Pharisees should not be too closely drawn. The fact is, a Christian has a new heart, a heart of flesh and in fact the old man (old nature) is dead. Too many groups keep dredging up the dead man that has been, in fact, buried with Christ.

We must accept what the scripture says about our new creation and move on. Now, the truth is we still battle with the flesh until we have  glorified bodies and with the devil and the world BUT unlike the Pharisees we have a new heart at our core, have a new nature, in reality AND are definitively different from Pharisees, period. 

Sorry, for all the short posts.

I was reading even further Spooksam and you make my point even better that ONLY Biblical counsel "works". It is really only God's Word (mixed with faith) that avails anything and it will not return void unlike our own. It's not that it is mystical or magical but it certainly is a mystery!!

Too many of us skirt around the edges and try to say "nice" things to each other rather than confronting others in a Godly fashion as Paul did to Peter (in public). 

I don't have any problem admiting I've had Pharisaical moments.  While I accept Jesus as my savior, I know there are moments where my actions and attitudes do not even acknowledge Him as God.  While I understand my salvation is through grace, there are many times where my actions and attitudes, exhibited toward myself and others, don't reflect my understanding.

The thing is, just because I have something to say, doesn't mean that I'm the one to say it, or that its the right time to say it.  I heard a phrase once: "Love can always wait to give, lust can't ever wait to take."  There are time when I've very selfishly given advice, because I had an attitude that I was important (or a deep seated motive to try to feel important).  God helped me realize that I wasn't helping other people out much, and that He could manage working in people just fine without my input.  I even came to realize that my input might interfere with God.  He needs them to listen to Him, not to me.

I think it interesting how much the idea that Kathy's point doens't reflect scripture in some way comes up.  I see the point she is making as very Godly and Biblical.  She's basically saying that there are Biblical and unbiblical ways of presenting Biblical advice, and that the way most Christians tend to do this isn't Biblical. 

Here are the verses God has used to help me have a more loving approach to when and how to give advice.

Romans 12:15  Amplified Bible

Rejoice with those who rejoice [sharing others' joy], and weep with those who weep [sharing others' grief].

Proverbs 15:2  Amplified Bible

The tongue of the wise utters knowledge rightly, but the mouth of the [self-confident] fool pours out folly.

Romans 13:8  Amplified Bible

Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].

1 Cornithians 13:4-8   Amplified Bible

4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end].

Wow there is a lot to digest here.  It seems to me that the main point that needs to be heard again and again, is that of LOVE!  Yes we need to use scripture for doctine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, but if we don't approach our brother or sister in a humble loving manner, we will only drive them away.  Grace and mercy must guide us and the Spirit of God will provide the grace and mercy if we will but rely upon him. 

Kathy,
A great blog that has struck a chord with many of us here.  Thanks for taking the time to write and post it.
peace
glenn

Spooksam, you said "I think sometimes we make an assumption that we can either use the Bible or we can use love."  Yes.  Why do we so enjoy dividing ourselves over every issue?  This issue should definitely not be an either/or choice!  Read and study the Bible with diligence, and live  a life of love.

"The Bible is useful for more than just doctrine - 2 Timothy 3:16 says it is trains us in righteousness.  It traines us how to live the Christian life."   That is exactly the point I was trying to make here, Spooksam!  That the Bible should be used to train us (me) in how to live, as opposed to using it first and aforemost to train everyone else! 

I appreciate your thoughts, Spooksam!  And Joel, I appreciate your encouragement!  Always Faithful!

 

Voice, thank you for sharing this.  Many of my blogs are about issues that also convict me, or with which I have struggled at some time.  It's great when God can use your struggles to speak to me and vice versa!

Hi Carrie!  Welcome to MyChurch, and please join in all the blog conversations you want to!

A lot of truth there, Minoson!  Especially pertaining to dishing out advice.  Hurting people are not always looking for advice.  They are looking for presence.  And our misguided words may get in the way of what the Holy Spirit is showing them.  Thanks for posting!  Nice to meet you!

Kathy,

    Your apology for poor title choice is accepted.
 

You know what Kathy?  If this blog had a different title, I'm not sure everyone who read it would have done so.

I knew what you meant, and I agree with it.  Looking back in my life, the people who modelled Godly behavior for me changed my life much more than anyone who gave advice.  In fact, in my life, I gave much more advice when I was less Godly.  I do my best to only give advice when asked.  I've noticed that even if I have relevant advice, the advice 'target' may not be ready to hear it.  In addition, my understanding of their situation depends on my interpretation of what they can communicate.  When I stopped giving advice, I had to humbly accept that the advice I had been giving probably wasn't helpful to begin with - it sure made me feel important to give it, though.

Recon, thanks!   :)    And thank you, Mike and Jess!  Mike, I have gotten to know you well enough to see that you do indeed apply the Bible first to yourself!  It shows in your interactions!  You are a gentle and caring soul!  I think you're right, Jess, about the title.  I purposely chose it as an attention-getter, but I didn't foresee that some would equate the word guidance with guidance counseling.  I could've been clearer.  Thanks to you both for your votes of understanding what the blog was about!

