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| Call and Response |
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My small group is studying 2 Peter together, and we had a discussion this week about free will and election. Here are some more of my thoughts based on that discussion. Peter urges us to be all the more eager to make our calling and election sure. Another translation NASB has it "be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you" There are numerous other passages of scripture that refer to calling or chosen, or the elect. To be called, elected, and chosen by the God of the universe, yet have the free will to choose to respond or not to respond to this calling, election, and choosing is one of the greatest mysteries and debates in Christianity. Churches have split denominations have formed because of this very issue. The problem with debating this doctrine as many of our brothers and sisters from years gone by have found is that usually only division occurs and in most cases the Church suffers. However, I do believe there is a right doctrine about this subject, but I am not sure that we (womankind/mankind) can totally grasp it. Clearly, the Bible teaches about election, calling, and choosing of believers, but it also teaches about our free will to choose. And I think it is healthy for us to discuss the implications of these teachings both in our lives and in the lives of all human beings. I just don't want the debate to become sour and divisive. We can make attempts to express the "right" doctrine in writing as many great theologians have already done.
Check out this link for one theologians opinion:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/definiteredemption.html
However, what can be very beneficial to all is sharing our own personal experiences of the calling, election, and choosing of God and our response to it. We all have a similar yet different story in this regard. And that is really the point of my blog. Please take some time to think about how God called you and how you responded. Was it a process or instantaneous? What were the circumstances in your life at the time or times? I would love to hear how each of you experienced this.
Some of you know my story, God called me several times in High School, and I responded everytime, but it wasn't til the third or fourth time that the call and response took lasting effect in my life. I am not smarter than the next guy, and if I have been presented with similar evidence regarding Jesus Christ as the next guy, and I respond in faith to it and the next guy does not, my only explanation for it is God's grace not my faith or intelligence. Ultimately, I believe that is the election, choosing or calling of God, the supernatural spiritual power or force that allowed me to respond in faith. That is the paradox of free will and God's election/choosing/calling. A call can happen without a response, but a response cannot happen without there first being a call. The response is a choice, but my experience shows me that the ability to choose and respond is a gift from God (Ephesians 2: 8,9). Ultimately, God gets all the credit for my faith, my choosing, and my salvation. My prayer for us is that we will individually, in our heads, in our hearts, in our innermost beings, and in the little hidden closets of our souls begin to experience for the first time or continually experience in increasing measure the love of God and his calling on our lives. And that this experience will continually result in a response from us of love, joy and thanksgiving because of our good fortune to be chosen, elected, and called by God and given the ability to respond in faith. |
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| To add a comment to "Call and Response" |
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| January 14, 2007 |
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| you say, God's election vs freewill is one of the greatest mysteries. think outside the box. we are sure of God's supreme power. so where then is the flaw? in our thinking about free will? obviously. Hint: there is no free will.
i know you have been taught there is. so now you can FIGHT to believe the lie you have been told by them. or you could ask GOD and say, God could she possible be correct that there is no free will?
if you are HIS, He will tell you the truth. if not, you will continue believing the lies because it is what you were made to do.
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| January 14, 2007 |
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| My experience is somewhat like yours, yet I can now remember, one time asking God to let me know He was real, when I was a small boy. This in retrospect explains alot as to why I escaped many events, because the hound of Heaven was after me. I believe (now), He was wooing me to Himself and keeping me away from trouble.
The rest is similar to your's, God called me several times, I responded somewhat, but it wasn't until the third or fourth time that the call and response took lasting effect.
Now to touch on 2 Peter. In the daily experience of "walking in the Spirit," God gives ample proofs of His speaking to us and leading us. Yet we must have some expectation that He will do this. This (in my opinion), makes our calling and election sure.
I am not interested in the free will debate, but I am interested in "making my calling and election sure."
Another angle: Peter is directing his comments to his countrymen (the Jews) only. He wants to admonish them to keep their election sure. Maybe he is meaning to caution them, not to rely on ancestory but to accept Christ and to begin to walk in the Spirit (be born again)?
Blessings
homeprospects@yahoo.com
New Model Church - Denver CO |
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| January 14, 2007 |
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| I ran from God for 29 years. I was saved on Father’s Day 2003. I felt drawn several times, but never acted on any of it.
Let me “encourage” you to be careful when exploring this Calvinist vs Arminianism debate. No where in our Bible does it say you must be one or the other. The Calvinist side teaching that one must be of the elect to be saved. I would submit to you that you can be both.
To say that God doesn’t know who will choose salvation denies His omniscience. At the same time, there are too many whoevers in the Bible to say salvation isn’t available to all. Consider:
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
I am thankful that I am one of the “whoevers.” I am also thankful I am one of the elect. I once heard it described this way:
When we get to Heaven there will be a sign above the Pearly Gate that reads, “Whosoever will.” Once we enter in and can look back out of Heaven, there will be one that reads, “The Elect.”
