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| Love is... difficult! |
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I am commanded to love God (Deut 6:5, Mat 22:37, Mk 12:30) and love my neighbors (Mat 22:39, Mk 12:31). I am even commanded to love my enemies (Mat 5:44)! Love is an important command!!
The problem is, people interpret love many different ways. What feels like love to one person may not feel so much like love to another. Generally speaking,
- to women, love is being cherished or treasured.
- to men, love is the feeling of being respected.
- to girls, love is being protected by someone.
- to boys, love is being taught how to take on responsibility, then being given some.
- parents express love by sharing practical knowledge and administering discipline.
- the same parents see their children’s love for them expressed through obedience and thoughtfulness.
- to a child, love is the caring attention of their parents.
Then on top of this list, factor in the notion that all individuals give and receive love according to five different “love languages”, or ways that individuals understand or interpret love emotionally, and you wind up with a myriad of different ways people feel loved. So not only do I have to fight through my own selfish tendencies in order to express love, but I also have to figure out how other folks interpret love! This is a difficult task even on my best days!
So back to the command. The question becomes, does God expect me to love in ways which I determine to be love, or as the recipients of my “love” perceive it? The former may satisfy my own conscience, but if the recipient doesn’t feel loved, have I really obeyed God’s command to love at all? |
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| To add a comment to "Love is... difficult!" |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Hi Mike. I am so glad to post my comment first. You have hit the nail on the head once more. The 'love' that you have mentioned above and how God wants us to 'love' is a little different. Any how I like this topic because I feel many christians today have misunderstood the basics. Your discussions will bring out the differences and finally we can summarise what we christians around the world should do to love neighbours and enemies. Kudos! Great topic. |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Wow...this is deep. Hmmm...I think that it is how God perceives to what love is. He does say that He is Love afterall. Nowadays the word love is overrated and overused. The best example of love is the sacrifice of Christ, but to some that may not seem like it is love. (That is why they are not saved yet). So as I said, my friend, I think that you need to ask yourself does your "love" reflect who God is and would God think that these actions would be classified as love.
~Jeremy |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike don't confused apples with oranges. God's love with man's verison of love are not the same. Yes I know and have conducted workshops from the 5 Love Languages... however, we will never fall short if we simply love the way the bible instructs us.
Each of your New Testament scriptures uses the exact same word in the Greek for Love... agapao - the agape - unconditional love.
| G25 | agapaō | ä-gä-pä'-ō | love, beloved | | G26 | agapē | ä-gä'-pā | love, charity, dear, charitably, feast of charity | | G5360 | philadelphia | fē-lä-del-fē'-ä | brotherly love, brotherly kindness, love of the brethren | | G5361 | philadelphos | fē-lä'-del-fos | love as brethren | | G5362 | philandros | fē'-län-dros | love their husbands | | G5363 | philanthrōpia | fē-län-thrō-pē'-ä | kindness, love toward man | | G5365 | philargyria | fē-lär-gü-rē'-ä | love of money | | G5368 | phileō | fē-le'-ō | love, kiss | | G5383 | philoprōteuō | fē-lo-prō-tyü'-ō | love to have the preeminence | | G5388 | philoteknos | fē-lo'-tek-nos | love (one's) children |
I believe that as long as we insist on having our own way, do our own thing, as we deem right, we will always miss the mark.
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Hi P.A, I appreciate your input, but please clarify. I am familiar w/phileo/eros/agape. The problem is, from a practical standpoint, what the heck is love?? "God's love" is too general. I try to love w/God's love and my wife says, "I don't want to watch football with you!!" Because you see, to me, doing things together, like watching a football game, is love in action! Or I think I am loving her when I bring her flowers or a box of chocolates. But she says, "Oh, that's nice." Then two days later, "Why haven't you done this, this, and this? You don't love me!" You see, we must define love in human terms. (I believe...in order to be practical....love in action....speak their language, etc.)
So again, if this isn't connecting, please help me understand where you are coming from! :-)
~your ever-loving brother in Christ |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Hey Ragland, thanks so much! I see you see the differences I think I see. (huh?) Anyway, great comment!
Jeremy, good point, many don't understand Christ's sacrifice as an act of love. Heck, that's a great point! Further illustrates how love is in the eye of the..... recipient! Ah, but in the case of Jesus' sacrifice, God expresses his love and he expects us to recognize it as love, doesn't he? Hmm, anyone want to touch on this? |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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I think if people try to approach acts of love based on definition...they are already screwing up. If I choose within myself what love is and then act towards you in that light all I am doing is pleasing myself...
What do I mean?? Well counsel a few broken couples and you realize that love is probably the most poorly communicated action. One feels that their dedication to providing is an act of love but the other views it as being neglectful towards intimacy...it can drive one crazy...
So what then...simple, I think. If one does and act of "love" towards another but defines that act from a self view...one is not loving the other b/c the greatest act of love is lay oneself down...does this make sense? I cannot show my wife love by buying her a football. That seems ridiculous but that is usually what we do to eachother and to God.
