I hear you, Mike.  We were in that position for a number of years.  Boy, was I ever impatient!  Boy, did I ever grow!

To those who are content with where God has placed them:  Give thanks to God, and pray for your church and pastors.

To those who are discontent:  Do the same. 

I wonder why pastors leave then?

And actually Mike I do have to take issues with your context.  I have a hard time believing that Paul who did a *whole* lot of walking between areas was talking about a physical church.  Are you married to the church or married to Jesus?

In any case, I'm not specifically trying to tell you to leave your church.  I have no interest in doing so. It's too easy to walk away when minor issues come up.  It's too easy to walk away when *major* issues come up.  But there does come a time when you have tried to work things out, when it's time.

Mike,

What are you giving me?  Hopefully not Scrapple.

And what your bolded section doesn't answer then is "What is a valid reason to leave a church?". 

Ok, so now I get to go the other way.

Is there a perfect church?

No.

Did Luther create a perfect church?

No.

Did Luther create a church that was perfect even for him.

No. 

Because it is made up of imperfect people (of which I freely admit, I am one).  If people are looking for a church that does everything right, they are going to be looking for a *long* time.

I'm still looking for a person who does everything right.  (Yeah, I mean besides *that* one). 

MIKE I HAVE GONE TO TWO DIFFERANT CHURCHES SINCE RETURNING TO THE LORD AND THE MOVE WAS GOD'S MOVE...I HAVE A STICK TO IT ATTITUDE MY MOTHER ALWAYS TOLD ME IF YOU KEEP JUMPING FROM ONE THING TO ANOTHER YOU WILL NEVER GET ANYTHING DONE. JUST MY THOUGHTS.......

Agreed, restore!!

Hey Tropical, I love your profile name. Wish I was a tropical guy! Regarding "churchianity", while I agree it's a problem, maybe even a big problem, I think the bigger problems lie with individuals who ignore God's call to "offer themselves as living sacrifices".

Many believers just leave their present churches in seach of green pastures in other churches, thinking that their present churches do not give them enough spiritual food and that in the new churches they can experience more of God.  Though we need to grow with other saints in the local churches, no local churches are perfect.  In every church organized church, there are some problems with their leaders.  The solution does not lie in going from one church to another but in walking close with our Lord and then having fellowship with the other saints.  The problem with many a christian is that they do not walk close with God but seek everything from their pastors or from their church leaders. Please click the following link to read my message in this regard.

Who can give God's messages?

I think we all agree no church is perfect. Sometimes we need to stay and other times we need to leave. Everytime we left a church it was because God led us that way. So how can you know, someone asked? This is how we knew.

The first time we suspected God was saying go but because we had so much invested there we resisted until things got so bad for us personally we realized we were being disobedient by staying. (Earlier we had stayed through a terrible crisis in the church.) The best way I know to say it is, "God's grace was no longer available to us in that place." 

The 2nd time God spoke to me first about leaving. My husband said, "No Way." I told him, "I'm just telling you what I heard. All I ask is you pray about it." 24 hours later he said, "You are right. We're supposed to go." So another way to know is you have strong confirmation. If you're married to a believer, then there should be agreement.

The 3rd and last time involved not just a change of church but a major move. That time we asked God to show us through unmistakeable circumstances, specifically by selling our house at a fair price w/o us putting it on the market. And it happened! In a matter of hours.

Our present church is awesome and we love where we live. Turns out some of the favor in the sale of our house came because our present elders were praying, "Lord send us the people who are supposed to be here."

When we left our childhood church to go to our new home church it was very much the same. Especially for me, I mean who leaves the church you grew up with to go to church with your in-laws. Especially when your father inlaw is one of the Pastors at your new church and your mother in-law is very critial of you. But God called us there and the pull was so strong there was no fighting it. Everytime we did and went back to our old church we felt God telling us, you are grown up now and I'm telling you to leave and I will provide you the meat you need to sustain at your new home church.  It was tough but we listened and I am so HAPPY and BLESSED

Seems to me much like any other relationship.  Marriage statistics show that all is blissful for about a year, until we get to know each other well enough to see all the flaws.  Marriages often end after one year or after seven.  Then we are ready to find that relationship that got away, the one without flaws.  Only to find the same thing happens with the next one.  And the next one . . .

My analogy is flawed though, as there are times when God does nudge us to move to a different church, maybe for our contentment, probably more often for some other reason unbeknownst to us.  And when He nudges, we should listen, but also realize that the next church, no matter how perfect will be flawed in a year, or seven, as we get to know it more intimately.  

Sometimes I see my church squeezing the wrong end of the toothpaste or looking disheveled as it gets up, or desperately needing mouthwash - and like you, I think about leaving.  But I remind myself of my own flaws and just hope that I will know when it is God nudging me and not just me.  I can relate, Mike!  A prayer for you!