Bro. Chris
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| January 20, 2007 |
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| I've been thinking a lot about this over the past week (which is why I first starred your blog, to help bookmark it for later :). In recalling some major events that gave me clarity on who God is in my life, I have to say that it wouldn't have happened without the urging and support of sisters around me at the time.
Most of my friends know my story because, well.. they're a big part of it. I know my calling now and my identity is completely shaped by it. However during some powerful times in college, it was really the intense prayer and setting that God placed me in that really spoke truth and helped me to respond in faith. This is all to say that my experience of responding came not only from me.. but also from my sisters who were there with me (and who I continue to walk together with in our journey of faith today).
Btw, kudos to you jhop for starring your own blog ;P
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| January 23, 2007 |
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| I starred it on accident and don't know how to unstar it!!! |
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| January 23, 2007 |
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| Haha! Yea, right.. you know you wanted to star it :) |
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| January 24, 2007 |
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| Shux, I went to click the star b4 I sent and lost what I wrote! I can't remember what I said, but it was good ;). That didn't happen by my free will..hmmm or did it?
Our walk with God is an adventure, which means that I don't always know what's going on. It keeps us close to the One who does know. I think that's His plan :).
Keep on questioning, wondering and learning. In doing so you will make your calling sure. God wants us to pursue His heart like David did. We'll blow it alot. We'll misunderstand, misapply, misinterpret and just plain miss the mark (sin). But God has got it covered (under Jesus' blood).
Enjoy the adventure and keep the fellership flowing!
Charlie |
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| January 26, 2007 |
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| I know sometimes it is hard to detect tone in letters, so please know that this is sent in a spirit of love....When I first got saved this topic did seem like a "mystery" to me, but when I but aside all of my pre-conceived ideas and what I have been taught, I found that God's Word really is clear. My challenge to you would be for you to pray and ask the Lord to show you the truth from His Word regarding this issue, and to set aside what you have learned from man. I agree that we should not argue over God's Word, but I do feel that we should be able to have intelligent conversations that would cause us to grow. We must also never forget that we are human and prone to being wrong. I love to have Biblical conversations with anyone who is interested, as long as it doesn't go into an argument. That is the point when I say, let's change the subject. Believing God's truth about election has been a real eye-opener for me. After God revealed this to me, His Word all pieced together and made perfect sense. As you said, even our very faith to believe, is a gift from God. |
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| January 29, 2007 |
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| We all have steps we have to take and we have to take them one step at a time, I hope this might help. Your Brother in Christ, Gordon
First Things First
According to Matt.7v21, Jesus affirms that only those who do the will of God will be saved. So as much as this is true and as much as God has ordained some things to be first, then we must abide by this ruling. Therefore, the purpose of this writing will be to set forth some of the things which I believe God has said must come first.
(ONE) - If I understand what is taught in Matt.28v18-20, well a person must first be taught and then baptized. Likewise in the example of baptism, we find the people were first taught and then baptized (Acts Chapter 2,8,10,16 and 19). This no doubt accounts for the Biblical absence of any example of the unaccountable being baptized.
(TWO) - As from Heb.11v6 and John 3v36, if the alien sinner is to be saved, he must believe that God is and that Jesus is his Son. But others teach that this belief is to come from the hearing of God’s word
(Romans 10v13-17, John 20v30, Acts 2v8,10,and 16).
Yes these scriptures say that the faith which the Lord demands is produced by hearing the undeniable evidence found in his word.
However, my readers, those who do not believe in the Bible will not by this evidence become believers in God and his Son Jesus.
Then too, some who believe in the Bible have a faith that is based on no greater evidence than that which persuaded them (as children) to believe in Santa Clause.
So before we begin with teaching an alien sinner what the Bible says he or she must do to be saved, let us first find out if his or her faith is based on the evidence found in the Bible. If so, great; but if not, then let us first teach them that portion of God’s word.
Romans 10v17 and John 20v30 do not say faith comes from hearing the words of your parents. No, they say faith comes from hearing the word of God.
(THREE) - There are scriptures through which God has commanded all of us his people to obey the elders of the church (Heb. 13v17), our employers (Eph. 6v5), and all the laws of our civil government (Romans 13v1-5, 1st Peter 2v13-14).
There are other scriptures through which he teaches wives to be in subjection unto their husbands (Eph. 6v1). Must we obey these commandments in order to be saved ?
Yes, James teaches that to disobey one is to disobey all (James 2v8-12). However, here again we must allow first things to be first. Yes, before we submit to the will of any of the above, we must first determine if it is in harmony with God’s will (Matt.10v37, Acts 4 v19). We can never under any circumstances disobey God, in order to obey him.
(FOUR) - When we sin, a sin which involves only God and ourselves, we may receive forgiveness by repenting and praying unto him (Acts 8v22). But when we sin against another person, as well as God, then we must first be reconciled to the other person before we go to God (Matt.5v23-24).