Many fine points in the article, but it leaves much out as to what the Scriptures say in regards to what you term Biblical Guidance. In my mind, the title is misleading. Biblical guidance does work, but as you rightly point out, it must be done with a spirit of love and compassion. If it didn't work, we would have to ask God to recall Psalm 119:105, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Jude 22 says, "And of some having compassion, making a difference." We are called to guide spiritually for how shall they hear except they have a preacher (Rom. 10:14). It is our responsibility (Gal. 6:1-2).

But I would disagree with your accessment that a sinner would necessarily stop sinning if he saw his need and knew how (you also applied this principle to people suffering from depression). Hebrews 6:4-6 states, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." These individuals certainly would have seen their need and were able to grasp that the way was there to be saved, but nevertheless they still chose not to commit. John said the reason that people reject the light is because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. I can assure you that there are many today, and as also recorded in the Bible, that see their need and have grasped the knowledge that Christ is the way but yet continue in their sin. It simply is not as simple as you have written it out to be.

Jess,

    I think maybe that is one of Kathy's tricks. She picks provocative titles that lure us in and then she spends the rest of the time trying to explain something other than what the title meant.

Is that your trick, Kathy? LOL.

Hmmm, I'm not talking about misleading necessarily but luring in...but note the LOL. I would probably add the prayer in school blog...

Biblical Guidance (It works right everytime it is applied correctly!!).

Biblical Guidance Applied Properly!!

Kathy, if you really want to lure us in, you can do better. I'd try adding the word "haunted" to your title. It worked for me. (lol)  Of course I'm kidding, the owner of the armoir really believed it was haunted!

If Biblical guidance doesn't work then why do you quote the Bible. 

 Plus, how can you make a comment about a group of men you know nothing about.  You neither understand them nor understand Christ's dialogue with them.

Proverbs 16:24 Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones.
Proverbs 19:27 Cease listening, my son, to discipline, And you will stray from the words of knowledge.

Your title appears to intentionally mislead.

Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind ... If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Our goal should be to love people and to help them to take their next step spiritually -- whatever that may be.

Thanks for an insightful post.

There are some things to do when faced with a brother that is in sin, isn't there?   I can think of a few  but I'm not sure of the exact passages.  If I would be so bold, I wouldn't list "cheer up" as the first thing I would tell a sinner, or someone who is depressed.  Questioning a person's state is pretty typical here in Louisiana when you can tell something is wrong with a person.    I understand your point, and it is well taken but the title is a bit misleading.  Nevertheless I would not back down from dealing with a sinner according to the biblical mandates set forth by Christ examples and Paul's advice (or orders).  This is a beginning of a great article though.  It just needs to be combed out some more.....

Yours in Christ

B 

Kathy,

I cried when I read this blog. For many years I was overcome by a particular sin that was especially hurtful to me, something that generated a lot of shame and guilt, and condemnation. Many times I found myself crying out in prayer and sinning at the same moment, unable to change my circumstance. I tried reading the Bible more, praying more, even fasting. Nothing helped.

Then one day I told Vicki (my wife) about it. As it turned out, she was already well aware of the problem, but had simply given me some space and prayer. She shared with me that she too had experienced an ongoing battle with the same sin and the Lord made her free a long time ago, and he did it with His love and patience. And that is how Vicki and God set me free from that shameful and hurtful sin.

I've been free from that bondage for a while now, but your blog reminded me of where I would be today if it weren't for the love of God in Vicki's heart and soul toward me.

Thank you. 

Kathy,

I appreciated your blog... interesting and provocative. I'll add my voice to suggesting the title was perhaps a bit too provocative. But it did draw me in to read it! You invited someone in an earlier comment to suggest a better title. Perhaps "When Biblical Guidance Doesn't Work."

While I believe I understand and agree with the key point you're raising, I'd like to point out just a couple things...

First, you confused me a bit, for you started off addressing a situation in which one might be trying to minister to someone who is depressed, hurt, confused, etc., but then shifted later to dealing with someone you observe to be sinning. Certainly our approach - even with the Scriptures - will be somewhat different in each case, will it not? To "be Jesus with skin on" for the depressed brother/sister would mean just "being there," loving them, listening to them, hurting with them, pointing them to Christ and His hope, etc. All of that before we necessarily try to "counsel" them with God's Word. (How many times have we heard someone talking about Job and his friends and heard them say something to the effect of, "Job's friends were doing just fine... until they opened their mouths!")

When we become aware of someone's sin, however, the function of God's Word and of our counsel will necessarily change. I wholeheartedly agree with your primary injunction to us to be sure that we ourselves have first been transformed by God's Word and our lives are lived out and loved out in light of the Truth of the Scriptures. But in that very context is then where we go and in love confront one who is sinning. The Matthew 7 passage you cite is appropriate for your purpose, but Jesus goes on to tell us to first remove the log from our own eye, and then go and remove the speck from our brother's eye.

I hope I'm not protesting too much, for again, I know your concerns are warranted, and your exhortation is appropriate (to first apply Scripture to my own life and my response to others), but I do feel perhaps you've overstated your case. I agree with someone's earlier comment that just because someone recognizes their sin and knows how to stop, it doesn't mean they will. We dare not underestimate the strength and power of our sin nature!