Mike, great thoughts.  I tried to respond the other night and my internet connection went bye-bye.  Ah, you got to love technology.

 We have been at the same church since we were married 20 years ago.  There have been ups and downs at this church and I have  asked the same questions you were posing.  I too wrestled with being in a church that I didn't want to be in for my own personal reasons.  There were a lot of people that were leaving but when my wife and I prayed about it, we were never released to go.  Partly I saw God using us in the 2 ministries we were involved in (youth & small groups).

I am not saying that it is wrong to go to another church.  I would say it has to do with the motivation.  If the reason to leave is preference, I would say be careful.  If the reason is God is calling you to another ministry where you can use your gifts, then that is another story.  It seems to me that the question on leaving is: "Are you running away or are you being led?" 

As far as preference, my wife and I enjoy a church with fantastic teaching and contemporary worship.  We have been blessed to be involved with a church that is very mission minded.  My kids have been to South Africa, Canada, Mexico, and various state side locations such as Colorado, New Mexico, South Texas and locally in Dallas.  I have had the priveledge to be involved in teenagers lives for 20 years.  

Am I able to sing God's praises when it is not popular?  Am I able to sing God's praises in a part of the world where I am all alone as well as a stadium full of people praising God like in Passion? 

So what am I saying?  I guess I am saying I can relate to your questions.  Follow God's leading with all your heart. I am talking to myself in all of this, and I pray that we all follow God each day with all of our heart so that one day we will hear "Well Done, Good and Faithful Servant."

 Blessings

            As to church hopping, well in 35 years I’ve been in two churches. One was an intentional Evangelical Orthodox community. 150+ families in the same neighborhood, committed to living together and pursuing God in a unique “new testament’ fashion. When, after my divorce, I finally left that church I searched hard until I found where I was at. Like Shannon (same church), I almost left this last year. I also had to figure out that people, even leaders you really look up to, are imperfect. But then again, so am I, I found we were a good fit as “sinners together pursuing our perfection”. I also found out that our Pastor held the vision for our church (something like a lamppost in our midst), and that I was either with him or outside of the church. I had to become like David’s mighty men, either stand with him, or stand against him, and then let God sort out the details. I stood with him!

            God has a lot to teach us, but places like this, where we get to discuss these issues with both fervor and love, they allow the church to become more like her Beloved. We will never be in the first century again, we will never be in the time of Luther, or Calvin, or Wigglesworth, or whoever. We are in the now, we need to love His bride, both in the ethereal and in the physical. She is both people and buildings, we need to be caretakers of both, and we need to let each one shine. You notice that God isn’t going to plant us in the clouds, but in a city. SO he must think there is value to the physical as with the personal.

Perhaps you are still there because of Whom you are there to Worship...
Just a thought

It has always been my experience that the glory never departs the believer, it is always the believer that retreats from the Lord! Kind of like in the Garden; "And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" God is faithful, we are not. :-)

Perhaps it is still...  all about God.  Not us and our needs, but about serving God and His people, not worrying about anything else

Mike & Jack, (this might deserve a whole new thread)

 I encountered the term "CEO Pastor" in the late 1990's. This was promoted in some seminaries and leadership magazines claiming that when a church was at the 800 member plateau, a full time paid pastor was needed to be chairman of the church, or CEO.  I can understand the coordination and ongoing management of the church on a daily basis might need to be a full time position.  I just have never bought into the world model of a business as the pastor as the head or the CEO. 

The Pastor of todays church often is involved in administrative/leadership duties.  He should be focussing on the ministry of the Word and defintely has a voice in the administration of the church, but I do not think that means he is in charge.  There is only one head of the Church and that is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Here is an interesting link that discusses the CEO Pastor:

Pastor as CEO

And here is another interesting article:

Your Pastor:Shepherd or CEO? 

1. Just as  God has called each of us, he has also called us to be in a church.

2. We need not leave our church to go to another church for the sake of teachings and messages.

3. My experience is even when a pastor is not a very good 'orator', the lessons which are read in the church and the 'hymns' we sing in the church convey all the messages that God wants us to listen to.

4. If one feels that he has grown up spiritually, its his responsiblility to develop his fellow church members and not move towards another church with believers of same temperament, because God has called every one to spread the gospel to others. Paul was called to preach to the 'gentiles' and Peter was called to preach to the 'Jews'

5. The scripture (Jesus ) says 'Love' is the focus of  the path we should take- Loving God and neighbours. The scripture ( Paul ) also says, if we have everything and no love we are like metals making empty noises.

6. I think ' going to a particular church' is  less important than caring for other people around us ('neighbours') with our 'faith' and sharing the gospel to them.