With God we show Him our love by our dedication to the church...and to eachother...but that is not what He asks for yet when you speak to a "washed out" Christian, they will rant and rave about how much they did for God and how He has now failed them...
Oh boy, I hope that made sense |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Well done then, we're thinking alike! |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike - I have some thoughts on this but they are slightly jumbled due to too much time on the internet tonight (getting stuff lined out for my trip) and it being my bedtime. If I feel like I can be more coherent tomorrow, you'll hear from me. (Even if it's only to say: "Yeah, I agree with so-and-so's comment! That's what I was gonna say!) Until then...good topic of discussion you've brought up here. Also: I am (what I think is) like your wife, in that I equate my husband's willingness to take care of things (that I don't want to take care of or simply can't or have asked him to handle) for me as a sign of his love for me. :-) But then, I tend to show my love/caring to others through service/help to them. Also gift giving, in a random way. Those are my love languages, I guess. (Never read the book, but know about it.) It's actually easier to figure out the love thing with mankind than with God, isn't it? |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike,
God wants us to see Christ's sacrifice as love, but He knows that many will not. For if we all looked at it as love, then I think more of us would be truly saved and say Surely this was the Son of God.
Here is another question to ask youself in your quest to find out what love truly is:
Am I willing to give my life up for what/who I love?
Wife....Kids...Family....Friends....Football (lol) ....
For there is no greater love than to lay down a life for a friend. All these other definitions about love do not even compare or come close. True love has no pleasure in it, but only sacrifice.
Now with that being said...maybe the right thing to do is to be careful in what/who you say you truly love. And do you mean it when you say it?
~Jeremy |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike/WebYouthPastor, if you all plan to stay up late - I can hang. Let do this a bit at a time. Love is in my opinion the most misunderstood word today. Why, because we blend the definitions (God's Love which is surely not general) with (man's verison of Love). So Mike give me one question at a time and let's see how it goes.
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Consumed B - True love has no pleasure in it, but only sacrifice. Are you sure you mean this? God gave His only Son and had no pleasure in doing so? That's not how I read His Word.
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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hehe, I can hang for a few...
Love must be expressed to other people in a way the recipients understand as love, right? In fact, our desire and willingness to do this might even be considered love to God, who commands us to love our neighbor (but in humility consider others better than yourselves).
It sounds as if you are putting love into two categories -- man defined and God defined... |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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I wish I could hang bud but people have this thing about wanting their painting done...well...right. So with that I will bid you goodnight.
Jeremy, well spoken. Even if it is difficult, it is still worth the effort. Plus, for the married folks, the making up part can definitely be worth the misunderstanding. HAHA
Goodnight insomniacs |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Yeh, Jeremy I didn't see the no pleasure part. Perhaps you meant that seeking pleasure cannot be the motive when attempting an act of love but I do believe you would agree that pleasure often results when operating in love |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike - Love (agape) is a selfless act. Now take it from there. We were not raised, or socialized to understand this notion. Everything about us, our very sin nature, says, it's all about me, which is the very opposite of God's type of love. Now even when we do acts of kindness, most times we are still doing out of self-gratification. In other words, it pleases me, to please you. Sounds good doesn't it. But it falls short of the mark.
Pastor Aminata
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Hey, that is what I said...kind of |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Love must be expressed to other people in a way the recipients understand as love, right? Wrong. Love must be expressed the way God commands us to do so. Doesn't mean other people will understand it.
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Hi Mike, what a blog...
Really I have come to the conclusion that with people, I will take what love I can get because no human will ever be able to love me the way God does. In return, I tryto love the way that God loves me. There is doubt that I stumble about doing this, but I try... I have faith that love goes in circles.
There is something about the way God loves me, that no one, including my precious husband, measure up to. I think that is... God knows me, because He really listens - He's really in tune with me so much that He knows me much better than I know myself.
My husband I had a conversation this summer. We both agree. We love God more than we love each other. We thought that is amazingly beautiful. I will tender. |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Pastor Aminata, I totally get what you're saying. In a way, I think that thought was captured in the blog. And as I said in the prev. comment, to begin to love another person pragmatically I must go about it with the intention to agape them -- like Phil 2 says, consider their interests (version of love) in place of my own.
And like you said, in another words though, love is... difficult! |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike yes difficult it is because.... we must be desocialized! From this point forward I will use the word agape so as not to confused it with the other versions of love. Doing the agape is a process. We must first allow the Holy Spirit to produce the agape within us. Gal 5:22. The more we allow the Holy Spirit to control our lives, the easier it will be to do the agape. Does this make sense?
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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love is... difficult! Also we are not accustomed to the concept of "selfless" many of us are still in denial, we ain't trying to give up self.
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Joey, great point, and a very spiritually mature thing to acknowledge -- loving God more than spouse. But I am sure that you are only able to love (agape) your husband because you love God! Thanks for the great comment! ~mike |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Oh, just saw your 12:26 comment, Pastor Aminata. Yes, that makes complete sense. I've probably even said that very thing numerous times.
