Good post Deb.

I totally agree with you, too, Pastor Aminata.  It took me a while to realize that I don't have to defend God's point of view.  He is more than capable of getting His point across to anyone.

Your are so right that there are many religous groups out there that want to believe that Hell is not real. We must be careful and be on guard against false teachings.

Hell is indeed real, but Jesus is more real; believe in Him for He is Lord and Savior.
--JR

Arlene, that is interesting about the worm that lives in volcanic lava.  I agree that one would have to do an in depth study of Greek, Latin and Hebrew to understand the bible fully, and even then, we would still have questions.

Disciple of Jesus Christ, Revelation 20 is an excellent reference.  I agree, that if one is saved, they will enter the Kingdom of heaven.  And I do believe that hell is real also, and those that don't become saved will go there...

Jack, thank you for your comments, and your link to your blog.  I think it would be interesting reading for those that have not read it.  It kind of ties in to this blog.

Sue, lol.  I am not trying to preach, really, although it might seem like it.  Just want to make sure people are aware that there are those that will try to lead us astray.

Pastor Aminata, Amen!!!

     Some of you seem to think the aim of God's salvation is to die and go to heaven.  Recorded in several places Jesus says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away:  but my words shall not pass away." (Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33)  What will you do if you die and heaven is not there?  How Scripture uses the word ought to be looked at more closely.

     The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture.  The commentaries like to explain it with a Latin term to sound like they know what they're talking about.  They say the plural "heavens" is majestis pluralis, meaning plural only to communicate the exceeding glory of heaven.  In reality there are three (3) heavens, (2 Co 12:2) corresponding to the dimensions of spirit (where peculiarly God's presence is), soul (psychic realm,) and body (the heaven of earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.)  Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.)  While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.

     When I bring up God when talking to strangers, whether believer or not, they usually change the subject to Ethics, "Do you think such and such is a sin?"  It seems there is some prior commitment that functions as a veil to keep out the unworthy that is seen in the common misconception that the aim or purpose of those in whom the light has shined is to die and go, not to "hell," but to heaven.  Progress toward our actual aim is in process whether we recognize it or not, regardless of what we do or not.  When accurately taught, "The rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Hb 5:12,) what functionally is our, "Foundation" (Hb 6:1,) we realize our aim is to not die, but live; and, to enter, not a place, but a state of being that corresponds to the Divine nature (1 Co 3:11.)  The apostle Paul (in Phillipians 3) described his aim:  "If by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead..." (v.3) "I press on toward the goal unto the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus..." (v.14) " For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:  who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself." (v.19-21)  Resurrection followed by ascension is actually the at the finish of the race we are in.

     The container Christ is a vessel of another form than that of Adam.  Acknowledging a fact does not have the same effect on our personality as being formed through experience with the interrelatedness of that fact in our system of values.  While it can be accelerated by special emissaries from God, what each of go through is for Christ, Who is the Image and Glory of God, to be fully formed in us, (Ga 4:19) to undergo metamorphosis from Adam (homo sapiens) into Christ (homo novae,) (1 Co 15:45-49) that is, from beastly man of flesh into freely expressing all Jesus is and does---corporately when we gather as well as individually---no longer defined as a short-lived individual soul in a dirt husk subject to gravity and limited perception, but in another multidimensional deathless vessel of myriad living forms: all-knowing, all-powerfull and everywhere.  Our immediate development is out of everything destroying man by going through the cross into wholeness and health, liberation, enlightenment and abundance.  We are ultimately destined to enforce through love this blissful glory in all the universe.

     And, only as an introduction to the topic, you speak of "...hell...fire and brimstone,...hades, or sheol, or whatever you want to call it."  No, it's not "whatever you want to call it."  God intended something by saying "hades" and in other places he meant something else by saying "geehena" or He wouldn't have spelled them differently.  God has spoken.  What we endure entirely too much of is men's interpretations of what God meant to say rather the actual words chosen by the Holy Spirit to convey God's revelation.  If we would bow our hard heart and turn our stiff necks to what God says or does not say, limiting our expression of faith to the actual words of the Bible, verified by the original Scripture, we would make more rapid progress entering into the Divine nature.  It is by the use of concordances we can implement the authority of Scripture to which there is at least widespread lipservice.

The Bible, being a book of WORDS, is entirely symbolical! The letters "c-h-a-i-r" cannot be sat upon. They cast a SPELL in your consciousness to conjure up the awareness of a "chair." Depending on the extent of your development, as far as what Scripture produces in you (though more practically what the occasion calls for) this can evoke a carnal or worldly emphasis in an outer court interpretation of something for your body to sit in; or, it may cause a thought of a psychological abstraction, a position in relation to a collegial body (corresponding to the holy place,) like the /chair/man of a department; or, something more spiritual in nature (the third realm of the tabernacle in analogy,) like what the implications are when God makes us who were dead to be alive and awakened "and _seats_ us together among the celestials (or, in the heavenlies,) in Christ Jesus..." (Eph 2:6) Words are symbols; hence, the Bible, being a book of words, is entirely a book of symbols. There are various legitimate understandings of these symbols or words. Like the largely time oriented interpretations of the Revelation: historicist, preterist, futurist, spiritual or symbolic, all have some validity without being "the last word" on the meaning of the text. While we know what is meant by a "literal" interpretation, there can actually only be interpretation since we are dealing completely with symbols. I believe in each letter and every word of the original as directly God inspired.

