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| The bible |
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I have seen quotes of scripture being God breathed and inerrant viz. without error and the alpha/omega of truth. Sadly this is a misnomer.
The bible is just a book, black and sometimes red text on thin white pages, an all time best seller but that is all it is, A BOOK.
I can just see people writhing as they read this.
But it is the Word of God? No it's not, it is a book recording the words of men inspired by God.
Well therefor it is inerrant? No it is not. Let us look at a famous trinity verse 1 John 5:7-8 (click) and these three are one. Not what I say but what others say. You can search other translations and see they too make the same comments about not being in all manuscripts.
Many have accepted that this was a deliberate add-on and did not belong there. So the English bible you read is not inerrant. And the bible is still a Book.
But it is Spirit, it is Life? Wrong it is a book.
But there is a difference. My dad always told me when I was a child, that the bible is a closed book and it takes the Holy Spirit (a key) to reveal (open) the meaning and for it to make sense to you. He was right.
Well for me the bibles are no longer paper books but computer program(s) that are far easier to navigate with so the book stays on the shelf and I use my computer for study, my laptop makes it very portable too. Imagine carting 50 bible to church with you?
What my dad did not tell me, there are many layers in the bible.
I have heard that context is important. That is true but then you limit yourself to one layer only. You can read the same chapter for 20 years and it reads the same till 20 years +1 day you see something new, then the whole story changes, welcome to layer 2, many more to go.
The point I make is this; if what you know of the bible has been influenced by the teachings of another man or men or church system, you will have beliefs ingrained into you. My dad never preached his version of salvation to me, he just prayed for me continuously. Eventually I got saved. He had wisdom and knew, God had to do the work or else it would be a sham.
When I started to study the bible, I had very little external influences to affect me but they were there. Hell was not one of them. Did I fear hell? No. I did not believe in it as a child and when I became born-again, I asked the Holy Spirit about it directly. Initially I too preached a turn or burn message until one day the Lord clearly asked me, "Why do you not tell them about my love instead?" Boy, did that change things.
This hell word was always notated in my paper bibles and in the centre margins were Sheol, Gehenna, Hades and Hinnom. I did not have a concordance but always wondered why different words all meant hell.
Well, when I got into textual criticism, I found out why. Then I asked, where did it all start? That too I have discovered the origins of. Then where did it all go wrong? Still exploring that but needless to say, much of the traditions held today are still derivatives of the RCC doctrines.
There have been moves of God but they are short lived as man always feels a need to legalise this new move by denouncing a previous one and introducing a creed or statement of faith.
Many hold to the doctrine of Lucifer being a fallen angel renamed satan aka the devil aka the dragon aka the serpent plus of course the third of the angels he drew from heaven or who rebelled with him or that there were 3 Arch Angels Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer, sound familiar? Scripture?
Well that is also a myth. Yes the devil is real but he sure ain't bigger than God. I have met Jesus but have yet to meet the devil, I was told he was defeated I'm sure it mentions it in the Good Book.
Forgive my cynicism but this is why Christendom is such a joke in the eyes of the world today.
We (UR believers) are accused of twisting scripture to suit, it has also been stated it can be twisted to suit any viewpoint. That is about the only truth anyone has said.
So does UR twist scripture? Well if you hold to a belief you grew up with it may well appear that way. How do you know it is not true?
1. Based on what you were taught?
2. What the Holy Spirit has revealed to you?
You would be very brave to answer the latter as even we who believe in the ultimate will of God being fulfilled in this age and the next, do not make that claim without reservations. There is bias with everyone, like it or not.
Safety in numbers I hear you say?
Well, who were the real heroes of the bible, the conformists or the non-conformists?
The one thing why the notion of no literal hell is rejected is saved from what? Or does it take away the perceived notion that your will is able to override the will of God? Could it be your salvation actually had nothing to do with you?
We had this very question on the forum the other day and I merely did a word search in the NT on save* and the very 1st verse referenced says it all.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
I suppose most miss that part as it all dealing with prophesy peceding that verse.
I have heard many say they are Calvinists, Armenian and many other labels of their professed form of Christianity. Amazing how the teachings of dead men have survived till today.
Has God stopped talking to His Children?
Has His way of reconciliation changed?
So we are back to the book.
If the source of your belief only stems from a few words on paper mixed with a little pinch of blind faith then maybe you are not what you claim to be.
The bible is not the owner's manual. An owners manual tells you how to operate and/or how to fix a problem. The bible is a guide. It is one of the many ways God can use to reveal Himself to you. How did the folk pre-1500's cope with no bible and let alone not being able to read? Oh yes, Oral tradition. Hmm sounds like man is in the loop and of course man is fallible no?
Well today, we not only have a printed bible but many versions of it. So if the bible is the inerrant word of God, why so many translations esp. into one language? Ah yes of course, they (the others that believe differently than you do) twist the scriptures to suit themselves.
I wonder what happened to this part?