Question. You said "Love must be expressed the way God commands us to do so" AND at 12:18 you said love does not need to be expressed in a way recipients understand. I'm sorry but I have to ask a hard question. What specifically does the standard template for love expressed the way God commands look like? Please be specific. |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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What specifically does the standard template for love expressed the way God commands look like? Please be specific.
Jesus Christ
He is to be our role-model for the agape. Any other concept will fall short. As we learn of him, understand him, and I believe we can do this... we too can give agape. Mike I don't think God would command us to do something we weren't capable of doing. Our nature is yes, but.... this is how we are most of the time. Yes Lord I love you but... let's be practical. See my point?
PA (cause I hate to write) |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| I think we must 'love' others ('neighbours') without expecting something back in terms of 'favour'. When you actually put this to practise, it is very difficult. It is very easy to quote the scripture and tell others too, but when I try to do something out of the way for a total stranger, my innermost being asks me, 'hey why you need to do this?". This means I have to grow up still. |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Pastor Aminata, it seems I am dwelling in the practical realm while you are in the spiritual. I am afraid your post doesn't really answer the question I asked. Does this seem like a fair characterization? |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| hehe, may I use "PA" too? :-) |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike - you are making my point... I am talking about the practical realm. That's why we miss it the majority of the time. We think God's way is not practical. This is just what our daughter Ashley said to her father and I last week regarding faith. We was telling her that she has to have faith in regards to what College she wants to attend. Her response was, "Ok, but let's be practical about this." I think we have a problem here.
PA |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Jonathan Edwards was a legendary man of God, known in fact for his deep love for God. He knew about agape. Yet he struggled to love his wife. In the book Married to a Difficult Man, the story of Sarah Edwards' endurance in marriage is told. An amazing book, says Laura (the other half of this profile).
Charles Stanley, one of the greatest teachers of the modern era, also knows agape well. Yet his wife divorced him several years ago, because he struggled to love her in practical ways the made her feel loved.
Perhaps the problem with the blog is I didn't explain that I was intentionally speaking pragmatically. The point is, in order to agape someone, you need to know their specific needs in the relationship. Most people call that a need to be "loved". So Gary Chapman and others would urge us to express our agape in specific ways that fulfill their need to be "loved", fulfilling their specific needs in the relationship. I struggle with this, as I think many many people do. Given the examples of Edwards and Stanley, even great men of God struggle with this. If only they had read my blog! :-) |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Mike- you are still missing it. Jonathan Edwards, and my man Charles Stanley, yes they knew the agape, doesn't mean they did it. We can know something but still not do what we know. Agreed? I challenging you to think about the words you use, pragmatic, practical... as if Jesus wasn't. He was the epitome of pragmatism.
One of the purpose of the "What If" exercise, is for all who choose to struggle with understanding the walk of Jesus in our day and time. I don't know if you read the blog, but it's very interesting. In order to understand the agape, we have to struggle and I mean struggle to understand Jesus. So what better way than to walk with him, as one of His disciples? (you can still become a disciple.. it's not too late). I believe it will be well worth the trip.
Of course the agape is difficult and will be as long as you believe it is something beyond your capablities.
PA |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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PA, I'm saying perhaps they (Edwards & Stanley) did indeed try! Maybe they agape'd their hearts out!! They simply expressed it in ways their wives didn't see as agape. Also, I'm not saying Jesus is impractical! Our misunderstanding here seems comical to me now.
I don't believe agape is beyond my capabilities, well, I admitted it's difficult, like you said (and I agree!) it's a process. It's called growing in Christlikeness. Right? I suspect every reader will agree it's difficult. The lightning bolt for me came when I realized that I can love my wife with everything I've got, and yet it is possible she still won't feel loved!! Guess I need to poll her to find out what she needs, specifically! (NONE of your posts have offered specifics, none! And they shouldn't, because every recipient of love has different specific needs!!)
PA, I love you, and I thank you for the time you devoted to this frustratingly fun dialogue! (It was fun, wasn't it?) God bless! I'm going to bed, catch up w/ya tomorrow. ~mike |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Agape: It isn't if you tell them in plain old english
Agape is free. It is love meaning that nothing is expected in return. That is the beautiful thing about it. In this age, people think everything has a price tag.
I give you brownies. Now you think you need to give me something. I agape you brownies. I gave you love without expecting anything in return. |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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| Brownies? Thank you! |
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| October 24, 2007 |
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Sleep well my friend - I believe you finally got it.
Love ya back and yes it was fun... that's because you're a fun guy...
Good nite.
PA |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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HEY MIKE GREAT SUBJECT.....ALL WE NEED IS LOVE ..LOVE IS ALL WE NEED....