Speaking the Truth in Love is where we each must walk as we relate to one another. Everyone will find their personal application of that perhaps to be a bit different. Truth without Love is dead orthodoxy and the kind of Pharisaism you're warning us against. But it is also true (and please understand I'm not suggesting you're advocating this!) that Love without Truth is insincerity and hypocrisy.

May God help us all to grow in the grace AND knowledge of Christ today.

Blessings! 

Jonathan, God bless you, my brother!  You and Vicki have been in my prayers!

Pastor Lance, thank you for a most intelligently thought out response!  I hope to hear more from you, that you may help to hone my thinking.  You make some very good points.

Jeanie and Minister D, thank you for sharing your thoughts, and welcome to MyChurch.  I invite you both to reread this post and to read through my other posts (just click on my picture), and hopefully you will find we are on the same team, and that we do not disagree as much as you perceive.  Blessing to you both, and I hope to see more of you!

Hey Kathy,

Don't worry, those of us who have read many of your blogs realize how Biblically based your opinions are.  It's funny how many people seem to react to something without checking to make sure they understand what people intend to say:

James 1:19 

19  This you know, my beloved brethren but everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak

Kathy,

I just wanted to also add an affirmation of you for how gracious you've been in all your replies to the various comments throughout this page. Your grace and patience have been the Christlike fruit of the Spirit coming through. I suspect you've perhaps been discouraged and frustrated (& surprised?) at how misunderstood your words have been.

I see (!) Jesus in you, sister! 

Hi Kathy, I agree with you.

Once we've found out what helps us, I think it can be ok to share "this helps me when I feel depressed" if we do it with kindness and gentleness, backing off if we're not being helpful.

That was why I wrote this ten years ago

For Christians in Pain: About God

Kathy, hi, nice to see you too!

I always did like Romans 2:4 :)

The problem with posting it here is, first, I don't know how,  but, second, if I do people will respond to me as if I were a Christian now and that will be awkward.

You can post about it if you like...

I understand where you are coming from, Minister Durham.  I guess I feel its more loving to verify I understand someone before I call what they've said into question, especially when calling them into question publicly.  It never hurts to ask "What you said sound like this to me.  Do I understand you correctly?"  In fact, I've noticed when I charge in with arguments blazing, proving to everybody that my viewpoint is the correct one, people don't listen.  When I take the time to understand, and be understood, people listen readily (they may not agree, but they listen).  By seeking to understand, I've peacefully shared the Gospel with even feminists and gays.

Case in point: the purpose of Kathy's blog is to state there are situations where stating Biblical guidance is exactly the wrong thing to do.  This is a very true statement.  Jesus didn't quote scripture to most of the people He spoke with, and He'd certainly know the right thing to do.

I see many responses where people are reacting to a title, rather than discussing the issue the blog brings up.  I find this fascinating, actually.  We follow a God who listens to every crazy thing we ever pray to Him, who never stops my prayers to say "Jess, you just shouldn't be praying things like that to Me."  In addition to that, Jesus listened to the demons who were possessing that poor man in Mark 5.  If God listens to us with so much grace, shouldn't we listen and speak to each other with the same grace?

I completely understand what you are saying, however, Biblical guidance, if done correctly, helps immensely.

 I will give you an example.  I was going through a very tough depression many years ago.  I wanted to commit suicide, though I knew that wasn't the answer.  One of the things I said over and over again to myself was that "a true Christian shouldn't feel this way." This made my depression even worse.

 Not only was I upset over life's struggles, but I was upset that maybe I wasn't even a Christian.  A very dear Christian brother said these very words to me, "You know Richard, you aren't alone in your depression.  One of the most powerful men of God in the Bible, the prophet Elijah, was so depressed he prayed that God would take his life.  Even through that depression, God spoke to Elijah and used him in a mighty way.  Read that account somewhere after 1 Kings chapter 18 and let me know what you think."

 I read it, and wow did it bless me.  A Biblical answer to my problem.  I wasn't alone, a great man of God in Elijah was depressed too.  If God could use him, he can still use me.

Sorry, but I left out the most important part...that is... as we are loving them -- we are to share the very scriptures that Christ used in our healing...simply write it down on a piece of paper and give it to them...Christ will do the rest. 

Jesus doesn't need our help, He invites us to Experience Him, in each of these situtations or shall I say "Tests of Obedience"!  

Have we gotten so busy in our lives and our schedules that we have missed so many Blessings of Experiencing Him!  (Which is the "Soul" purpose of our very existence)...Experiencing Him by Sharing Him!!!  Amen & Amen!

When was the last time that our organized schedule didn't allow us to speak, help, love on someone that Christ specifically put in our path!

Humbly Serving Him,

Annette 

As a man who was diagnosed as bipolar about 15 years ago, I found your post particularly poignant. If most Christians would take your advice to heart, I would have the luxury of worshipping with them.  Instead, my experience with the church's attitude toward people with mental challenges is that we are not welcome there. I think it quite sad that the institution that Jesus created to reach out to the suffering has become a haven to escape them. I encourage you to press on, Kathy. You are the first Christian I have seen in a long time whose response to those like me is comensurate with what Jesus teaches.