7. Which ever church we are in, God has that church for a purpose and not feel inferior about it.

God Bless all of us 

Hi Angel,

The Bible never tells us to be in the 'right' church. Jesus christ himself was in Galilea and Samaria, where the so called 'lesser people' lived.  He also said, only 'sick people' need 'doctor'. So if any one says I am a better believer than the other and if my church is the right church than the other, its like I am superior to him and my  church is superior to that church, which sounds like spiritual arrogance. But if we apply the law of Jesus, to love our neighbour, we will be matured enough to accept our neighbour in whatever condition he is and help him grow spiritually.  These kind of people are everywhere, in all the churches, in all cities and in all villages.

'Jews' and 'Gentiles' in today's contest are 'christians' and 'non christians'.

I would not even use the word non christian! I may be discriminating!!

As long as any denomination is based on the Bible, it is acceptable. Learning from members of all denominations there are so many areas where we all can come together and still say, 'I belong to Jesus' and 'His Kingdom'.  Once you say that, the law of Jesus should take over. This is his commandment as written in John 13:34  And now I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Paul reiterates saying as in  1Cor. 13:13  Meanwhile these three remain: faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love. He also encourages us to apply the law of christ as said in Gal 6:2  Help carry one another's burdens, and in this way you will obey the law of Christ. 

May God Bless us all 

Folks!, in my opinion, all churches are ok as long as they are based on the Bible.

1. The anglicans focus on the Lord's supper.

2.  The Presbyterians manage the church through the order of Presbyters.

3. The Pentecostals Praise and Worship.

4. The methodists are methodical.

5. The Baptist says you must repent and be baptised

6. The seventh day adventist says Keep the sabboth holy.

7. The Jehova's Witness say Jehova is God.

In my understanding the Bible says everything is right. But we say only my church is right. Here is the difference.  This is the basic reason why all of us are uncomfortable.  We have to search our own hearts based on the Bible and realise ourselves.  The point is we need not desert the church we go to, because it has been established by the Holy spirit, otherwise the churches would have vanished in 2000 years time.  We must accept people from other denominations accept their view and be inclusive.  If I can not love and accept a fellow christian, how can you expect me to love and accept a peron of other faith ( read non christian)? 

Andy - Very good point.  I love it when we are one in spirit.  One time we realized that our Youth Team consisted of very different people from all sorts of denominations and walks of life.  We would not have been friends if we were to meet on the street.  Yet when we were involved in serving in this youth group, God did an amazing thing.  We spent a lot of time praying for each other and the ministry (a few hours every monday night).  Our hearts became knitted together in spite of our limitations and differences that could rub each other wrong.  God is so good.

My prayer is that the Church will be known as a house of prayer and that we would be of one mind.  Then we can be relevant to this culture and reach out with the truth of the Gospel, the only true hope.

I am a pastor that has just joined MyChurch and I have a pastor frind on facebook that posted this message thought it was neat might fit.YOUR CHURCH

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE THE KIND OF A CHURCH

LIKE THE KIND OF CHURCH YOU LIKE,

YOU NEEDN’T PUT YOUR CLOTHES IN A CASE

AND START ON A LONG, LONG HIKE.

YOU’LL ONLY FIND WHAT YOU LEFT BEHIND

FOR THERE’S NOTHING THAT’S REALLY NEW

IT’S A KNOCK AT YOURSELF WHEN YOU KNOCK THE CHURCH

IT ISN’T THE CHURCH…IT’S YOU

REAL CHURCHES AREN’T MADE BY MEN AFRAID

LEST SOMEONE ELSE GETS AHEAD,

WHEN EVERYONE WORKS AND NOBODY SHIRKS

YOU CAN RAISE A CHURCH FROM THE DEAD.

AND IF WHILE YOU MAKE YOUR PERSONAL STAKE

YOUR NEIGHBOR CAN MAKE ONE, TOO.

YOUR CHURCH WILL BE WHAT YOU WANT IT TO BE

IT ISN’T THE CHURCH…IT’S YOU

Adapted from “YOUR TOWN” BY Kiwanis President from Ohio, BY RICHARD L. CHAMBERS MEMBER OF DRESDEN OH KIWANIS 2006-07

Hope you enjoy,
Toby

Hi Lily,

You say there is one church- which is the body of Christ- I fully agree with you.  But why then Jesus himself says that he will build his church on Peter?  Secondly in the book of revelations, Jesus sends messages to the angel of the 7 churches?  If the church is one, then why should Jesus himself communicate to the 7 different churches.  You must understand the physical and spiritual nature of the church.  When we refer to denominations we refer to the physical nature. The spiritual nature of the church is we all belong to the body of christ which is only one one. That is the unifying factor.  I am in India and I presume you are from the United states. My fore fathers were non christians. It was by the work of the holy spirit, some missionary travelled from the United Kingdon to the southern most part of India and shared the love of christ to my ancestors probably 200 years ago. Still my grandfather became a christian about 100 years ago. Now if I say that my grandfather didnot belong to the right church and I need to change the church, I think I am not professing the right faith, whereas I believe that it was the work of the holy spirit that changed my grandfathers heart who became a christian about 100 years back.