REMEMBER THAT SONG??? OR ARE YOU TO YOUNG? IT'S AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE....NOT THAT I'M OLD I'M ONLY 29.........HEHEHE |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Thanks PT (may I call you that,Pastor Tim?), I would love to catch a game with ya. A Ravens game. :-)
Rosie, I definitely remember that song, though I was a little young when it came out! lol |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Mike i will stand in agreement with Pastor A. IF you notice on most of my responses i leave the Words I LOve you with Agape Love, This is the Love that we Should have to all People Because it is the love that The Bible says we Should have Agape Love! |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Great Blog but I will not debate I will just give Gods word on it.
LOVE BENEFITS OTHERS.
Our society confuses love and lust. Unlike lust, God’s kind of love is directed outward toward others, not inward toward ourselves. It is utterly unselfish. This kind of love goes against our natural inclinations. It is possible to practice this love only if God helps us set aside our own desires and instincts, so that we can give love while expecting nothing in return. Thus the more we become like Christ, the more love we will show to others.
BIBLE READING: 1 John 2:1-11
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment, for it is an old one you have always had, right from the beginning. This commandment-to love one another-is the same message you heard before. Yet it is also new. This commandment is true in Christ and is true among you, because the darkness is disappearing and the true light is already shining. (1 John 2:7-8)
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| October 25, 2007 |
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MH (Tim), I know exactly what you mean. In fact, I wrote another blog this morning that touches on that very thing. So I can definitely identify with ya! :-)
Keith, funny thing is, Pastor A. and I were not in disagreement (as far as I can see). She was saying the same thing, only on a more general level (how many times did I ask for specifics?). I agree with her too, agape is what's needed! :-)
MaKelly, thank you and amen, sister! |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Mike- Wow you were up late and up early this am.
Pastor A- Agape is wonderful.
I have read all the comments and really believe you are both saying the same thing, just one is from the north and one the south, so to speak. Different directions.
Jesus showed perfect agape love. Yes, we all can agree to that. If we look at Jesus' life and all He said and did... you'll see He expressed agape in human terms differently to different people. The woman at the well.... He agaped her by sharing about "water". The woman with the issue of blood....He agaped her with compassion. The man with the ill son at home (military man), all he needed was commands and he would obey.... Jesus agaped him by just His word. I am sure there are many others...feeding the five thousand and so on.
Jesus showed agape love in very real human ways... so each person could understand and feel the fullness of His love. Jesus said He only said what the Father told Him to say and did only what the Father told HIm to say. (I'm not good at quoting and referencing) We are to follow Jesus' example....so we are to express agape in the manner in which He did. We are imperfect people show we do miss the mark, however the doesn't mean we are not to stive for this perfect agape love.
On a personal side, my husband and I have read the Five Love Languages and are making changes in "how" we express our love to each other. The reason is because we want the other to be content and fullfilled in our relationship. By doing this, showing love/agape to the other in a manner in which is their strength. our relationship has improved greatly.
Mike, thanks for the thought provoking blog. I trust this makes sense and is a blessing. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Robin, yes you sure do make sense, and your comments are indeed a blessing -- thank you! Very good point about how Jesus didn't agape everyone he came into contact with the exact same way. You understood my point, and took it up a notch! :-) |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Mike this was truly a great discussion last night. You said, Pastor A. and I were not in disagreement (as far as I can see). She was saying the same thing, only on a more general level (how many times did I ask for specifics?). That's funny, because I saw your question for "specifics" as general. lol. You can't get more specific than Jesus Christ.
Forumulas and theories are just that, formulas and theories... they make good copy, sell books, might even get one a noble peace prize, but God's Word saves souls. 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
As far as I can see, you can't get anymore specific than this. Mike and I were not in disagreement, it's just I wouldn't offer him a general example for his specific question...lol
PA |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Pastor A., I love you! |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Mike I think now we should get into the practical side of our aga-pae ing. From our experience let us see how we can be more practical on the basis of the scripture. Let us apply our real life experience. Otherwise, I see that you and Pastor A are going to be locked into specifics and non specifics. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Ragland, I agree! That's why I liked Robin's post. She made the connection, that even agape has to be individualized for the recipient. I don't know the people in your life, so I can't tell you exactly how to agape them. But I know the folks I live with, hang with, church with, live adjacent to. I can customize the way I agape them so that they feel agape'd. Right? |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Yeah. You are right. But agape-ing is about with strangers and unknown people. How one impacts their lives. Thats what Jesus did. So its not with whom I know, its about with whom I dont know. Am I right or no? |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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This is what Robin has said in her comments: On a personal side, my husband and I have read the Five Love Languages and are making changes in "how" we express our love to each other. The reason is because we want the other to be content and fullfilled in our relationship. By doing this, showing love/agape to the other in a manner in which is their strength. our relationship has improved greatly.
Here she talks about agape is between spouses, because husband and wife is considered to be one body. If you are together, that is what is expected from you as a christian. Agape is to be shared with 'neighbours' and others. Do you agree?
