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| FREEDOM...Free from___ or Free for___? |
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We all enjoy and desire freedom - WHY? What is our motive? How do we view freedom? Mike gave us a wonderful blog What if free really meant free. Why do we want to be free? Is it so we can be "free" FROM something..like sin?
Why did God send Jesus? Is the goal to be sinless? What is God's heart? What was it about David that made Him say, "a man after my own heart?" Was David free FROM sin? What man was/is totally free FROM sin? Was Jesus, son of man free FROM sin? Yes! But He had a purpose FOR being sinless! It was to fulfill/accomplish God's heart desire and it was FOR this reason in which He sent Jesus.
Motive is what reveals our hearts. It is the word of God (even God's law) that cuts deep, and eventually exposes the thoughts and intents of our heart (Heb. 4:12). Did God send Jesus just so we can go to heaven? If heaven is our goal, then in actuality, are we not seeking to be free FROM hell? We must admit, apart from God (and our relationship with Abba), that is our destiny. Is that the ultimate purpose of man..save him FROM hell?
We could say from God's perspective, His purpose is to save us FROM something..save us FROM ourselves, unto or FOR Himself! Let's not stop there. His purpose is to further save us FOR His heart's desire, which is to have an intimate relationship with Him.
God had a purpose and He knew the end from the beginning. Nothing has or will thwart His purpose (not sin or the gates of hell). His heart's desire is not to just save us FROM___but to draw us and bring us into something FOR Himself - something He desired and longed FOR before the foundations of the world. Yet it is not just something FOR Himself, but something FOR us also - that WE (Father, Son and those who believe) may be one. That WE may all enjoy the same communion and oneness (fellership) that the Son and Father have..that THEY ALL may be one (Jn. 17)!! We have been set free FOR God's heart desire (not ours).
How differently freedom is seen from God's viewpoint. How do we view freedom?
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See, I'm still asking questions :). |
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Hi Charlie, good to see you posting again, I haven't seen anything in a while. Hope all is well. Freedom is all inclusive, but for most of us, I think we experience it incrementally as we learn how to live and express ourselves in this new element. At first it does come in being released from something that once laid claim to us, then it grows into being released to something that desires us, and finally it comes in being something that we realized we were destined to be from the beginning of time. ugh... Sorry, I'm very tired and haven't clearly thought out my response. I hope you can make sense of it somehow, hahaha. Hey Charlie, call me Monday if you get time. Jonathan |
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Hey bro, you make a great point! Our entire walk with the Lord is progressive and very incremental. That's life!
We have been born again and now we have a NEW life, eternal life, spiritual life - so we are beginning anew. As we grow in the Lord, we should change our viewpoints and actions as the Spirit of God transforms us and our minds continue to be renewed (to think and reflect God's nature) as we live out each new day.
That is what relationships are all about. Learning, adjusting, and enjoying not only the Person/persons with whom we have intimate relationships, but also enjoying the process as we live, learn, adjust and reflect.
We are all still learning about this new freedom in Christ. How wonderful that we can live by God's life now and learn together.
Now *THAT* is church (ekklesia)!! |
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R |
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August 26, 2007 at 7:26am |
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Hey Charlie,
When I read John, and Jesus says, "the Truth will set you free," the context is all about sin. So has He and is it, doing it's job, for most of us? Is it being taught that it can... completely?
Dead to sin?
I've been reading these kinds of materials (the books listed on my home page), for about 15 years now... and when I read blogs today; many of them, do not fit into the New Man New Creation doctrine. I don't know if you've read this article, but it touches on how most do not believe or concentrate on the fact that we are New creations in Christ, right now. If the Truth hasn't and isn't setting us completely free from sin, then we are not believing right (IMEO -(experienced).
DO WE BELIEVE WHO WE ARE? Bless you, R... |
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R, I am in full agreement with you that we ARE (now) a new creation, formed by God by the Breathing (Spirit) in of His eternal life in our spirit. My questions center around WHY? God has an ultimate intention in all this. It is possible that we could still fall short of His ultimate intention by being complacent with our new found freedom?
Is escaping hell or being sinless God's ultimate intention? Many Christians are content with these wonderful realities of being free in Christ. Jesus paid the price, ONCE for ALL. God has settled the sin question. WE have been set free! But set free FOR what? So we can go to heaven? Is that the goal? Do we need to gain more knowledge, wisdom, more teaching, more spiritual gifts, financial blessings, etc? Those are all things for US! What about God?
This is the crux of my questionings. |
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R |
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August 26, 2007 at 12:32pm |
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Hey Charlie, Q1."Is it possible that we could still fall short of His ultimate intention by being complacent with our new found freedom?" R1. I think so, that's why there is some talk of rewards/and losing them. But the good news is: there is no condemnation, regardless.
Q2. "Is escaping hell or being sinless God's ultimate intention?" R2. No, I think God's ultimate intention is to manifest His Life through these mortal bodies; that He has purchased, with the blood of His Son (Rom.8:11, 1 Cor.6:19,20 and 2 Cor.4:7-11). This is what my readings and interactions with God has lead to, but not many people/writers seem to agree with it. So, I am back to, "we all know in part."
Bless you, R...
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I agree that possibly in the "Kingdom Age" some may suffer loss. I also agree that ultimately all those who belong who belong to Christ will be welcomed in to New Jerusalem. But why should we suffer loss while grace is here to draw us closer to the Lord in an intimate relationship with Him and others now?