The point is what we should do to spread the gospel of Jesus to those who havent heard about him.  How is that we would impact them. 

I feel we as christians have failed to communicate the love and peace of Jesus to all others.  A good church will encourage the members to share the love and peace of Jesus. A good church will encourage its members to share love and peace with others.

Today, we need to introspect. Our conscience will tell us where we are.  My conscience tells me  that I am inadequate. 

Wow, all this decision!  Cool!

    11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

    12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),

    13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [[b]full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.

Long ago I discovered scripture that the choice was GOD's not mine. What peace there is when the flesh is taken out of such an important decision and it is soley GOD's.

Deuteronomy 12

5 But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:

6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

7 And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.

8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

10 But when ye go over Jordan, and dwell in the land which the LORD your God giveth you to inherit, and when he giveth you rest from all your enemies round about, so that ye dwell in safety;

11 Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD:

12 And ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God, ye, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite that is within your gates; forasmuch as he hath no part nor inheritance with you.

13 Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest:

14 But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

.....peace.....

LOL!!! Waht a great discussion. Here's a dillemma I didn't see introduced. I moved to a new state & town 4 years ago, and there's no doubt God's hand was all over the move. We're here, we're doing great, but there's no church that God is calling me to here. In a community of 400 families, it should be easy. There's seven churches - all totally intolerant of Christ (and each other). I'm not a church hopper by nature, and I believe very much in staying within the community - meaning I have no desire to hop over to other communities (the closest community is 20 miles away, the closest city is 90 mies away).

Over 4 years I've become quite comfortable with my personal worship time, and I find that I am able to minister to others  where I work. I don't feel like anything's missing till I read messages like this. Naw, not really, I don't feel anything missing, so that's not quite correct. I do miss the service I was able to provide at the church I left back home, tho. I had small groups meeting in my home when I first moved here, but turned out they were all folks who had problems with their home church here in town that were healed and returned. That was a fun ministry for awhile. 

Well, I'll watch here for notes if anyone has stories to make me think deeper about this dilemma. I'm content, and not used to being content =:-) 

Hi Soos, glad to meet you.  I too wonder what you mean by intolerant of Christ.  I do sense you are frustrated with the churches you have come into contact with. 

It sounds good that you are having a good personal worship time.  I would just say that you should be involved in a group of believers because we can't do well as lone ranger Christians for long. 

I don't know your situation, but I do know that we are encouraged to meet together.  I pray that you are able to find a group of fellow believers that you can fellowship with.

Your brother in Christ, Brent 

Brent - thanks. You sense some of my frustration in finding fellow believers to worship with. I am privileged to be working with fellow believers that believe in provoking me "unto love and good works", and I am blessed by them daily.

Also, I may have mispoken a bit. By intolerant to Christ I did not mean that they did not pray or invite Christ into their own private Sunday clubs - that's happening. What I meant was they are intolerant of strangers, and other Christians who have a different label than they have (the other churches around town). This intolerance toward the body of Christ is what I was speaking of. 

Thanks for taking the time to provoke me toward a clearer explanation. Since I have pastored a church in the past, I have considered planting here, but haven't been shown any open doors yet. And that's okay. I've held group studies in my home, and will hold group studies in my home, and if it turns out people are healed to return to the places they've worshipped before, that's fine with me. This is a tiny town (6 high school graduates a year), and strangers to these parts seem to remain strangers to these parts for at least 3 generations. At least, I've been told that by the locals. =:-) 

Mike & Brent -

Miracles are alive still. You said you'd pray for my town 2 nights ago. Today at the post office I was approached by a woman (Pat) whom I've worked with in VBS. She wants to start a weekly meeting with youth in an apartment complex near here to keep VBS going all year round for the kids, but outside of the confines of a church building. She wants to meet outside at a small park near the apartments.

She asked for my help and I immediately said yes not because I wanted to; but because I knew you folks are praying for us and that it's God doing this, not me. I know for a fact that the last thing I want in my life is another "obligation", and because of my own desires I'm reasonably sure this is God speaking, not her. Fascinating, I'm floating high on the power of prayer - not just that prayer works, I always knew that, but how fast the prayers worked!

Thanks for your prayers for our town!!! - Rich