Strangers are always strangers. In your place you have strangers and in my place I have strangers. How do we agape strangers and unknown people is what I want to bring out. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Ahhh, maybe that's where Pastor A. and I were diverging -- people we know vs. strangers. You can customize your agape with people you know (topic of my blog), but it's next to impossible to do this w/strangers (Pastor A's comments). We are indeed called to agape (love) strangers, though we will have to do so in ways that are universally seen and approved, since we don't have enough info to adjust our agape to meet their specific needs. 1 Cor 13 gives some general guidelines on love (agape), as does Rom 12 and Phil 2. And probably a lotta other places. Good point, Ragland. Thanks for opening my eyes! |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Mike another great discussion you have started. I don't have time to read everyones comment right now, but something struck me that I would like to put down now before I return to read all when I have more time.
Doesn't Jesus call us to love our neighbor as ourself? Well what does loving ourself look like?
I think love is giving of ourself in time and energy. I am actually not very good at this whole subject but love seems to be a sacrifice thing more than anything else.
I recognize what you are saying about understanding what love looks like to the other person. I think I will need to rethink how my love looks from a different perspective to really get this whole thing of loving one another.
peace |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| forgot the star. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Mike- if the agape is towards unknown people then it should be called as agape. If it is with known people then it should not be called as agape, it is only returning their favour. I am not a greek or hebrew scholar, so I dont know whats the exact word. May be Pastor A can help. She seems to know greek. Correct me if I am wrong. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Hi MH- Loving some one cannot be classified under agape. But when you are accepting some one life long who is supposed to show love because he or she is your spouse inspite of their unloving action can be classified as agape. You can ramble more. Thats precisely the object of this blog. I hope mike agrees with me |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Ok ya'll gonna make me late for my meeting. I know when I return this blog gonna be way down the page... so when I do get back I want to address:
Mike: people we know vs. strangers. You can customize your agape
Glen: Well what does loving ourself look like?
Ragland: if the agape is towards unknown people then it should be called as agape. If it is with known people then it should not be called as agape, it is only returning their favour
Let me say for me blogging is like sound bites on tv. You only get bit and pieces... not unless you all are really committed to parsing this out. All of your questions and statements are valid.. which means "we" myself included are to struggle to make sense of it all, and that's a real good thing, also, keeping in mind that each of us are on different levels of our spiritual development... I'm not smart, I'm not heady... I'm determined to unravel life's contradictions... where love is at the top.
See ya'll when I get back.
PA |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| If it's really love for the other person, it seems it is not done out of obedience, but for the other person. So it will be expressed in whatever way is best for him/her, not whatever way I can check off my list that I did it. If I love someone, truly love them, it is my desire to please them and to encourage them be all they can be. Not about me, but them. God calls us to love, not as an action that can be completed, but as a lifestyle. The hard part is getting the ME out of the way! Good reminder, Mike! |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Eph 5:25 Husbands, love (agapao) your wives, even as Christ also loved (agapao) the church, and gave himself for it; (KJV)
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love (agape), joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (KJV)
1 Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity (love, agape), these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity. (KJV)
I would say agape can be extended to those we are familiar with (spouses, as in Eph 5) as well as strangers. Agape describes a serving, sacrificial type of love. Why couldn't we agape a friend, brother, father, mother, spouse, stranger, enemy, etc....? |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Kathy, excellent point! Agreed. I might add that we don't always feel like agape-ing others, but that doesn't change the requirement to do so, does it? (thanks for joining our discussion!) |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Love to me is simply reflecting to others what I have experienced through Christ.
I've done unpleasant things in the eyes of God, yet He continues to love me. So when faced to an unpleasant situation, when I remember that point, it becomes easier to again reflect the love that Christ has shown me.
Gene |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Mike,
let me add another definition to your blog - one that I was taught many years ago:
Love is doing the best thing for the other person, regardless of what it is and regardless of personal preference."
It is self-giving and supporting, to ultimately bring new life.
Great blog! (as usual)
* * * * * * DG
(The other Gene) |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Gene & Gene
good points, both. When we reflect the love God has shown us in Jesus, we are truly loving one another and self-giving and supporting, to bring new life is what it is all about.
Amen to both of you
peace
glenn |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Great blog Mike. I don't think we humans can really understand love...not the way God does anyway. All we can do is do our best...giving up self for others, which isn't always easy. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Wow Mike! What a blog. Don't you ever sleep or do you live on MyChurch as I do?
In answer to my post a long time ago....I meant that we should not love for self pleasure, but when we truly love as God did, it will please us. Even though God had to watch His Son be beaten, bruised, cursed at, spat at, mocked, pierced, crucified, and die, I am sure that He found pleasure, because He knew that death could not hold Him down and that His creation would now have a way to be truly forgiven...through His Love.
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Great! There's no need to me to address the above, it's now covered. Great points all of you. Lawdy, I see 2 Genes...
Mike - I applaud you my dear brother, for your committment to get at the root of the matter, for what can be more complexing than the issue of love, understanding it's "true essence" the agape, and how to actualize it in our lives.
PA |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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I wanted to comment on this statement:
what does loving ourself look like?
