Ian Grant Spong
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Shepherdless Sheep
||October 20, 2007|1013 reads
 

To add a comment to "Shepherdless Sheep"
R B
October 20, 2007

Hey Grant,

I was going to send this to you in private, but found your private messages are only received by signed up friends. - 

This is my take on what you have written, sorry if it sounds critical, but I do not know of any other way to share it. First, I'm picking on a point (not you), and then I'd like to comment and remind myself and you, about the rest of the central theme of your writing.

First there are some proofs that 'religion (religio)' from the original texts, means to "bind one up." If this is true... then Jesus didn't have religion, He instead is our freedom from religion, and our New Life fueled by the Spirit.


As for the rest of your article (and I say this to myself as much as I say it to you), if we would redeem this time (more), by focusing on the things above (being transformed by the renewing of our minds), we would BE these leaders, and give others something authentic to see and long for.


Just my thoughts about it, R...  

mstovall2003
October 20, 2007
Jesus Christ is NOT A RELIGION. Man created RELIGIONS...
I comment on this blog not with scriptures in hand but from my heart. I WORSHIP JESUS, not the leaders of my church. I come before MY LORD each time I enter the doors of my church. I could care less what they do with my tithes, offerings, etc. because that is on them. The gifts were given out of obediance and love.  I look to MY FATHER for the WORD that he wants me to hear(truth).

I hear your fustration(sic).. My leadership, Grant is the WORD....
Ian Grant Spong
October 21, 2007
Every time I hear that Christianity is not a religion, I automatically think of James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

The Bible uses the word religion to describe Christianity. So, I don't know why we are redefining the word. Perhaps we ought to use some other word to describe legalistic, Pharisaic, authoritarian or counterfeit Christianity other than religion.
Ian Grant Spong
October 21, 2007
R, thank you for your thoughts. I looked it up in various online dictionaries and understand your argument. Certainly there is that aspect of the etymology of the word that implies binding, but other sources imply that it comes from relegare meaning to "read again." However, etymology does not mean that is how a word is used today. Words change meaning. Just take the word "gay" for an example of that one.

MSToval, thank you also for your kind contribution. I hear it said a lot today, that Jesus did not found a religion, that's what men do, but that definition is itself also a definition of men. I prefer the definition of James 1:27 for religion.

TEE, you are so right. I am angry because I have witnessed so much wrong in the name of Christianity. However, there are also so many good people in the Christian churches, all of them. What, however, my comment was, was particularly meant to be an expounding of a passage of Scripture which also exposed some of the wrongs in religious leaders and the right that Christ was doing. So, really, I could not avoid discussing an application of that for today, just to be nicey nice. I do believe that Jesus IS  in charge of his church and thank you for the reminder of that.

Jack, I appreciate your zeal, but I do believe that like God taught Elijah, there are 70,000 out there or by today's world population, perhaps 70 million, who have not bowed the knee to Baal (read "a false Lord").

777, thank you as well. Please see my comment above on the word religion, as per James 1:27.
Pastor_Ken_and_Aminata
October 21, 2007
As a woman, a Pastor, a leader in God's Church, (this alone brings out the haters), I share this burden of witnessing the apostosy,  the binding of our Lord's children by those who rob God of His Glory, leading His sheep to pastures that are deceptively green. 

I have learned so much from being apart of MyChurch in such a short time, and have to come to understand why others feel and do what they do.   Yet, each of us have to come to our own conclusion of the matter and move forward from there.   We cannot see and not see, and know and not know at the same time, rather we are to strain with our thougths, questions and observations while studying His Word to get clearer understanding.  I believe many of us have been deeply hurt (Lord knows I have and continue to be so) by our religious institutions in one way or another, yet I cannot quit, for the fire of the Holy Spirit within me, does not afford me that luxury.   " Isn't it about time that we (the leaders)  looked to Jesus to teach us about his religion (in order to teach it according to His Word)?"

Pastor Aminata
Ian Grant Spong
October 21, 2007
I love honest and repentant and humble leaders! Wow! What an example you set Aminata! Thank you!
Ian Grant Spong
October 21, 2007
I have seen so much of exactly what you are talking about. One day, if I trust people enough, I will tell the whole story. I've been on both sides of that fence you are talking about. And it hurts so badly, but one thing I know for sure, like the disciples told Christ at one point, "Where else can we go?" There is no where else but Christ and his dearly beloved, faulty, divided church, even as bad as it hurts sometimes.
R B
October 21, 2007

Hey Grant,

I'm not sure where you are finding that, so I still want to punctuate what Dr. Norman B. Harrison states and what the Strongs bears out as true. There are 7 times in the N.T. (KJV), that the Greek is translated into English using the word religion or religious. -  Everytime the Greek and Latin (4), put into English those words, they always have a negative thought behind them.  -  I agree...  Jesus didn't come to improve religion, or give us another one. He came, so that He could live His Life, in and through us. That's not religion... that's Life.