Mat 23:10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ. (MKJV)
Seems this bit in Matthew 23 is seen only as admonition to the others. Read Matthew 23 (click) sometime, try and apply it to yourself, I know I do.
You see good folk, if your salvation is only about fire insurance then these words should speak volumes.
Mat 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
This is speaking to believers not unbelievers.
A non believer will not Prophesy in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do deliverance in the name of Jesus.
A non believer will not do any mighty works in the name of Jesus.
But I suppose it is taken out of context
So if hell is not real as we believe, why is this so offensive? Oh! we might lead others astray, the weaker Christians. I do not think that is the reason. The truth is, it reveals God for who He truely is, a God with unconditional love.
But God cannot look upon sin?
No He cannot, He abhors it. Ever wondered how God does the drawing of us when we are dead in sin? I mean He cannot look upon sin, can He?
How about, He does not look upon our sin but looks past/through that sin into our very hearts, I mean He has to get through all these layers just to knock on our hearts doesn't He? Had to do it with me so I guess it was the same for you too.
Yes but we still have to open the door. True, but think of this. He seeks out the door to your heart and it is He that does the knocking not the other way round.
As for the babes in Christ, I would advise them; get your nose into the Bible and let the Holy Spirit teach you and not a man.
But what if you are wrong?
This question is always a leading question meaning that again what we share here will ultimately influence someone. We still trust on the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to each and every one and we are the first to issue this caution. That said, the question itself reeks of doubt by the asker. To me it is also a rhetorical question.
Show me one verse that says we are to believe in a literal hell to be saved.
The last time I looked, it was belief in Jesus.
No it does not stop there, but unfortunately, that is where it does stop for 90% of believers. Discovering the Father's heart and truth is a continual process that never stops until we die.
I can say much more on this topic and may as the Holy Spirit leads, add to or post more later.
Be blessed in Christ
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| October 03, 2007 |
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I have to say I have read all of this and to get to the root of what I see as part of the problem is your take on Scripture not being inspired or "God Breathed". The word translated as "inspired" which literally means to "breathe in" is the wrong rendering for the Greek word. The Greek word would be better rendered "God breathed" or "ex-pired". God breathed out. Peter tells us that "holy men of God wrote as the Holy Spirit moved on them. Jesus, Peter, Paul, Luke, and other new testament writers had no problem quoting the Old Testament, this placing their stamp of approval on the OT Scriptures.
There are no contradictions in scripture. None. I challenge you to expound on any you feel there are. You point out I John 5:8, but fail to show us where the error is. Because few manuscripts have those words? How does that make it an error?
Your constant assertion that the Bible is just a book is simply wrong on the most elementary levels. The Bible is a collection of 66 books. Each book can stand on its own and yet fits intrinsically within the frame work of the other 65.
Textual Criticism has its merits, but if you are not careful, it will throw faith right out of the window.
You ask us to show you one verse that says we need to believe in a literal hell to be saved- you know there is not one. Yet, Jesus preached on Hell far more than Heaven. That alone should be enough to make one believe there is a literal Hell.
Your nose should be in the Bible, yet God throughout the entire Bible has used men to teach us what it means. Go figure. Like the Bereans, we should have enough discernment to search the scriptures and see if the things the men are saying are so. Much like this blog, we should be discerning enough to reply to such false and simplistic attacks on the Word of God. |
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| October 04, 2007 |
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Dear Youth Pastor
You obviously glazed over the article. I did say "it is a book recording the words of men inspired by God" you must have missed that
I stand by what I say, it is a book, pages within two covers, no magic, no divinity, nada.
It takes the Holy Spirit to bring it to life, I guess you missed that part too.
I did not say there are contradictions in the bible. I was talking against context only and interpretations influenced by teachings of man.
Prove to me how many times Jesus speaks of "hell" vs. Kindom of God/Heaven and take in the whole NT as the apostles and Paul were teaching what Jesus revealed/taught them.
Simple search on e-sword, use the KJV or the NKJV. That exercise needs not Holy Spirit Inspiration, mere mouse and typing skills.
God has used men to teach us things, but what do they teach? They teach what they were taught, modern times speaking last 200 years. So if one got it wrong, its all downhill from there.
Read the rapture post, see where that myth originated and how it has been embraced by evagelicals as "truth"
You infer what is said here on this blog is false, prove it.
Textual critisizm is not something I do to enhance my faith, my faith is solid. I do it to answer the prime question
"Where did it all go wrong?"
Because today, many follow the teachings of man instead of following the Teacher. Lazy? Yes most of them, I too was guilty of this.
I do not attack the Word of God, the bible is a book (logos) the Rhema WORD of God is very real and it don't just come from the bible. The bible is one of many sources of revelation.
I follow no man or any man's teachings - you probably missed that too.
I re-quote
Mat 23:10 Nor be called teachers, for One is your Teacher, even Christ. (MKJV)
But thank you for your comments, I will not delete them. |
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