We are instructed "to love others as ouselves". Loving ourselves would be "agapeing" ourself. I view it this way: I need to take care of myself, body, mind, and spirit. I must be healthy in all those areas. Physically, eating and exercising. Mind challenging my intellect and keeping "an open mind". Spiritually, reading the Word, praying, & fellowshipping. Sometimes I take better care of others than myself. I put their needs first, not always bad, but if it is to my harm....well then.
People who I don't know can be agaped by my kindness, compassion, courtesy, and giving....anything else you can think of. If I am a mess and then try to agape someone I don't know.... I don't think it will have the desired outcome that Jesus would like. I am sure when I check back in there'll be a bunch more comments. For me, bottom line, love others as Jesus would have me do, and start with the person in the mirror. Enjoying the converstion. I look forward to joining again after picking my daughter from school. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Love is... difficult! I disagree. From a human perspective, God's love is impossible. That's why God had to pour His love in hearts (Rom 5:5). Romans 5:5
Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God's love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Wow, great comments continue! Thanks for all the contributions!
Jess... I agree with your (&Jack's) disagreement, which Deb actually touched on as well. Since agape flows only from the heart surrendered to God, we can't love on our own! The blog could have just as easily been titled, "Living by the Spirit is... difficult!" We all fall short in many areas, as a direct result of our ongoing struggles to live by the Spirit. If this were not a problem for us, this blog would not have been written at all!! Praise God for the indwelling Spirit which gives us the power to love our neighbors! Of course, even living by the Spirit, there is plenty of room for training in godly living (e.g. Titus 2:4-5).
Robin, excellent and thought provoking post. Agape myself. Hmm, lemme think about that! |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| This all seems to point to man's need for the guidance of the spirit. |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Joh 13:34 A new2537 commandment1785 I give1325 unto you,5213 That2443 ye love25 one another;240 as2531 I have loved25 you,5209 that2443 ye5210 also2532 love25 one another.240
Joh 13:35 By1722 this5129 shall all3956 men know1097 that3754 ye are2075 my1698 disciples,3101 if1437 ye have2192 love26 one to another.240, 1722 The above passage is from KJV with Strong nos ( Greek) . This was spoken by Jesus himself. In verse 34 he commands us to love ( agapao) each other. By doing that He says in Verse 35 when we do this we become His disciple and we will have love (agape). Where as Paul says as follows: 1Co 13:1 Though1437 I speak2980 with the3588 tongues1100 of men444 and2532 of angels,32 and1161 have2192 not3361 charity,26 I am become1096 as sounding2278 brass,5475 or2228 a tinkling214 cymbal.2950
1Co 13:13 And1161 now3570 abideth3306 faith,4102 hope,1680 charity,26 these5023 three;5140 but1161 the greatest3187 of these5130 is charity.26 Eph 5:2 And2532 walk4043 in1722 love,26 as2531 Christ5547 also2532 hath loved25 us,2248 and2532 hath given3860 himself1438 for5228 us2257 an offering4376 and2532 a sacrifice2378 to God2316 for1519 a sweetsmelling2175 savor.3744 Please note that strong's no 25 is agapao and 26 is agape. To me as I understand, when we love (agapao -human understanding) our neighbours, we will reach the level of agape (Godly love towards humanbeings ) |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Mike...I haven't read all of the comments, so if someone else said this...I'm sorry.
I've recently come to the realization that I am incapable of truly loving someone. Just look at 1Corinthians 13 and see how close our versions of love come to what scripture says love is. I can't live up to God's definition of love. The only way that people can actually experience love coming from me, is if it is God doing the loving through me. God is the only one who can love like God loves. I can't love God, my flesh just won't do it, but if I have died and Christ lives in me, then He loves God on my behalf. So...all of that to say, God loves Himself and others through me, but He is the one doing all the work.
I hope that made sense :-) |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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| Love just IS |
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| October 25, 2007 |
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Love takes actions and words. It doesn't matter what age a person is. The people who are hardest to love are the ones who need it the most. I believe that when I show someone True Love it is a reflection of Gods Love For Me! Only God can love in the way He speaks of. I have learned that the best way to show love is to treat people the way I want to be treated. |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Thanks for those additional references, Ragland, and thanks for joining us Zach! Together we've established that God is the source of agape, as described in 1 Cor 13, Jn 13, and other places. Agape is a fruit of the Spirit!
Judy, what took you so long to join in? That was an amazing observation, and one I certainly don't recall seeing yet in all the previous comments. "people who are hardest to love are the ones who need it the most." WOW!! |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Judy: The people who are hardest to love are the ones who need it the most. This is an amazing observation! But in our endurance we have to show our agapao to them so that we get agape-d by God our Maker.
Thanks Mike for the wonderful blog. What do you have next in store? God bless you for making our eyes open wide! |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Ragland: we have to show our agapao to them so that we get agape-d by God our Maker.
I'm not sure God's love for me depends on anything other than His character. If it depended on my doing anything, He'd never end up loving me.
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Thanks Ragland, you are most kind and gracious!