Man looks upon the outward, but God sees the heart. I don't believe our sins are factored in since Jesus paid the price to purchase us unto Himself and God. The hardness of man's heart may bring about the discipline of the Lord, but we have the opportunity to turn to Him anytime. |
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R |
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August 26, 2007 at 6:11pm |
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Me thinkest we misunderstand one another a bit. - But now onward to the next point of interest. A. Isn't all suffering due to some kind of loss? Hey Charlie... you asked, "but why should we suffer loss while grace is here to draw us closer to the Lord in an intimate relationship with Him and others now? All I know is, Paul said that he suffered loss in Phil 3:8 and I know we suffer the loss of many things as well.
Now, we might instantly turn to the Lord to offset the loss, but the fact that we suffered is none the less true, unless I'm misunderstanding your point.
Also, I originaly was referring to 1 Cor.3:15, which to me talks about the loss that people will endure because their work was done without God, yet they believed it to be in line with Him at the time.
And then there is 2 Tim.3:12 that says, "Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution."
So I pose the question back to the listening audience again, "isn't all suffering due to some kind of loss?"
I'll quit now with these words from those great theologians, Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, "I will now proceed to tangle up the entire area."
Peace, R...
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| Bro Jack, you are way over my head! I think I understand what you are saying about the END of self..that truly is a new beginning for us! I also do agree with your final statement: "Oh, the wonder of it all!" |
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| Jack, have you heard the term TMI? It stands for T oo M uch I nformation (to assimilate). "Hath thy great knowledge mad thee mad?" {wink}...but I do think we need to talk :). Good to have you as a friend bro. |
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Cameron |
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September 11, 2007 at 11:02pm |
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Charlie,
I think, free from self, and free to love. It is religion that needs to be saved, from hypocrisy, from shallowness, from prejudice. In so many ways, religion, in whatever guise it takes, is the diametric opposite of the heart, life and death of Christ. This sounds like I have an axe to grind, but not really, because this begins with me.
Many stop at the overcoming of the flesh, the outward man, but leaving the soul untouched. It is a thing far more reaching, to allow God to deal with the soul. This is an experience that many, maybe most will not allow, thereby the self is still intact. It is only the Lord who can do this, but we can hinder or disallow it. What if the Lord calls us to lose all we have built? Will we allow it?
What then, is the final outcome if the soul is dealt with? If it is humbled under the mighty hand of God? I would hope that it is loving union with the Father. Then the love of God for this suffering world can be channeled through us, unhindered and within the pneuma (breath of God). It becomes a most natural thing and a place where a man/woman can walk unemcumbered by doctrines, dogma or anything structured.
Love is our greatest quest, love is never wrong, never sinful, only the lack of it.
Cameron. |
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Thanks Jack and Cameron for replies. I had meant to reply back to you Jack..but must have gotten distracted..travel can do that ya know :).
Once more Jack ya got me on words. I had never heard about gagal, but I can certainly relate to the cycle of events. I believe God wants that cycle to be more like a spiral, each completed lap is a bit shorter, the circle tightens and each cycle draws us deeper into the Center..which most certainly isn't us! Thanks again Jack.
Cameron you bring up a good point. I realize it's not as easy to sum it up in ...from and ...for. A lot of what I write has come from periods of quietness and contemplating (musing). If we just went with that, we could easily become too introspective and deceived. This is why we so desperately need Christ's body and the function of each living member to balance us. I can't tell how many times friends on MyChurch do that often without knowing.
From the spiral image above, I can see that tightening spiral also becoming the result of the Spirit's transforming working saving us FROM self (expressed in our soul) and more into Christ, our center.
I once belonged to a group of Christians that taught we need to "lose our soul" in order to "save" it. I can see where thought comes from and does have some validity; however I also believe the soul is the major component of who we are, our temperment, personality, perhaps even DNA make up to some extent. Who we are is how God made us. God uses that, but wants to transform the selfish usage of it and redirect it to Himself.
Gotta go..late now |
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Gary |
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September 13, 2007 at 7:38pm |
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All,
I've enjoyed this conversation on freedom. Back in the early 70's I came across a book called Escape From Freedom, by Erick Fromm. The book put me on a train of thought that, to this day helps me with "entanglements" that restrict the freedom and glorious liberty God has for me.
I think this conversation, in some ways, goes back to the Two Trees in the garden of Eden. The Tree of Life oroduces Life, Freedom, Liberty. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil produces restriction, confinement and entanglement. Blessings to you. gq |
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Gary! It's been too long bro. Thanks for bringing up the 2 trees. You are right on! Almost everything in this Christian journey goes back to the garden doesn't it? I believe the K tree is a declaration of DEpendence and the L tree is the declaration of INdependence. God's ultimate intention for us is definitely found in that L tree.
Jack, you've done it again bro :). I'll have to cogitate on the female (soul) thang. Here's what I find interesting: male AND female, created He THEM. God's heart desire is to bring them into oneness. Isn't it also interesting that woman was taken OUT of Adam? Hmmm? Then in Gen.2:24 it says:
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
What's that all about? Who had been married before this? Who was Adam's father & mother?
My bro R, I have done you a great disservice. I did miss your point but I would invite you to write one more time and 'splain a bit more about suffering and loss and how it relates to "rewards and losing them?"
I had kinda figured this dicussion had fizzled out so I quit checking in as much. My bad R :(. |
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OOOPS! Boy, did I make a boo-boo!! What I meant to say is just the opposite about the 2 trees.
THIS IS WHAT I MEANT TO SAY:
I believe the K tree is a declaration of INdependence and the L tree is the declaration of DEpendence on God and living by His life. Yeah, that's it! |
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| Here ya go Jack: cogitate - consider carefully and deeply reflect upon; turn over in one's mind |
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