     Consider death...scripture describes at least 8 different forms that Jesus goes through.  I'm only mentioning some.  Like he is slain before this world is here like it is now.  He was seed of woman in Mary which is an egg, an exclusively female form.  That, by the way, is what crushes the devils head.  After he died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah.  Something Jesus said was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in John 11:25-26)  In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him.  If sombody tells you that the original Hebrew word should not have been translated "hell," ---beside the fact God answered his prayer after he died (men made up the idea that God loves you 'til you die.  The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him.")---tell them to do the same thing with all the other words translated "hell."  (There's only a few more than a dozen in the New Testament.)  Nowhere in the Bible does it say that hades is gehenna or that gehenna is tartarus.  These are some of the original words the Holy Spirit spelled differently, one from another, because he was talking about different things.  Yet men put them into one English language category they call "hell."  The second death is never called hell in the Bible.  How could the first death be the last enemy (which God said he would abolish) even if many teach that it is?  Ultimately I expect to be with Him on His throne when His manifested glory is so great that heaven and earth won't be able to be found.  We just look at the one change of death and are afraid.  But there are many changes yet ahead as God brings us into His image and likeness.

---James Rohde

The Wyatt, I would agree that the belief that there is no hell is wishful thinking for some.  And I believe that the bible backs up the fact that there is a hell.  I don't know what it is like but I do know I don't want to be there.

Mike, thanks for that reference, it looks like an interesting site.

Charlie, one thing is for sure, the teachings and concepts of man are all fallible.  None of us really know how all of this is going to go down.  But I can't believe that God would not have a place of punishment reserved for those who refuse to believe in Him.

Grant, Very good comments.  I agree, I would much rather be in Heaven, and I don't think that my eternal salvation is something I want to fool around with.  I want to make sure I will be in Heaven by following Jesus.  I'd rather not take the chance, based on what people say, that there is no hell.

ReFORMer, I took a look at your profile page, and there isn't much information there.  There is a blog though, the same thing you just posted above, almost word for word.  That is fine if you want to write that blog for your page, but you don't need to come here and post the whole thing.  An abbreviated version would have been better.  There is so much information that you are trying to get across, that my eyes started to glaze over after the first three paragraphs.  And you may post whatever you want on my blogs, unless it is offensive, but I still stand behind my beliefs, and I quoted some of the scripture above that I base my beliefs on.  You may have more knowledge of the bible and the different languages, I don't know, because I don't know you or where you have been.  But I have faith in the people that I have learned from, and in my God and the Holy Spirit, that there is a hell.  I know nothing about it, but I do know I don't want to go there.  Many of the people that I have learned from have had years of studying the bible, and going to seminary.  I think they might know what they are talking about.

Pastor Tim, thank you for your comments and addition to the post.

PsalmsGirl, If at the end of life we all die, and that is all there is, then we won't be alive to care.  But if it isn't all there is, (which I wholeheartedly believe), and there is a hell and a heaven, I am secure in the knowledge that I will be with my Heavenly Father at the end.

Deb,

My post above was about the first time I was on mychurch.  Where I have usually been posting they often have longer posts.  I'm not sure if I should apologize.  I'll try to keep it shorter and be very specific. 

Let me also state, if you care to review the statement of faith at mychurch, I agree with it and am in no way transgressing it.  I personally prefer the so-called "Apostles' Creed," though that's not what we're talking about.  In either creed do you notice anything peculiar about how the Christians nearly universally believed and the developing Chrisendom (which I believe was the prophecied "great falling away") tried to creedally express "The Faith" in at least the first 500 years?  Why would anybody today require of me something contrary to what the Church expressed for over half a millennia in order to be recognized as a genuine blood bought, born of the Spirit of God member of the body of Christ in my locale?  Those around me will witness to my holy life.  It's not just words.

I want to quote from myself above about the veracity of Scripture itself and what the actual words are that God used.  It seems everybody who says they believe the Bible should have no problem accepting the statements of fact I present here.  This is something that puzzles me --- actual statements of Bible evidence anyone with an exhaustive concordance that shows the original words underlying English can prove or disprove --- yet where is submission to God's revelation He chose to make of Himself in the words He chose to use to transmit it?

Here I began with quoting the original post:  you speak of "...hell...fire and brimstone,...hades, or sheol, or whatever you want to call it."  No, it's not "whatever you want to call it."  God intended something by saying "hades" and in other places he meant something else by saying "geehena" or He wouldn't have spelled them differently.  God has spoken.  What we endure entirely too much of is men's interpretations of what God meant to say rather the actual words chosen by the Holy Spirit to convey God's revelation.  If we would bow our hard heart and turn our stiff necks to what God says or does not say, limiting our expression of faith to the actual words of the Bible, verified by the original Scripture, we would make more rapid progress entering into the Divine nature.  It is by the use of concordances we can implement the authority of Scripture to which there is at least widespread lipservice.