This morning during my devotion time I was further reminded of what was pointed out by Jess and others, as I read in John: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." God bless you guys! ~mike |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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| Jess, I suspect he meant that we experience the Father's love when we show agape to others. Those who live for themselves don't experience much of God's blessing. |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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| Jess: Sorry. I hope I did not upset you. Earlier in the day I went through Jn 15:34 and 35 in the KJV with strong's numbers and I observed in the two verses for the same English word 'love' two greek words were used. My principal observation is based on that. The comment by Judy here is what is usually shown by normal human characteristics. As followers of Jesus, we are expected to do the extra ordinary things (Kingdom rules). The more I read Mike's blog the more my inadequacy was brought out. So I do understand that I have to get matured in lot of areas to get agape-d by God, though I am covered under Grace. Thanks Jess for your comments. God loves you and me. |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Mike~ this may well be your best blog ever! My quote is from 1 Cor 13:4 in the NIV: Love is patient. I fail right there at the beginning. But failure is not a bad thing because it forces me (again and again!) into God to get from him what I do not have in my own strength. My husband and I have had much teaching and attended many seminars on this so I was surprised at how much more I learned when our church recently showed the dvd "Love and Respect" by Dr. Ralph Eggerichs. He taught from Ephs 5:33: Let each of you so love his own wife as himself and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Our church presented this as not just for married couples but as an aid in understanding the different attitudes men and women have toward love. Like you said in your blog, women want to feel cherished, men want respect. I knew that scripture and thought I practiced it. Let me present just one specific that surprised me: women want face to face intimate conversation, men want shoulder to shoulder companionship. Being a woman I thought love always meant face to face intimate conversation. But I have found it true: what my husband wants is just for me to be with him, side by side. So I have had to reprogram my understanding of love in order to meet his need. Such as accompanying him on a trip I didn't want to make where I said almost nothing, just sat there by his side. (Most women will tell you that isn't easy!) Defining agape is simple. It's loving others sacrifically as Christ loved us ... by his spirit. But the actual walking out of agape is challenging because it goes against our nature and personal inclinations. It is "other-oriented" and often we don't have a clue what is going on in the other person we are attempting to love. |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Howdy Ragland, I'm not upset, I just disagree. I just lived most of my life trying to get God to love me when He already did. BTW, John 15 stops at verse 27. Are you referring to John 13? Here's John 13:34-35 in Amplified: John 13:34-35 (Amplified)
34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.
35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves]. I guess I don't see how this verse says God doesn't love me if I am or am not loving others. It says the world will see that I'm Christs desciple if I show love to others, specifically other believers. I base my viewpoint on 1 John 4:18-20 1 John 4:18-20 (Amplified)
18 There is no fear in love [dread does not exist], but full-grown (complete, perfect) love turns fear out of doors and expels every trace of terror! For fear brings with it the thought of punishment, and [so] he who is afraid has not reached the full maturity of love [is not yet grown into love's complete perfection].
19 We love Him, because He first loved us.
20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen. Notice that verse 20 says that a believer who hates his/her brother is a liar, and that they don't love their brother or God. It does not say that God doesn't love a believer who hates his/her brother. |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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And the comments just keep getting better and better! Thanks so much Jay, and thanks again Ragland! We believers always have more to learn about God, and it seems to come just as often from fellow believers more mature than ourselves as those less so.
And a special thank you to all for bearing with one another in love! It's clear there are many disciples here.... |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Jay, Your comment is great! "It's loving others sacrifically as Christ loved us ... by his spirit. But the actual walking out of agape is challenging because it goes against our nature and personal inclinations. It is "other-oriented" and often we don't have a clue what is going on in the other person we are attempting to love." This especially spoke to my heart. I nearly never know what is going on in the other person, so I must rely on God to guide and direct my loving efforts.
peace |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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| 1Jn 4:7 Beloved,27 let us love25 one another:240 for3754 love26 is2076 of1537 God;2316 and2532 every one3956 that loveth25 is born1080 of1537 God,2316 and2532 knoweth1097 God.2316 1Jn 4:8 He that loveth25 not3361 knoweth1097 not3756 God;2316 for3754 God2316 is2076 love.26
Thanks Jess for pointing out. See for yourself the difference the words that were used in the original scripts. 1 Jn 4:8 says If you dont love your fellow human beings you dont know God! |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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Mike,
I just came by to check on you, and here it is, going on and on. I just had to laugh.
Did you eat all of those brownies already?
Loves doesn't look like anything because you can't see it. I learned that on the farm. woof! |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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| You sure did use the correct term, "difficult." And it is work. It does not come naturally. We need to work at it, if we want to have good healthy relationships. Another great post by Mike n Laura! |
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| October 26, 2007 |
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| One more thing.....every time you add a post to the C3 blog 75% of my What's Fresh section shows all of the comments from your post :) |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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| Thanks for your comments Carrie Ann, Abbas_daughter, and Sue! (Sorry about that What's Fresh, Sue.) Welcome to the discussion! Point taken Ragland, that scripture's further confirmation that w/o God we don't agape. |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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The most important verse in the bible is John 3:16.