In His Love,

Theosophus

Ambassador for Christ 

Hey  Larry & Kathy,

I know that I am new to this blogging...but I have to comment to Larry's pain.   I apologize too on behalf of the Christian community who fall short...in areas that we may have no known knowledge of...or situations that cannot be a quick fix by prayer or one that cannot be sweep under the rug. I have lived through this very painful illness with a close family member,  they felt alienated from the church family because they believed that "the church" had prejudged them by thinking that  "there must be unconfessed sin" that is why you have not been delivered from this illness...and continue living in bondage!  But what I have come to "Know" only by living through it and am now on the other side... listening and watching...is that they only did what they knew to do... and whenever that didn't work they were at a lose.  Therefore could only pray!   This all reflects back to my above comment!  They really never embraced the true meaning of "Love"....Jesus Christ in His fullness!  Would have reached out and embraced You and the other million of hurting people...and wouldn't require You the hurting to come to church to get your hug...but would step out of their comfort zone to minister to you right where you are!  

Because whenever you do embrace His fullness..."People Will Feel His Love Following Through You"!   What I have learned in life is that even in "Mental Illness"..."Division In The Church" and  other situations we claim as our bondage...our analyst about the situation needs to change.   It's actually another "Test" of Him...which we think is our "Test" (and it is to some degree) but it is also a "Truer Test" is for the people around us.   Christ allows His children to go through things because He has faith in us!   "CHOSEN"...by Christ himself to test other children!   So don't count it all lose!   Rethink your situation!    Remember Job?   "Everything is a Test"  either for our own actions or our reaction"  My advise...NO NO...Christ's instructions are do not worry about yesterday or tomorrow... LIVE for HIM TODAY...and if TODAY is TOO BIG...then LIVE FOR HIM IN EACH MOMENT!!!   I know it's hard...My mom went through this and she was a Stronger Christian when she got to the other side....BUT WHOW WHAT A RELATIONSHIP SHE HAD WITH HIM BECAUSE OF THIS VERY TEST...

There have been many other situations that have been hard also...and what I have learned especially dealing with the church...is don't look at the people  of the church(period)...for they are IMPERFECT and 9 x's out of 10 will hurt you) 1st .....YOUR ALLEGIANCE IS TO THE LORD AND THE LORD ALONE!!!!    2nd.....FIND A CHURCH WHERE THE PASTOR PREACHES THE WORD OF GOD! 3rd....GET PLUGGED IN AND SERVE GOD...not man!!!  Don't hinder Jesus from using you to  heal, minister, convict, BLESS other people by witnessing your relationship with JESUS CHRIST!!!   Just know that there are many people praying for you...I am and I know that Kathy is too...

His Humble Servant!

Annette 

Kathy & Annette,

       I want to thank you both for your kindness and humble encouragement. I want to take this opportunity to clarify a few things. If you wish to comment further (and I hope you do) please continue this dialogue by emailing me at larrylambert2@cox.net. First of all, this last church of which I was a member was not the only I have dealt with concerning this issue. I have been to several over the past twenty years and I am afraid they all fall pathetically short. One of the more common symptoms of bipolar disorder is an overwhelming feeling of worthlessness. I am intelligent, articulate, and a gifted writer. But my church ignores my talents and refuses to properly address the vicious rumors that are inevitably circulated about people like me. I simply cannot be a part of a church that only exacerbates my condition -- doing so would put my life at an unacceptable risk. The last church I attended was, in my estemation, the absolute best in my geographical area -- they simply do not see the need to structure their mission to accepting the mentally ill.

       Second, my specific version of bipolar disorder is known as cyclothymia, a milder form of the malady. My grievence with the church is not so much how they treat me, but how I have observed the way they treat other mentally ill people who so often come seeking refuge from the pain they bear, and so quickly see the church offers them nothing they need. I refuse to be part of a group that I cannot recommend to those in need. I know that for them to go to most churches will only cause them more pain.

     I have pondered, meditated, and prayed about my dilemma assiduously and must tell you I feel no guidence to seek out a church that is more open to those like me. I can tell you, however, that unless congregations open their eyes and and hearts to this growing need, they will wither and die while those who meet that need flourish. God will not bless those who ignore His guidence. It is my observation that far too many churches seek out "pretty" people to fill their pews, while those who need Christ the most are left in the cold.

      Again, I appreciate your concern and encouragement.

In His Love,

Larry

Ambassador for Christ 

GET PLUGGED IN AND SERVE GOD...not man!!!    This statment by no means ...meant not to minister to everyone that Christs' places in our pathes...which includes church members.

In everyone's life there are Mountain Highs and Valley Lows...it's when we are in the Valley Lows that we tend to reach up and grab the first hand we see to pull us up out of that dark pit...in doing so we may grab onto/and hold tight to someone other than the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.  When in fact what WE NEED more than anything is to simply get alone with GOD!  BE STILL AND KNOW THAT HE IS GOD!!!  Absorb His Scriptures so that "the healing process can begin".  In our weakness we pray to God but because He doesn't give us a quick fix...we begin searching out others to get their advice...have them pray about it...what would you do....fix me!!!.  We look to people ...more often to the leaders of our church...The Pastor...The Deacons...The Sunday School Teachers...anyone but ourselves to find the Truth.  We can point fingers all we want but the bottom line is WE are accountable for our Actions/Reactions/Nonactivity to Christ.

