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| JUST WHAT OR WHO IS CHURCH? |
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The question I am asked the most is: "where do you go to church?" I'd like for us to consider for a moment the word "church" here as a verb rather than a noun. That question would take on a whole NEW meaning if someone was asking “where do you go to (BE) church? Then we could suggest a place (not limited to a building). But most are wanting to know what “church” do you belong to? That is a very hard question to answer in a sentence or two (or even in a lifetime). Is there more than one?
So, from the shelf of : "Inquiring minds would like to know," I offer this blog hoping it will generate more fellership and exchange among the saints on MyChurch (and elsewhere). I’d love to hear your viewpoint as well.
CHARLIE'S VIEWPOINT OF CHURCH as of September 9, 2007 (subject to change anytime)
The "church" is not MANmade, nor under man's control or design. I don't believe there is a "pattern" for what we call church. It's saints who are living out an intimate relationship with the Lord personally. Each individual relationship with God is as unique as each human is, down to the hairs of our heads, finger prints and DNA -not one is the same. Out of our relationship - love/worship with God (vertical fellership) we discover others who have found the Lord and as we interrelate through His life with such saints (horizontal fellership), we glorify God and encourage one another.
Then as we go through our day to day living, we live out this relationship among others (strangers, neighbors, friends, workers, students, family, etc.) in such a way that they see God in us. As we get to know the Lord more intimately, we begin to think as He thinks, feel as He feels, and act/respond toward others according to God's nature and how He has related to us. There is no set pattern for that either. God's nature will NEVER change, but our relationship and interaction with Him will always be according to our circumstances and understanding at that time. God always meets us right where we are, but He doesn't want us to remain there. Our next encounter with Him will (hopefully) be entirely different. That is the dynamic of the Spirit (wind blowing) functioning in us as He wills.
If we are growing in that (vertical) relationship, we will change our views and understanding with God as we participate in His divine nature (II Pet. 1:4) and become more like Him. I believe this is the description of what the Bible calls "transformation." (Rom. 12:2) Simply put, we behold and then reflect (to others) what we beheld, transforming us from glory to glory by the operation of God's Spirit working in us. (II Cor. 3:18)
Gathering with saints, just enhances our learning and hunger for God. We come together to share our journey and learn from one another. Seeing and learning of the same Spirit working in us and others is what encourages us and glorfies the Lord. I believe this is Christ's body in action (church as a verb). Some call it "church." If this is what we are living, how can we say we are going or must go to (a) church? Church is not a place, it is a state of being which God has wrought in us that should be changing from glory to glory by the Lord Spirit.
Why do so many saints feel a need to denominate ourselves from one another? God's Spirit is our oneness! Shouldn't that be the only criteria we have for "fellership" one with another?
more later (perhaps) |
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| To add a comment to "JUST WHAT OR WHO IS CHURCH?" |
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| September 09, 2007 |
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Jack, I've heard of the word "kirke" but never any of that Greek Mythology stuff. I have known a few women that have turned me into an animal though <Big Grin>!
Alice says howdy |
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| September 10, 2007 |
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Hey Jack, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Jn.4:23-24. I've written on this b4 click here . It would be good to get another viewpoint. |
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| September 11, 2007 |
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This is exactly what we are discussing now on Soozanne's blog, "Too Much Worship? Worship is the living sacrifice that we live daily. I'm not sure we can decide when and how we worship. It seems to me worship happens. It is a direct response between God and us in spirit.
This much I know, in my life most of my "worship moments" HAPPEN when I see God. It can happen anytime or any place and in a multitude of ways. It can happen reading, singing, sitting in silence, in a dream, on a plane, in a bank line, driving, in the bathroom, when I see a sunset set, a newborn, an act of kindness, observing nature, etc., etc.
I believe that is why Jesus said it's not "on this mountain" or another. It's a spiritual encounter between us and God and the Father likes it so much, He is actively seeking such worshippers that acknowledge Him in their daily living (no matter when or where).
Sometimes I may decide to sing or pick up a guitar and worship God, but worship doesn't happen until God shows up. It's an intimate communion that springs forth from the heart. Sometimes my heart is troubled, distracted or cold. But when God comes in..without any effort or will power of my own..I find myself worshipping.
Worship is much more than going to a "worship service." I love gathering with saints and enjoying the Lord together, but some times it is just an outward ritual until God is manifested and acknowleged within. That's why I believe Jesus said worship MUST be in spirit and truth (reality). God is spirit; God is eternal. He is not limited to time and space. To me "in spirit" is when we are in communion Spirit to spirit.