There has been times when brethren and sisters, who after taking part in the worship service, come down and confess they have sinned against the church. To do this is to put the cart before the horse. God’s rule is that we first be reconciled unto those who have aught against us.
I think that the preceding’s should be for the congregation to extend an invitation before and after the worship service. The one before the worship service is for members of the church who have need of making confession. Whereas the one after the service is for those who have need of obeying the first principles of the gospel.
(FIVE) - God has promised his children he will see to it, that they have the daily necessities of life. That is, if they will seek first his kingdom and his righteousness. Isn’t it great to know that we can comply with the Lord’s command found in 2nd Timothy 2v4, without having to fret and worry about whether or not we will have the necessities of life (Matt.6v25-33)?
(SIX) - God wants all his people to be teachers of his word (Heb.5v12, 2nd Timothy 2v2, Titus 2v3-5). However, his will is that they acquire a knowledge of his word first (Heb.5v12, 2nd Timothy 2v2). So none of us should ever attempt to teach others that which we ourselves do not understand.
(SEVEN) - In Matt.7v1-5 , we find another first set forth. This account teaches that before we (with God’s word), begin to teach others they will be condemned if they do this or that or leave undone this or that, we are to first teach ourselves.
Yes, God wants all of his people to teach: that is, all of then who are willing to practice what they preach. God does not want any teachers whose way of life says: do as I say and not as I do. He says these kind of teachers will be responsible for his name being blasphemed
(Rom.2v21-24). So let us first clean up our own yard before saying anything about our neighbors.
(EIGHT) - Will all fornicators be lost? Yes, Paul in 1st Cor.6v9-10 and Gal. 5v19-21 says they shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This same apostle in Romans 1v29-32 says they are worthy of death.
Then in Eph. 5v1-6, he declares that God’s wrath will be poured out upon them. What is Fornication? The Bible defines it as a sex relationship between a man and woman who are not husband and wife (1st Cor.7v2).
Does God recognize any sex relationship? Yes, he approves of sex between a man and woman who are husband and wife (1st Cor.7v1-5, Heb.13).
Sure, my readers, God approves of sex between a man and woman but first they must be married.
(NINE) - The qualifications for those who serve as elders are itemized in 1st Timothy 3v1-7 and Titus 1v5-11. A plurality of men are to be appointed to oversee each congregation of the Lord’s church (Titus 1v5, Acts 20v17-28, 1st Peter 5v1-5, Phil. 1v1).
However, first the appointing congregation, must have men who are qualified to serve as elders. Yes, the first seven verses in 1st Timothy 3 sets forth the qualifications for those who are to serve as elders. In verse eight, we begin to read the qualification men must have who serve as deacons.
Then in verse 10 we hear Paul say “Let those also first be proved.” The word these in this statement refers to the deacons and the word also refers to the elders.
So God through Paul in this verse commanded that men are not to be appointed to serve as elders and deacons before they have those qualifications. Oh yes, my readers. God demands that some things be first So let us strive to never be guilty of changing the order. |
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| January 31, 2007 |
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| Hi. I believe the Bible should be a Christian's final sovereign authority on any matter, so what I have to say is based solely on the word of God which is without error or of any private interpretation. The scripture states that the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (I am made, you are made, so I believe that means us). That verse goes on to say, even his eternal power and Godhead; so they are without excuse. I don't think that calling/ choosing/election are as big a mystery as everyone is making them out to be. If you read Ephesians 1:4-6 it states that He has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated (this isn't Calvin talking here, this is the LORD OF LORDS) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (not ours), to the praise of the glory of his grace (his gracious election, his unmerited favor), wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. I don't see anything here that says that I did anything. I see that I'm his workmanship and he makes me to do his will. I don't see any scripture in the Word of God that says we have an option of choosing Christ or accepting him. By his grace we are created to be either vessels of honor or 'the chosen' according to his purpose (Romans 8:28), or vessels of destruction. He makes both. A good biblical reference for that would be Romans 9:11. Here it is talking about Jacob and Esau and it says, (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;), children from the same womb, one chosen to be righteous, the other wicked and as you can see, it goes on to say, neither having done any good or evil. God is sovereign and does everything according to his purpose. The chosen or elect of God have been predestined to be just that from before the world began (2Ti 1:19). Those who just can't fathom a loving God creating some people for the purpose of wickedness and destruction, need to realize THAT HE IS GOD, ALWAYS IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF ALL OF HIS CREATION AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM. He makes us to be what he has created us for -- his will and divine purpose. He makes those called to be righteous from the foundation of the world, righteous, and those called to be wicked from the foundation of the world, wicked. It's no big mystery. People who cannot accept that are serving a God that they have conjured up in their minds and not the God of the Bible. These are the same people who have made up the concept of free will. It's a nice thought but it's not truth. |
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| February 01, 2007 |
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| I once saw this discussion on a forum, and a person posted a very short reply that I never forgot. It was something like this:
'There always is that discussion on elections vs. free will. I never understould as why they have to exclude eachother. God is ALPHA and OMEGA right? He can do it all. Let's try to imagine God's vastness.