Bottomline is that when "WE" are right with God, HE CAN USE US WHEREVER!!! We can point fingers at the church all day...but who is the Church -WE ARE-   Who is the Body of Christ...We Are....There is a song that says...Why aren't these handing reaching...touching  "Because We Aren't Reaching and Touching people for JESUS"!   We have to accept responsibility for our own actions/our own relationship with Christ...quit looking at other people/and judging them because they don't fix me... and Just Start Living For Jesus!!!   Lord Let It Begin With Me!!!! We need to ask God, let me minister to someone today...let me Help someone today....Lord Use Me!

Trust Me - I'am Preaching To Myself!!! 

~ I have been on both sides of this spectrum, it is not easy, and I still have a long way to go....

~ We have to remain moldable/flexable in the Masters Hand ...so that He can use us at any given moment- however He chooses...AND THAT BY ALL MEANS--MINISTERING TO PEOPLE... :)

 His Humble Servant,

Annette

PS... I look at the scriptures like a beautiful oriential hand fan....when handed the fan we know exactly what it is...but until we open it/or learn to open it we can't experience it's beauty!  When we hand the fan to someone else ...they cannot experience it's full beauty...because they don't know how to open it/ So we open it for them / not only are they Blessed by it's beauty but so are we! 

Kathy, Annette, Magaret, and David;

     Thank you all for taking the time out of your busy schedules to respond to me. Before we go any further, allow me to shed some light on some points:

Healing 

     The best medical knowledge to date holds that bipolar disorder is due mostly to a chemical imbalance in the brain. If true (and I do not dispute this), this particular form of depression is physiological and not psychological. Although counsling and therapy are effective in giving the patient necessary coping skills, they are not, nor will they ever be cures. Telling a bipolar he or she needs to "get over it," "pull themselves up by their bootstraps," or to "read their Bible and spend time in prayer," is not only ignorant, but also insensitive. I will stress this for emphasis: bipolar disorder is physiological and not psychological. The bipolar cannot simply overcome his or her depression by sheer will.

     The question for the Christian is not can God heal, but whether or not He does. Can God create a unicorn? No one even casually acquainted with our God disputes His ability to do so. If the finite mind of man can conceive it, then God can certainly create it! Yet, we all know unicorns do not exist in reality. I believe when it is God's will to heal someone, He can and does heal them. I do not believe that God always does what we, in our limited understanding, want Him to do. 

      When I first learned that I was bipolar 15 years ago, I watched as my whole world slowly crumbled around me. My friends deserted me one by one. My family, with their rudimentary understanding of mental illness, began to regard me as though I were a blithering idiot; nothing I said or did was worthy of their respect.Then, one of my last places of refuge, the church, while telling me to my face that I was welcome (We love ya and are praying for ya, brother), was in fact, hoping I would go away and relieve them of a burden they could not bear. I cannot imagine anyone wanting God to heal them more that I did. I have no doubt there are a few spiritual giants reading this who are shaking your heads, saying to yourselves, "He obviously didn't have enough faith." To those people I have two responses: 1)Unless your own experience with faith is on a level above asking God to heal you of the sniffles, that experience will not impress me, and 2) if I believe by faith that I can fly, and I "step out" on that faith by leaping off my roof, one of two results will occur a) I will eventually succomb to my injuries to the point of death or dibilitation, or b) it will occur to me that it is not God's will that I fly. Those who believe that God can only be glorified by healing those who believe in Him have a limited concept of God. I know and serve a God who sometimes uses our ailments to demonstrate the magnitude of His power!

     As I pointed out in an earlier post, I am cyclothymic, which means I am mildly affected with mood swings that others find debilitating. In my search for answers, God has lead me to see that I suffer from this affliction for the purpose of experiencing it and explaining it to people like you, His servants. Now that I know this, I would never ask God to take it from me. I embrace my illness. Without it, I could not comprehend the pain of others. In short, please do not attempt to comfort me by telling me what God can do. I am more interested in you telling me what you, His servant, are willing to do about this. Yesterday you could have said that you didn't know. Now that you have read this, you no longer have the luxury of ignorance. Will you continue to turn a blind eye to thier plight? Or will you do as your Master commands and love them? Before you blurt out your answer, contemplate the cost of that act. Those who are made most uncomfortable by us; those who are "Christians" because it benefits them financially and socially, will shun you as you embrace these modern day lepers. If they do not, then they will one day be forced to love them also, and it is simply not within their capacity to do so. But I will assume that if you have read this far, you are one of those few, genuine Christians who wants to serve our Lord in this way. That you have sacrificed your reputation to do so, does not mean the price has been fully paid. Sometimes bipolars suffer from grandiose delusions; they imagine they have been embued with superpowers, or that they are uniquely qualified to be president, king, or even God. I recall during the Clinton administration, thinking I could have done more to preserve the dignity of the Oval Office, than Bill Clinton. I'm still not certain whether that is a commentary of my affliction, or his legacy (but I digress). The bipolar will also tell you that he/she is not worthy of your love and attention. She will constantly (in her down phases) insist that she is nobody and amounts to nothing. You will, of course, do your best to reassure her that she is wrong. Let me warn you now that if the best you have to offer her is words of encouragement, you will almost certainly confirm her suspicions. How often do you visit her? Or even call her? Do both she and I a favor -- unless you are actually loving her by doing these acts of genuine love, do not insult her keen intelligence with a mere gesture of love. If you do, she will most certainly resent you for it.