Let me continue quoting my post above...

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that hades is gehenna or that gehenna is tartarus.  These are some of the original words the Holy Spirit spelled differently, one from another, because he was talking about different things.  Yet men put them into one English language category they call "hell."  The second death is never called hell in the Bible.

Now these statements about "hell" are true of false.  I'm not speaking about the implications of these facts.  Nobody needs to be a Greek student to understand this.  I think only 17 occurances in the N.T. are involved, so one needn't even be very much of any kind of scholar to begin to address the subject.

May I add one more response?  Because of what Jesus was, by His death He ended Adamic humanity, its world and all God blessed there was finished.  Jesus was the First-born of a new creation and is the Way into it. (2 Cor 5:14-18 and 1 Cor 15:45-49)

Sorry...it looks so much longer when I posted it than it seemed when I wrote it.  What am I to do?  I made the previous post for your site then decided to use it on my blog (of only 3 post so far.)

---James

Tina, thank you for your comments and Amen!

Jack, I took a look at your post.  It was interesting reading.  Still, I stand by what I believe, and the interpretation that I get from the bible.

Reformer, I don't care if you write long posts...I just didn't know why you put the same thing in my blog that you wrote in yours.  You could have just put a link here to take people to yours.  Would work just as well.

Artic, thank you for your comments and biblical references.

Zandurian, thank you for all of the definitions.  Since I am so dumb in what the bible says and the correct meanings of the words, it is so nice to see someone who can set me straight.

To those of you who disagree that there is a hell, as strongly as you believe that, I believe just as strongly that there IS a hell.  You are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours.  Nor am I trying to do that.  I simply stated the facts as I have been taught and as I read the bible and what I glean from it.  I may not know the exact definition of the words hell, or hades, or sheol, or Gehenna, but I do know that there will be punishment of some sort for those who choose not to believe in God.  Why would God want them in Heaven with Him if they don't love Him?  If there is no hell, there is no Heaven either, and probably is no God.
Matthew 7:21-23: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ The I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

To those of you who do not believe there is a hell, that all will go to heaven, this verse plainly tells us that this isn't true. 

And, as in the following passage from Luke, the rich man tried to speak to Abraham and Lazarus from Hades, to tell them to warn his father's house lest they go to that place...

Something Jesus said was, "who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (in John 11:25-26) 

After Jesus died on the cross Peter says He preached to the spirits in prison that had been disobedient in the days of Noah.  "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient (no longer disobedient means their prison was working), when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Pet 3:18-20)  It is definitely taught by God's own word that:  "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6)

In the book of Jonah in the Bible it says after Jonah died and went to hell he prayed and God saved him.  Men made up the idea that God loves you until you die.  The gospel is "Christ died for our sins" and the Bible did not add "so we could have a chance to accept Him."  That others would benefit from faith in the gospel we do what we can to get them to believe. (cf., 2 Cor 5:18-20 KJV)  The verse fragment people use to supposedly back up the idea that once you die it's too late to come to faith is, "Now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many."  (Heb 9:26-28 KJV)  Use an interlinear, a Strong's concordance, or Bible software and you can prove for yourself the word "after' isn't in the original.  It is actually "in," which would read:  "in this [death] is the judgment."  In the context, which I quoted, Christ is presented as our judgment for sin.

     An interesting cross reference here is, "For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7 KJV)  The word "freed" isn't in the original.  It has "justified," which means to be declared right as a result of a judicial investigation.  The judgment for sin according to the Bible is death.

     Some say I believe in a second chance.  I tell them I don't believe in a first chance. God isn't doing this by chance.  It's not just a clever rebuttal.  "...according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." (Eph 1:10)   "God is working together the all..." is the beginning of Rom 8:28.  Wouldn't someone even by accident choose the right way if it was up to us?   Scripture says, "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Rom 3:12)  This is because all are under "the law of sin unto death" from which Christ makes us free.

     Do you realize the promise to not be hurt of the second death is to the Overcomer? (cf., Rev 2:11)  I think there is suffering beyond this life.  A lot of Christians are going to be very surprised.  There is no two ways about it.  Our God is a consuming fire.  Fire is not an attribute of His wrath, but an aspect of His nature.  Our Father is fire.  We are flames of living fire.  Everyone must be salted with fire, Jesus said.  He also says, "Neither shall there be any more pain." (Rev 21:4)  I believe in every word, even every letter of Scripture, including everything that translators have put the word hell over.  But I have searched the various nooks and crannies of the word and compared it to what men have said.  Which would you have me choose to believe?

---James

P.S.  Deb and friends...consider with me about some of the Scripture portions you mentioned above:
---------------------------

Lk 16:19-31 about the rich man and Lazarus:

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM by J. Preston Eby

The Parable
The Rich Man
Lazarus
The Deaths of the Rich Man and Lazarus
Abraham's Bosom
Lazarus In Abraham's Bosom
The Rich Man In Torment
The Great Gulf

HERE

------------------------------
about Rev 14:10-11:
And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night