The following link is a non-christian theory on how many dimensions there are. http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php
As you can see, it stops at ten dimensions. A being that can see 10 dimensions can thus see all possible options a being creates as seperate worlds. I think God is capable of going over 10 dimensions. As such, you have a free will, but despite the fact that you have that free will God allready KNEW what you were going to do!" |
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| February 01, 2007 |
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| Linda,
Then how do you reconcile the "Whosoever wills" in the Bible?
Rev 22:17 "And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely."
Seeing as how God's word is truth, I have to disagree with Linda when there is a clear contradiction to God's word.
Teaching the truth of Christ in Love,
Bro. Chris |
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| February 01, 2007 |
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| Because he first chose me. "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Or, we could look at "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence." The best one I read is John 3:16, "For god so loved the WORLD..." Funny that He would send His Son for a world that only a few would be saved don't you think?
Bro. Chris |
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| February 01, 2007 |
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| Chris,
I have to again go to the Word of God for my answer to your question about "Whosoever wills". Acts 13:48 describes the "Whosoever". They are the ones who are appointed to believe: "...and all who were appointed for eternal life believed." It is obvious from this verse that the ones who believe are the ones who are appointed by God to believe. Also, check out Philippians 1:29: "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him but also to suffer for His sake. God grants that the elect believe. That is why we are born again not of our wills but the will of God. (John 1:12-13)
Also, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by 'seeing as how God's word is truth' that you have to disagree with me when there is a clear contradiction to God's word. What is the contradiction that you are seeing? Do you mean because the Bible makes reference to election and whosoever will? I think there are quite a few things in the Bible that seem to contradict each other, however, does that make them any less true? You are not disagreeing with me on that note, but your disagreement is with God who is the author. You will have to seek Him for an answer to that one, I'm afraid. |
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| February 01, 2007 |
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| Sorry, Acts 13:48 can be read either way. Phillipians 1:29, it is given — Greek, “it has been granted as a favor,” or “gift of grace.” Faith is the gift of God (Eph_2:8), not wrought in the soul by the will of man, but by the Holy Ghost.
Joh_1:12, Joh_1:13:Matthew Henry, a Calvinist, explains this well: "The true Christian's dignity and privilege are twofold: -
First, The privilege of adoption, which takes them into the number of God's children: To them gave he power to become the sons of God. Hitherto, the adoption pertained to the Jews only (Israel is my son, my first-born); but now, by faith in Christ, Gentiles are the children of God, Gal_3:26. They have power, exousian - authority; for no man taketh this power to himself, but he who is authorized by the gospel charter. To them gave he a right; to them gave he this pre-eminence. This power have all the saints.
Note, 1. It is the unspeakable privilege of all good Christians, that they are become the children of God. They were by nature children of wrath, children of this world. If they be the children of God, they become so, are made so Fiunt, non nascuntur Christiani - Persons are not born Christians, but made such. - Tertullian. Behold what manner of love is this, 1Jo_3:1. God calls them his children, they call him Father, and are entitled to all the privileges of children, those of their way and those of their home.
2. The privilege of adoption is entirely owing to Jesus Christ; he gave this power to them that believe on his name. God is his Father, and so ours; and it is by virtue of our espousals to him, and union with him, that we stand related to God as a Father. It was in Christ that we were predestinated to the adoption; from him we receive both the character and the Spirit of adoption, and he is the first-born among many brethren. The Son of God became a Son of man, that the sons and daughters of men might become the sons and daughters of God Almighty.
Secondly, The privilege of regeneration (Joh_1:13): Which were born. Note, All the children of God are born again; all that are adopted are regenerated. This real change evermore attends that relative one. Wherever God confers the dignity of children, he creates the nature and disposition of children. Men cannot do so when they adopt. Now here we have an account of the original of this new birth. 1. Negatively. (1.) It is not propagated by natural generation from our parents. It is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of corruptible seed, 1Pe_1:23. Man is called flesh and blood, because thence he has his original: but we do not become the children of God as we become the children of our natural parents. Note, Grace does not run in the blood, as corruption does. Man polluted begat a son in his own likeness (Gen_5:3); but man sanctified and renewed does not beget a son in that likeness. The Jews gloried much in their parentage, and the noble blood that ran in their veins: We are Abraham's seed; and therefore to them pertained the adoption because they were born of that blood; but this New Testament adoption is not founded in any such natural relation. (2.) It is not produced by the natural power of our own will. As it is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, so neither is it of the will of man, which labours under a moral impotency of determining itself to that which is good; so that the principles of the divine life are not of our own planting, it is the grace of God that makes us willing to be his. Nor can human laws or writings prevail to sanctify and regenerate a soul; if they could, the new birth would be by the will of man. But, 2. Positively: it is of God. This new birth is owing to the word of God as the means (1Pe_1:23), and to the Spirit of God as the great and sole author. True believers are born of God, 1Jo_3:9; 1Jo_5:1. And this is necessary to their adoption; for we cannot expect the love of God if we have not something of his likeness, nor claim the privileges of adoption if we be not under the power of regeneration.