6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
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| September 14, 2007 |
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Now I definitely feel like the new kid on the block. Vicki and I have been discussing these very issues for 10 years now, every since we met and began discussing spiritual matters. We met in a church group here in Houston, and we hit it off right away. Jack, your writings on the 'When you...' could easily become a book! Charlie, your consistent and ongoing challenge of the status quo could easily become a book too! Anyway, I don't have much of a comment to leave, but wanted to let you both know I'm reading and listening. Keep up the good work. Jonathan |
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| September 18, 2007 |
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I'm way behind on checking in. I had a job in OK cancelled yesterday, so I have some time finally to catch up.
Good to hear from you Jonathan (and Vicki). I believe our lives are a book. I'm wondering when it says in Rev. that "books" were opened along with the Book of Life, that those books are "our life books." Some folks have just a few short chapters, some may have a few long chapters, but if God is living in your life, I think we have a lot of short chapters. There is so much we need to learn and experience of God, and each one is new chapter. |
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| September 18, 2007 |
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Hi Charlie
"What is the church?" A good question. This term; "personal relationship with Jesus" is not really implied in the scriptures, but rather, as each member being a part of a whole body. Perhaps we should ask then; "what is the body?" It is corporate..
Ok, I don't want to use scriptures here, but really I can only draw from my own experience with any integrity. I have been involved in the past, with quite a diverse array of gatherings, some in buildings with pulpits, some in houses in informality and some on the internet. I guess in my own way, because they all had the label of church, I expected them to be perfect, and loving, alas, this was not always the case, why? Because people are people and folks are just doing the best they can, much like myself. I became bitter for a while but then began to realize that we are all, in our own way, desiring to follow the ONE who IS perfect, Christ Jesus and to be conformed to His image.
Now, He is more than a Head, He has a body and it seems to be in the Spirit. Regardless of how we meet, we touch that body at certain times and at certain times, we don't. It seems to me that when we do, the rapture is now, as well as future tense in time space.
The point is, it is all in the Spirit as we are drawn up nigh unto Him. We are tested and tried in the refining fires that we can know this, even without the pleasurable feelings of the soul. This always most certainly bypasses the flesh and the ego and leaves us in a place of wonder and awe that such a Holy God would want to sit with sinful people such as us. This can only result in greater love for the Father and a huge appreciation of the blood of Christ that makes this possible.
I have know the Lord and His body in each different situation I have been in, even where there has been gross error, because God is bigger than our error and our man made walls of separation. He is bigger than our disputes over scripture and our likes and dislikes and He is bigger than our ministries.
In that place of touching His body, all of those things fade away into insignificance. This is the body. In that place, we can rest in peace and enjoy Him and each other, and in place of wranglings about the husk, our love for our brethren bursts forth out of our chests. May we all touch the body today.
Bless you all
Cam. |
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| September 20, 2007 |
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Cam wrote: "Now, He is more than a Head, He has a body and it seems to be in the Spirit. Regardless of how we meet, we touch that body at certain times and at certain times, we don't. It seems to me that when we do, the rapture is now, as well as future tense in time space."
12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
This is a good point..He IS more than the Head of the body. He IS also the body, made up of many memembers. I don't believe that means that all denominations, Non or UNdenominations or any other divisive name or group are what make up the body of Christ - NO! The body of Christ is made up of EACH member (all the members in oneness) via His Spirit: (this) is also the Christ.
What say ye saints? Yea or nay?
PS - I have more to reply to regarding this Cam |
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| May 02, 2008 |
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A few months ago I was preparing to attend a home schoolers pic nic. I knew I'd be meeting lots of moms and I knew I would be asked that same old question, "Where do you go to church?" People ask this because I can't help but talk about the Lord when we meet so they assume I am a traditional church/club goer. I Have dreaded the church question in the past and at times I've gotten flustered and sputtered out some pretty dumb answers instead of what I really meant! Ha! (Boldness in person is not one of my characteristics!) Well, I didn't want that to happen at the picnic so I asked the Lord what I should say when asked the infamous question. (What a novel idea, eh?) Well, Into my spirit I heard Him say, "Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name." Great! Simple! Easy! Ha! So, that's what I said when asked at the picnic, "Where do you go to church?"
Now, did that mom understand my answer? Well, at the time it was obvious that she did not. I was tempted to sputter and give some dumb answers to try to clarify what the lord gave me but I was just still and I knew that He was God. Understanding is a work of the Holy Spirit, anyway. Imparting understanding is not my work unless I'm told to speak His words and He uses them... |
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