     As the more astute among you may have noticed by now, I am not here seeking comfort or reassurance. God has blessed me with a very special young woman that seems to have the gift of knowing what I need. I think God chose someone who professes to be an atheist to love me as an example to Christians of what they can and should do. If she, using her own limited resources as a human being, can make me feel like I matter (something that no Christian has yet to do), then what could someone with the power and resources of God do? My purpose here is to help those of you who seek to genuinely serve God understand the mentally ill better. Trust me, these people hear God calling them to a place of refuge, only to find the ignorant and fearful blocking the door.

Scripture

     If you are one of those who believes that God's Word has all the answers, let me ask you a question. The Bible obviously holds immense value to you and you are therefore in the position to read and believe what God has to say to you. Because you believe His words; because you have faith, you are blessed through His Word. The millions of unchurched, many of whom suffer some kind of mental illness, do not have the comfort you have; they do not know Jesus nor His Word. All they know of Him is your presentation of Him. In II Corinthians 5:20, we are told that we are ambassadors for Christ. To the Christian, this is not a voluntary office. If we tell others that we are Christians, we are, whether for good or ill, representatives of God's Kingdom. So here is the question: when others see the life you live and reflect on the devotion you have to Jesus Christ, do they see someone who is genuinely a cut above devotees of religious dogmatism? Or do they see just another person vainly seeking answers? Is your response to the mentally ill no different than the world's? Or do you respond to them with the genuine love of Christ? I agree with you that Scripture is the answer to all our problems, but let's not forget that it is of no use to those who do not know that. It is up to us to inform them of that glorious fact, and the measure of the faith we have in that Book, will do more to persuade them of that than will preaching to them from that Book. I'm certainly not saying we should not preach them the gospel. I'm saying that if we do no more than preach, we are merely moving hot air.

Love With Your Ears

     Because we have experienced God's wonderful love, it is only natural for us to want to share that love. We are so eager to share our faith that we sometimes overlook that those in the most need do not want to hear what you have to say, as much as they want to be heard. I assure you that when you listen to someone in pain, he/she will tell you more than you need to know to lead them to Christ. They are rarely truly skeptical or cynical of our faith. I know both bipolars and Christ well enough to say with confidence, that the God we serve is the one they seek -- and you are all that stands between He and they. Will you continue to block ther way? Or will you you welcome them with open arms and wash their feet (humbly serve them as your brother or sister) by loving them as they are? 

     Let me coclude this post with my farewell. Kathy, you are a fine Christian woman. Your opening post on this subject tells me, despite any past failing in this regard, that you are a genuine servant of our Lord. Annette, your response to my post tells me much the same about you. David and Margaret, the very fact that you took the time to read this thread, let alone respond to it, indicates to me that you also desire to better understand this genuine dilemma of mental illness in the church. But now I must go -- and allow me to explain why:

     Intellectually, I know I am intelligent, articulate and gifted. Pardon me if I seem boastful, but I am not doing it gratuitously. The effects of this insidious disease, even though I have a mild form of it, is that I have this deep and nagging fear, however slight, that I am a stupid, stuttering, fool. There are enough people in my world who believe that that my fear is kept alive and growing. My point is that it is highly unusual for me to be so forthcoming about my personal demons. I assure you that if we were in a church basement right now, trying to get closer by sharing our intimate thoughts and fears, you would hear none of this from me. The anonymity of the Internet allows me to be this candid. Nevertheless, we are having this discussion "publically,": and I have learned through experience that it is only a matter of time before some well-meaning, but poorly trained brother or sister will say something insensitive or even insulting to me. I wish I could tell you that my response would be even-handed and reflect the spiritual maturity of one who has served our Lord for over thirty years, but my confidence that I would do that is not as strong as I'd like it to be. Therefore, I must recuse myself from this discussion while I may still do so with the dignity of the ambassador I claim to be.

     Again, to those of you who would like to continue this dialogue, you are welcome to email me at my primary address, larrylambert2@cox.net, and I will gladly (and comfortably) engage you in conversation about this, as well as many other Christian matters. When I am feeling confident enough, I will start a blog here. The blog will be from the perspective of a wounded soldier, but I also hope to demonstrate that I am not obsessed with mental illness by discussing other poignant issues relevant to today's Christian.

In His Love,

Larry

Ambassador for Christ 

Larry, Kathy, Margaret and David,

Please let be begin by apologizing for offending or hurting a fellow brother/or/sister in Christ.