Again, how do you explain the fact that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence? Why would God send His Son into the world to pay our sin debt if only an elect would be saved. God's word is very clear on this. He so loved the World. Not the physical planet, but the people in it.
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about evangelization? If only those that God has chosen would be saved, then why would Jesus give us the Great Commission?
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| February 01, 2007 |
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| From previous post:
"I don't see any scripture in the Word of God that says we have an option of choosing Christ or accepting him."
-See Linda's Post #1
How about Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." You have to choose to call. You, nor I, were made to call upon Him. Throughout the Old Testament, we see where Israel chose not to follow God. Some chose not to believe that Jesus was Messiah.
Romans 1:24-28: Verse 28 reads thus, "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God," Here again, there is a clear choice presented. |
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| February 02, 2007 |
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| About evangelism...We don't know who the elect are and God calls us to go unto all of the nations. We must do our part and go, and let God do His part to save. God doesn't need to use us, but He chooses to use us. He does it all and somehow we will be rewarded for what He has fully done! How exciting! Now wonder we will all lay our crowns at His feet! I fully believe in the doctrines of grace and one of my spiritual gifts is evangelism...the two are not a contradiction. In the Love of Christ, Sue |
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| February 03, 2007 |
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| It is also sad that with this view that we don't have a free will to choose that one would have to throw out the verses that reassure the believer of Salvation. 1st John 5:13-14. Who was that written to? |
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| February 03, 2007 |
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| We must remember that when we read about the "whosoevers" that this was a time when the Jewish people thought salvation was just for them. The Word lets them and us know that salvation is for the Jews and the gentiles. 1 John 5:13-14, is clearly spoken to those who believe. So that we may know that we have eternal life because of His spirit that He placed in us as assurance for our salvation. |
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| February 03, 2007 |
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| Sue,
You are exactly right on point with that last response. My point for saying that was that we choose to believe. There is no need in reassurance for those who consider themselves to have no choice. |
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| February 04, 2007 |
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| With all due respect Pastor, I read the verses and see nothing but eternal security spoken about. I also think that when we get to heaven we will all be humbled at all of the things we were so wrong about. I always try to keep an open mind when I read the Word and when I talk to fellow Christians. Especially since I have changed my opinion on so many different issues over the years, including this one. I have enjoyed the conversation though. It is nice to have a good Biblical discussion with someone who doesn't get all in your face, that is just plain not Christianity....so thank you :) Be Blessed and keep studying. |
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| February 04, 2007 |
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| Sue,
Know this, that I love you and I too have appreciated the conversation. The most important thing is that we bring people to Him. God bless you, Ms. Sue. |
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| February 06, 2007 |
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| Sue,
I really appreciate your comment dated Feb. 4, 2007. Like yourself, I've changed my opinion many times over the last 25 years or so. Through God's loving kindness he has continued to lead me by his spirit into more truth and knowledge of him, and through his great mercy he's already humbled me in regard to my wrong thinking and hardness of heart over many matters including this one. I've really enjoyed reading this entire blog and, yes, it is nice to be able to have a good Biblical discussion with other Christians who are not contentious spiritual bullies, or as you so appropriately phrased it, "with someone who doesn't get all in your face." I think we must all have an answer for the hope that lies within us and must be willing to contend for the faith, and that, I've found, can be done with respect of anothers opinion. We learn from scripture that the 'fruit of the Spirit' are not individual "fruits" from which we pick and choose. Rather, the fruit of the Spirit is one ninefold "fruit" that characterizes all who truly are led by the Holy Spirit. Thank you for being that loving, joyful, peaceful, longsuffering, gentle, good, faithful, meek and temperate soul that the LORD used to minister so beautifully. Have a great day living for Jesus. < |
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| February 06, 2007 |
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| Youth Pastor Chris,
Hi. I'm just assuming your comments from Feb. 1 at 8:44 and 8:56 PM were addressed to me and if that is the case, then I am supposed to have an answer for the hope that lies within me and will attempt to answer some of what you asked to the best of my ability.
First of all, I guess you need to know where I'm coming from. I believe in the biblical doctrine that God alone chooses who is saved. He makes His choice independent of any quality or condition in sinful man. He does not look into a person and recognize something good nor does He look into the future to see who would choose Him. He elects people to salvation purely on the basis of His good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. He does this because He is sovereign; that is, He has the absolute authority, right, and ability to do with His creation as He pleases. He has the right to elect some to salvation and let all the rest go their natural sinful way. Some will say that this is unfair. It may seem so at first, but if you study it out you will see that it is quite fair and not the tyrannical doctrine that so many make it out to be. Fairness would be that we all go to hell. ALL people deserve damnation (Eph. 2:3). God would be perfectly just to let all slide into the eternal abyss of damnation--and He would still be just as loving, because that is His nature. God doesn't owe us anything. The question isn't "Why would He only choose SOME?"; but rather, "Why did He choose ANY?"