Today in the Church assembly, everything is pre-planned and that is not Life either. If the Church would conduct (and return) it's gatherings, using the model practiced in 1 Cor. 14; that would be more Life-like than what most of us are use-to.

I invite anyone to check out my discussion about it. 

http://www.mychurch.org/blog/24201/Can-You-Explain-This-a-1-Cor14-discussion

Ian Grant Spong
October 21, 2007
There's a very good discussion of 1 Corinthians 14 in the New International Commentary on the New Testament (NICNT). If there is a seminary or Bible college near you, they may have it in their reference library. It takes a long time to read, but is very well worth reading.
Ian Grant Spong
October 22, 2007

Let me see Jack, how many rules is that? I sort of lost count.

Ian Grant Spong
October 23, 2007
Jack, I might modify that to some extent. When it comes to understanding the Bible, that's open to all of us, but I do notice that the Ethiopian Eunuch actually was humble enough to admit that he could not understand unless some man teach him. I believe that is the mechanism that God has installed in the Church, that we all need a "mentor" if you care, someone who has superior understanding of the way, who is actually "qualified" to pass that on to us. Now we only need someone who knows one thing more than us to tell us that. We don't need a ThD to teach a new believer.

However, we do need a ThD to teach a Master, and a Master to teach a Bachelor, and a Bachelor to teach a high school student, and a high school student to teach a grade school student, and a grade school student to teach a new believer. Obviously my analogy has limits, but I'm speaking spiritually here. I'm actually describing a graduated scale of belief rather than the two-tier system you allude to: lay vs clergy.

I am however, not saying that the clergy-lay distinction is invalid. I believe it is very valid. I would prefer a mature-immature distinction. Some of the mature have actually a lifetime, fulltime calling on their lives and some of the mature are simply older Christians, who may also have a great deal of informal education in Scripture under their belt. There is no sharp line between the two in my opinion, as some clergy are lesser educated than some older church members, especially the more wacky preachers.

The biggest objection to the model you present is in my opinion that it seems to deny the power of Jesus to run his own Church as he sees fit. It makes vigilantes the heroes, who do what Jesus could not do, fix his Church. Granted, some are called by Jesus as "prophets" if you care, to give stern correction of the Church, but some just have a plain hyper-critical, know-it-all spirit. Discerning the difference is very important for people like you and me. Has Jesus authorized our words or are they just our own?
R B
October 23, 2007

At the risk of going backwards, I want to ask Grant a question.
 

Grant wrote, "there is a very good discussion of 1 Corinthians 14 in the New International Commentary on the New Testament (NICNT). If there is a seminary or Bible college near you, they may have it in their reference library. It takes a long time to read, but is very well worth reading."

Hey Grant, if you got something wothwhile out of it; can't you highlight what those things are in your own words?  I hate to think that we spend so much time on reading a lengthy opinion, but at the end we have nothing more to say than, "I think others should read it." -  Why should anyone read... what we are unable to put into our own words?  How can we claim that the material was useful if we didn't internalize it?

Only one answer I guess, that I would be looking for, "was the writing for or against using the 1 Cor. 14 model in today's assembly?"  If not, "why not?"   Thanks, R...

Mike n Laura
October 23, 2007
When Paul says "the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God", he doesn't mean knowledge is worthless, nor does he advocate a level field w/respect to all spiritual knowledge. Peter exhorts us to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Some are more mature than others, and those of us who are less mature can learn from them. This is innately hierarchical. The NT is full of references to this voluntary structure. The Church has embraced it for centuries, to its benefit!
Mike n Laura
October 23, 2007
Oh Restore, come to us, come..... :-)
Hope
October 23, 2007
I posted my comment on my site for I know that some do not like long comments on their sites.  I do not mind long comments at all.  For to me it shows that the blog was read and all the comments and one took the time to address each point.

Very good post/blog.  I agree.
Ian Grant Spong
October 23, 2007
Jack, I have learned so much from those with a high degree of learning in Bible and I despise the intellectually lazy approach that says, "I don't need a Bible education, the Holy Spirit will teach me." The reason is, because I have seen too much rubbish blamed on the Holy Spirit.

R, in a word, 1 Corinthians 14 is only one of dozens of Bible models for church worship. It is not universally applicable.

Mike, the hierarchical structure is certainly the most popular approach to church polity. It can be used for great good. It certainly is the structure in heaven.

Restore, sadly that is soooooo common.