I am a very bold but caring person, whose life is not perfect by no means....for which I too have learned some very deep lessons...ones that whenever I and my family got through them realized how very important it is to be completely honest with people.  To stand firm in His Truth because we are worthless without Him!   I believe with all my heart that each one of us have different types of crosses to bare and it's only by Christ's Love & Strength that we can get through each day.  Please, Larry let me share mine with you ....I hope it will encourage you in some way!  I also believe that God places people in our pathes "for a reason" to share our life experiences solely to help His children!  

You do not know me or I you but that doesn't mean, we can't lift each other up in prayer, or give each other and encouraging word....but I also believe that He requires us to hold each other...Christs' children accountable.

I lost my Mom 3 years ago this past August 17th to Non-Hodgskins Lymphoma, she was my spiritual prayer warrior, she was young and full of love for her Lord...she was our rock!   But her life was for from perfect, meaning that Christ allowed her life to be tested time and time again...for which I oftened asked Him...

Why ?  When I was 16yrs old ...my mom was strickened with a very rare paralysis called Guillain Barre Syndrome...she was paralyzed from the neck down. At the time the medical field had only to find that the majority of patients were permanently crippled.  She was too  young and full of life for this...In the cloud of darkness that hung over my head...I would always wonder why. On the other hand my mother was in Houston Methodist defying all odds, all the while praising her Lord through all the horrifying test...for you see although her body was paralyzed she could feel everything during all the nerve tests.  The expected recovery time would take 2 years... My mom however with the help of The Lord Jesus Christ was home in 2 1/2 Months in a wheelchair but could walk with the assistance of a walker and in no time she was fully recovered.  Life was good so we thought but the next few years posed another problem; mom wasn't herself...didn't want to be alone...scared to be alone with her children...couldn't focus....severe depression set in....confusion...withdrawal a list of things began to surface.  We prayed, everyone prayed, the church was "SO" there for their prayer warrior and then they were so not. (It seemed that because they didn't understand...they shout us out...oh yes they would pat us on the back or give us a hug and promised to pray..but)  She wasn't a quick fix...(there must be unconfessed sin) she began doubting her salvation, her faith - but she never doubted her Savior ...she just felt so unworthy to be helped by anyone - even more so by The Almighty.   She was in an out of all our area hospitals, Houstons hospital to no aveal...   My mother was diagnosised with having a chemical imbalanced. She was over-medicated, over electric shocked until they killed her...then brought her back. .they all concluded that there was no hope and stuck her in the state hospital.     Well There Was Hope, it's called "Nature Pathic Doctors" our family learned of a clinic in Oklahoma that would detoxify your system by putting all their patients on fresh and raw vegetables and only natural vitamins.   They used pressure point holding and reflexology to treat her.  And in 2 1/2 years she came back healthier than she ever had been...and completely healed!!!  No More Chemical Imbalance!!!  

Again, we felt everythings OK... we are home free...  I felt, Mom had done her duty...she was my spiritual rock... I looked to her  for spiritual guidance ...which she loved to share with everyone...not for boasting but to simple share what Christ had done in her life...and how much He loved each of us.    

Well, 14 years after her first encounter with Gillian Barre Syndrome, she is stricken with it again, and again she defined all odds.   Full recovery.... So much stronger in her faith!!!

Then December 2003 came when she was diagnosised with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma...hey piece of cake...we all hunkered down in deep prayer.  She immediately got into treatment... she began her nature pathic treatment again( for which she had not been faithful )  and to the doctor's surprise her lymphoids were shrinking... But the chemo treatments were taking a toll on her body...and she became weaker and weaker and for the 1st time in my life I realized that I could possibly lose my MOM.   Fear set in...I prayed...I read...I searched....I begged....I was quite...THERE WAS SILENCE!!!!  So I watched and continued on!  Then Tuesday, August 17th 2:43pm came when I witnessed the very thing I so had prayed would not happen. 

My prayer life was all about Christ giving us a Miracle...and that he did...for HE, Jesus Christ was glorified by her lifes statemony and by her death...how can I say that...there wasn't a day that went by that she didn't share her faith.   Encouraged her children...through this time we regrouped as a family...dug in deep to HIM!   That's exactly what HE WANTED!   Whatever it takes to draw us back to HIM...is HIS PLAN!!!  Mom was simply a willing servant, she wanted to be used by HIM for HIM and would do it again knowing that her whole family came together to be grounded in HIM!!! FOR US TO EXPERIENCE HIM IS HIS WILL FOR OUR LIVES!!!   And We Did!

As my littlest one once replied to a statement that we often said:  We prayed for Christ to heal Mom.....and my daughter said:   HE DID MOMMY.... out of the mouths of babes!

As for my church, it's still my church and has been since the day I was born.  The tensions are still their...but I continue on in HIM/with Forgiveness and I pray you can too!  