What it really is, is the manifestation of God's mercy and love. It ensures the salvation of the ones He has called. It properly reveals the true nature of man to be utterly sinful, rebellious, and antagonistic to God. It puts God in total sovereign control, where He rightfully belongs. It removes man's ability to take any credit at all for salvation, because even the act of believing could not be self-authored in a sinful free will. Finally, it reveals the greatness of God's mercy and love and causes the saved to rest in the knowledge that it was God who made their salvation sure, and not their own faulty, sinful wills.
How do I explain the fact that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance: The "any and all" are only the Christians. This may sound absurd at first, but the Bible says that Jesus is the only way to the Father (John 14:6) and that there is no other name under heaven by which a man may be saved (Acts 4:12). Can the "any and all" here mean everyone? What about those who never heard the gospel, like the Aborigines 100 years before Christ? Does the gospel message apply to them? I ask this because how can anyone be saved apart from Jesus, especially when they haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel? It seems to me that the "any and all" of this verse must apply to the elect.
A discussion of Romans 5:18 sheds light on the biblical usage of "all" when it says, "...there resulted justification of life to all men" (NASB). The "all" there obviously cannot mean everyone, but only a select group, i.e., "the many" spoken of in the following verse.
In addition, other verses worth taking a look at in this context are 1 Cor. 15:22 and 2 Cor. 5:14. It says in 1 Cor. 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." Adam represented everyone in his death. Christ represented the elect in His death as is evidenced by the fact that the only ones who are made alive in Christ (Rom. 6:11; 8:10) are the Christians. The "all" can only be the elect.
2 Cor. 5:14 says, "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died." The only ones who die in Christ (Rom. 6:8) are the Christians. The "all" can only be the elect.
Why would God send His son into the world to pay our sin debt if only an elect would be saved: God's word is very clear on this. Because without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. There had to be a blood sacrifice.
There is an eternal covenant made between God the Father and the Son with regard to the elect. This covenant was made before the universe was created and it consisted of the Father promising to bring to the Son all whom the Father had given the Son. "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day...I pray for them. (I think you will find this next statement very interesting and worth studying out) -- I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours...Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world" (John 6:39; 17:9, 24, NIV).
So, in the eternal covenant, the Father would prepare the Son a body (Luke 1:35; Heb. 10:5); give the Son the Spirit without measure (Is. 43:1,2; 61:1); always support and comfort the Son (Is. 42:1-7; 49:8); deliver the Son from the power of death (Ps. 2); bring to the Son all whom the Father had given Him (John 6:39; 17:9, 24); and give the Son a number of redeemed that one one could number (Ps. 22:27; 72:17). The Son's part was to assume human nature (Gal.4:4,5; Heb. 2:10,11,14,15); be under the Law (Ps. 40:8; Gal. 4:4,5; Phil. 2:5-8); and to bear the sins of His people (Is. 53:12; John 10:11,15; 1 Pet.2:24).
In the eternal covenant you can see that God has given a certain number of people to the Son and that the Son came to redeem them, to "lose none of them" (John 6:39). I think we can conclude from this that God had in mind a certain people whom would be His elect. Since God knows all things, He knows those whom He has chosen. Hence, they are predestined from the very beginning of time.
Sorry, that is is so long, but it's a lot to explain and I pray it makes sense. My break is over, so if you'd like to continue our conversation, please respond. I love talking about the things of God. Peace <
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| February 07, 2007 |
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| Wow!! My blog went in several different directions, and I am finally ready to get of the fence and make some comments. Please forgive my rant. This is just a written expression of where I am at right now in my thinking and I am open to changing and reversing everything I write and say if God changes my understanding.
I really wanted to hear about everyone's experience of coming to God. I find that most people at the time of decision for Christ think and feel like they are making a choice of their own free will to believe and follow. However, upon reflection, after being in relationship with God for a while, they can see how God's grace and the Holy Spirit played the preeminent roles in their understanding, choosing, and following, and God gets the glory and credit. This doesn't discount the person's role in the process, but highlights the fact that it is grace upon grace that we are able to understand the things of God and respond with faith. That is amazing grace.
However, my understanding of free will is that God did not make robots. He wants people to love him and choose him. Why else would the story of God's interaction with humanity involve the choosing of a few people to communicate to a chosen nation who God is and exhort that nation of people to be a blessing to the world by carrying God's message to the world, and then God coming down to earth in human form to live and die for humanity, and again he chooses a few people to carry on that message to the rest of humanity? It is both beautiful and ludicrous.
The apostles while Christ was alive did not get it, but they followed as best they could in their humanity. They responded to Christ who was calling them to follow him. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit in the initial callings of the apostles. They were average or even below average guys who responded to Jesus' invitation. The Gospels portray them as very human sometimes courageous and noble and other times dim and faithless. My point is that they chose to follow, but when the fit hit the shan, they all scattered, except John. It wasn't until God empowered them with the Holy Spirit that they were able to truly understand and boldly move forward with the message.
This is a microcosm of the conversion experience. We respond to God's message in our feeble way, and God honors it by sealing us and empowering us with his Spirit. This may be oversimplifying it a little, but sometimes maybe we need to. The bottom line is that we can argue both sides of almost every doctrine using scripture and reason to back up those arguments.
Let's step back up a few sentences. Why didn't John run away like the rest of the apostles? I think he understood the bottom line truth of Jesus message, and it changed him in such a powerful way that he was able to overcome his fear and continue to follow despite the cost. What did he understand more deeply than the rest of the apostles. Check out how John refers to himself throughout the Gospel of John: "The disciple whom Jesus loved".
That is the bottom line: God loves you!!
You are the "Beloved".
The mystery of the elect and the free will of humanity will continue to be explored and debated. And we will continue to try and put God in the box of systematic theologies. I am tired of doing that. Why do we come to Christ with humility and thanksgiving, experience his grace, forgiveness and love, and then turn into self righteous, rule making, doctrine defending close minded hypocrites? I am referring to myself here, but I am sure this probably describes you, too.
Like the Apostle Paul wrote in Phillipians 3: "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead." I want to be like Christ. I want to be a friend of sinners. Embrace the broken hearted. Touch the leper with the healing touch of Christ. Love the "unlovable". I want the marginalized to feel right at home in my presence and in my church. I want the "immoral" to know that we are the same.
I have been reading a book by Brennan Manning, and I think he says it best "History attest that religion and religious people tend to be narrow. Instead of expanding our capacity for life, joy, and mystery, religion contracts it. As systematic theology advances, the sense of wonder declines. The paradoxes, contradictions, and ambiguities of life are codified within the pages of a leather-bound book. Instead of a love story, the Bible is viewed as a detailed manual of directions. (Abba's Child, p.77)"
I do not want to discount the efforts of theologians and Christians to try to understand God in a systematic way. But let's not mistake the system for God. God is God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. It all starts with God and ends with God, but somehow God allows us be involved in the story in the middle. Let's embrace the mystery of it all and carry forth the central message of the Bible: God loves. Let him sort out the who, what, where, why and how. I don't think that is our job. Just be a witness to others of your experience of God's love, love God, love your neighbor, and see what God can do with that.
the guy that Jesus loves,
J Hop |
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| February 07, 2007 |
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| Jesus RULES!!! I love your last comment J Hop. I did describe my walk with Christ and how I came to know him (briefly) on your Blog. Then I thought I must have totally ministerpreted your opening remark. So, I deleted it...feeling silly.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
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| February 07, 2007 |
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| I am by no means an expert on this matter but I just wanted to interject a verse that popped into my head while reading all the discussions. The verse is Matthew 21:22 (KJV)"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." The way I interpret this verse is that if I believe that my Lord and Savior can save a loved one, friend, or just some poor soul headed for hell and I pray diligently and have faith or belive that He can do it then he will save them. I pray diligently for over 30 years to save my alcoholic and abusive father and you know what He did? He saved him. I also prayed for the salvation of others. If everyone is destined to be saved then why waste our time telling others of Him. Why don't we just throw out the verse about Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY living creature. Why waste our time if only a select few will choose it? Why go at all if they are elected unto salvation? I am so thankful that the Lord gave me a free will to choose Him. Yes, I do believe that He knew who would chose salvation before the foundation of the world but I still believe that He gives us the free choice to choose Him. This might not make sense to everyone but we also must remember that OUr ways are not His ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. We cannot comprehend God's thoughts. I beleive my choosing to serve Him gives Him greater pleasure. He is after all my father and what father isn't please when one of their children chooses to do the right thing insted of being forced to be obedient? I know it gives me great pleasure when my children obey me and do things for me without being told because they love me and choose to do those things to please me. |
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| February 07, 2007 |
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In his book Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis points out how we tie ourselves in knots trying to describe the nature of an infinite God using our finite understanding and language. He specifically points out how we can only really understand time in terms of past, present, and future--i.e., a timeline--but that God lives in more of an "eternal now." IIRC, he urges us to consider that it's more about God's absolute knowledge than it is about the physics problem of chronology.
IMHO, much of systematic theology falls prey to this same problem. Even if our minds could grasp the fullness of God, we wouldn't have the words to express it.
As if that's not enough, we're also often trying to explain relational concepts. If you've ever loved someone, you know how often words fail us there. How much more when we're talking about God!
I personally can't reconcile the passages that depict God inviting and calling with the passages that talk about election and predestination without resorting to a "certain words just don't mean what you think they mean" approach that I find disingenuous and unsatisfying. I hear advocates say that either/or depicts the truth but I'd never seen a good both/and argument until a few years back, when I ran across a book by Norman Geisler called Chosen but Free that helped me more than anything I've read outside the Bible.