His Humble Servant,

Annette 

Mrs. Annette.
                  you have come through a lot with help from Jesus and your mum too.
He said "in this world we will have tribulation but be of good cheer I have overcome the
world"...... you and your mum are proof of that!!
May HE cotinue to bless you and your family with HIS richness and surround you all
with HIS SHALOM.
Margaret

Dear Mrs. Annette
You did not offend me nor hurt me but thank you for offering that. 
I preach inclusiveness of all because that's what I see in Christ's words and deeds. I preach inclusion of women, of gays, of those healed and unhealed, hurting and strong, sinner and saved, black, white, yellow, brown and freckled (as I am.)  I also recognize that some of my brothers and sisters in Christ do not agree with this.  Some of us do not recognize and thus, I believe, in embarrassment which sometimes comes out as anger, do not know how to approach or talk to someone different from ourselves.
My thoughts are that, just as we all have gifts from God,  we are all different, that we all have afflictions (even Paul, look at his "Thorn in his flesh.") 
You know that Martin Luther King, Jr. said that the most segregated place is America is church on Sunday morning.  I still see that even today in modern, 21st America.
I've met, and still meet, seemingly "holier than thou" Christians.  But I recognize their afflictions, too, just I recognize yours, Larry's, mine.
Ignorance is not bliss!
The cure is prayer and study of God's word.
But sometimes prayer leads one to a doctor that will do God's bidding and effect a cure, known or unknown by the doctor.
Love
David

Kathy (and all) as promised, here's a very short blog on "Inclusiveness in the church."
I looked up the definition of "Include" and found this; "To take in or comprise as part of a whole."  And that got me to thinking that unless we following Christ and the Bible and take in or comprise every one, we as a church are not whole, not complete.  If there is one person left out, for whatever reason, good or not so good, we are not complete.  Since God and Jesus Christ are perfect, our church should also be perfect.  And a church, indeed anything, is not perfect unless it is complete.
To some examples; in the OT, the book of Ruth.  The story -all of these stories will be BRIEF- is that a Moabite woman, Ruth, followed Naomi, her Mother-in-law, the Mother of her dead husband- to Israel and there met and married Boaz.  They became the great-grandparents of King David, who produced the line for Jesus.  Moabites, I might add, were almost constantly at war with Israel, so there was no love lost between the two nations.  And yet, she asked and Israel included Ruth. So, no outsider being included, no Jesus.
Next we find Jesus in John 5 healing a man who had waited by the pool, with healing waters, in Jerusalem.  The man couldn't walk, thus couldn't get down to the pool and no one would carry him.  Jesus, whom the man did not know, came along and cured him (included him back into society.)

In Mark 5:25 Jesus cures a woman who had had a period for many years -thus making her an outcast in society.  She grasps Jesus' hem and he cures her (thus including her back into society.)

in Mark 10:46-52 Jesus gives sight back to a blind man thus including him back into society: "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” 48Many sternly ordered him to be quiet, but he cried out even more loudly, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 

Of course there is Jesus curing the leper -Matthew 8:2 e.g., and in those days -and even up until about 40 years ago- lepers lived in "colonies" segregated from society and could not even be touched for fear of spreading the disease to society.

Jesus never spoke about homosexuality -today's lepers, in a sense- but his curing of both men and women -He made Mary the first evangelist, thus the importance of women teaching or telling men seemed important to Jesus, even if the Baptists of today disagree.  The God of the OT cries for justice from society.  Jesus cries for justice from today's society.  The first step in a just society is to include everyone in it's benefits and the Church should be the first place of inclusion not the last!  Just as God's love for us, all of us, is boundless, so should our efforts to include everyone be boundless.

I'm sure you could add more instances and mount a better argument for inclusion of all, but here is my small plea for us to follow Jesus Christ and include our brothers and sisters, all of them no matter what afflictions they bring, for we all are afflicted in one way or another.  For the church, and us, to be complete, all should be with us at the table of communion of the Holy Spirit of Christ's love.

Love
David

Mrs. Annette, I recorded my sermon today for broadcast Sunday.  Don't forget www.KKGMam.com at 12:30pm Sunday afternoon central time on the internet (you won't get the signal all the way from Dallas/Fort Worth to Lake Charles.)  And be sure and tell Aunt Suzy that I mention Greg and her in our prayers.  Although I'm not a Cajun, while I was a country music dj on WBAP in Fort Worth, that signal DID reach out to Thibidioux, La and I'd get request calls from there.  So, in self defense, I learned the cajun yell......aaaaaaaayyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeee!  It was all I could do today in the recording studio to refrain from doing a cajun yell, but I decided, at my age and preaching and all that perhaps I shouldn't.   Anyway give it a listen Sunday.
And Kathy my sermon goes along with the title of this blog, "Ignorance is bliss?"  My main topic was that God was more than the Bible and many people who know the Bible backwards and forwards have yet to find the love of God in their hearts and souls.  I cite the excluders that I keep talking about, those that forget Christ's command to us to "love one another" and they go ahead and keep women down and homosexuals and lesbians out of church and fight every step of the way on civil and equal rights for all.
I'm not "popular" preaching in conservative circles, but unlike when I was a dj, I'm not in this for "popularity."  For the sake of Christ I pay a price.  It fills my heart with joy.
Love
David
www.JesusChristSaid.com

Thanks, Ben!  I agree with you about the title.  I have never been happy with it, but I never changed it because I never thought of an alternative that made me say "yes, that's it!"  But you are certainly correct that the Bible does guide.

Thank you, Patrick.  I think this is one of the largest blind spots in today's Christian culture, and as you say, it's a difficult one . . .