Geisler considers himself a Calvinist, btw, but there was plenty in the book to annoy folks at both ends of the spectrum and, as I recall, he took a lot of flack from his fellow Calvinists.
For instance, Geisler pointedly discusses the fact that if you go too far down the path of free will you end up with a God who can't know the end from the beginning because he has to wait to see where our individual choices will take all of us. That's obviously not scriptural. (And all the Arminians are saying, "But no one I know actually believes that...")
Go too far in the other direction and you end up with puppets living out a fatalistic existence. (And all the Calvinists are saying, "But no one I know actually believes that...")
He provides a good thumbnail sketch of the issues, timelining the history of the doctrines and explaining how both sides often use the same words but apply different meanings--concepts like "sovereignty" and "general grace" sound simple enough but they have significantly different connotations to different audiences. (And oddly enough, just like in cross-cultural contexts, talking louder and slower doesn't really help.) It's really too much to get into here.
What really stood out to me was an illustration that Geisler used that I think does more to capture the whole of scriptural teaching on this topic. I know this won't satisfy everyone but I'll give it a try anyway.
IIRC, he said that when he asked his wife to marry him (election), that although he knew her answer would be yes (foreknowledge), this information did not limit her ability to decide (free will). He said that he intentionally didn't give attention to a woman he wasn't interested in (sovereignty) but that he also made it a point to only ask (election) the one he knew (omniscience) would say yes (free will).
IMHO, the key context here is our all-knowing, eternal God. Everything falls into place when we remember that concepts like "pre-" and "fore-" are rooted in the human understanding of "when". With God the answer to "When?" is "Always." As humans living in time and space, experiencing "I once was lost but know I'm found", we do experience both God's call and our response. But questions about why anyone in particular will be saved ("Why me?") and the procedural details seem to be beyond our comprehension.
Paul seems comfortable with the concept of "mystery", perhaps we should be, too. Let's lay aside the distraction of this debate and get on with something we all should be able to agree on--"go and make disciples".
(BTW, my apologies to Dr. Geisler if I've gotten parts of this story wrong. I don't have the book in front of me. It's part of an extensive collection spread over three continents that I have on loan to various members of the Body--you know who you are!) |
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| February 07, 2007 |
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| Basically my testimony is the same as my doctrinal stand, that is that God saved me from were I was headed...hell. He stoped me dead in my tracks (not unlike the apostle Paul) and kept me from doing something that would have greatly effected my life. I wasn't on the way to kill christians, like Paul, but let's just say I wasn't on my way to church either. My testimony confirms what the Bible teaches, that Jesus saves and Him alone. Be Blessed. |
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| February 11, 2007 |
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| I regret that I didn't get in on this a while ago, but wanted to add a couple of comments that have occurred to me over the years. First, I'll admit right up front that I grew up in Reformed and Presbyterian denominations all my life (i.e. Calvinist), and still hold to those convictions now at the age of 46. When I was about 12, the Gospel that I had heard all my life hit me like a ton of bricks, being absolutely overwhelmed by my own sinfulness, and the greatness of God's Grace. I was in my early 20's when I came across various arguments for Calvinism, and I was particularly struck by the Biblicalness of it. It was a joy to realize, "This isn't just what Mom and Dad believe, but it's really Biblical!"
One of the things I read briefly in these comments was from Pat back on Jan. 14 who said there is no free will. Well, I certainly think I do what I want to -- the question becomes, "What do we want to do?" Freedom addresses one thing, but it does not address ability. I'm free to try to flap my arms and fly, but am not able to do so. We must remember that our will is also a victim of the fall. Here I'm thinking of passages like "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." John 6:44 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God." Rom. 3:10-11 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jer. 17:9
I also think there is a reason behind the Holy Spirit's use of certain words to describe becoming a Christian: being born (John 3), created (2 Cor 5:17), and raised from the dead in Eph. 2. All of these descriptions are of something done without the will of the one acted upon. Yet what is Lazarus going to do when he is no longer dead, but walk (John 11:43-44)?
As to the apparent inconsistencies of Scripture, I don't think I could really improve upon what has been said by Linda and Sue -- those who are willing have been regenerated.
That's just my couple of thoughts, but I wanted to include the lyrics of a hymn that expresses this from an experiential viewpoint (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/s/isought.htm):
I sought the Lord, and afterward I knew
He moved my soul to seek Him, seeking me.
It was not I that found, O Savior true;
No, I was found of Thee.
Thou didst reach forth Thy hand and mine enfold;
I walked and sank not on the storm vexed sea.
’Twas not so much that I on Thee took hold,
As Thou, dear Lord, on me.
I find, I walk, I love, but oh, the whole
Of love is but my answer, Lord, to Thee!
For Thou were long beforehand with my soul,
Always Thou lovest me. |
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| February 11, 2007 |
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| Amen! |
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