Guess what is the second most important verse?
1 John 3:16 (KJV) Hereby perceive (finally understand) we the love of GOD because He layed down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
When I truly understand what Jesus has done for me doing the same for others becomes less of a difficulty and more of a joy.
Read the scriptures. How did Jesus love?
L etting
O thers
V alue (validate)
E motions
People don't care how much you know they want to know how much you care is true. People who were not good enough for religion were drawn to Jesus because He accepted them where they were. People with messed up lives, minds and bodies all were valued by Jesus. In His presence they felt validation. The religious people they knew were always building walls. Jesus built bridges.
A few weeks ago a Sunday School teacher who teaches high school asked for prayer for a group of kids who became "satanists". Their words and actions were often inflammatory. There were christian jocks who just wanted to beat them up. There were christian teachers who were afraid of them. Of course they thrived on victimization and negative christian reaction. I talked to this teacher afterwards.
"I doubt there is anything these kids have done that is worse than things I have done during a time in my life of great darkness. I wasn't a satanist but I did tear up my bibles and told GOD to leave me the *&^* alone. I remember two incidents from this time.
Once when talking to my former pastor (have no idea how that happened) he realized I was so messed up he took me to another church that worked a lot with kids like me. The band was good and I enjoyed the light show. Afterwards some took me to a room to save me. I kept getting rebuked because of my profanity. Finally, I was told to either clean it up or I had to leave. So I left. Been kicked out of worse places. And so began the long walk home on a cold night.
Another time while I was loading my catering truck a young man came up to buy something. He began to talk to me about Jesus. I responded to him the same way I responded to most people in my life at that time. He walked away that day knowing he had failed miserably. What he did not know is that deep within me was something that craved what he had. His meekness, total lack of anger or offense at how I treated him spoke louder to my heart than a thousand rebukes ever did.
So when you deal with these kids and the one in particular in your class you will never touch him by trying to prove he is wrong. He will always "win" that fight. But he will not be able to resist love. Just love him. 1 Cor. 13 says ...love never faileth."
A few weeks pass. Last week the teacher shared how the kid had missed a lot of school because of sickness and had lost a lot of weight. His pants were real baggy (not intentional, fashionable) and he kept pulling his pants up. After class the teacher told him if he didn't mind that she might have some pants put away at her house that would fit him. He received her offer with enthusiasm and gratitude. Unknown to her another teacher had offered him some shirts, t-shirts. So in a couple days he was wearing "decent" clothing to school.
Love speaks louder than words.
When you love another you may not get the results you need or desire. But love never fails. You may not see but GOD does. Don't be discouraged by "failure".
Love builds bridges.
Love is a privilege not a responsibity. It is a lifestyle not an act.
I love you no I love you more
So it goes when we keep score
Always striving to stay ahead
Carefully crafting each word said
Measuring how far we have run
Examining each thing we have done
One comes along who does not play
Just living his life day to day
Without competition or measuring sticks
He is not careful of the friends he picks
Loving and caring he brings them in
Regardless of where it is they've been
Daily in secret he lifts them is prayer
Those who with him their lives share
Tears fall like rain from his face
As he prays the Blood and Grace
This is the part of love that is seldom seen
Only by those who from self are weaned
.....peace..... |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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Apureheart - simply beautiful.
Pastor Aminata |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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Howdy Ragland,
Thanks for reposting. This is an interesting discussion. BTW, do you have the data for the Strongs numbers? Just because the numbers are different doesn't mean the words are necessarily from different roots.
I'm curious about how you see this situation:
A person who has accepted Jesus has a lot of unresolved bitterness. Let's call him Bob. Bob treats other people in an unloving, even contemptuous manner. He reads his bible and prays often. In your view, is Bob saved? Does Bob know and experience God? |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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| I was going to star for Gordon and then realized I have already starred this for Mike for his great blog. Mike, you deserve another star for starting this great dialogue. Is that allowed??? |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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| WOW!!! Not very profound but to the point. |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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Enjoying the solid posts that keep pouring in, thanks all! :-)
Apureheart, that was a great post, and was most deserving of a blog of its own! But I'm honored to host it. :-)
Jay, if it was up to me I'd say yes! But then, I also think it'd be nice to star individual comments, and there have been a few here that I'd star. Oh well, I'm happy to accept stars on behalf of my commenters. lol
We are at a layover on our way south to the obx for vacation (for a week). I will blog when I can, comment when I can, but internet time could be limited! Thanks again for making this great, friends! ~mike |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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As a song writer I wrote a song to try to show love and maximize our ability to do so...so here goes
Ahem
Tulips are not red, so most prefer roses, although roses come in more colors than red
Yet violets are strangely deemed blue does that not arise question in you
Since violet is a cousin to purple yet no one seems to mind
That, like this little poem is going nowhere, we have left reason behind
Thankyou |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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As a poet I wrote a poem to try to show GOD's love and how we maximize our efforts to minimize it...so here goes...
At the foot of the Cross I found release
Free from my sin I finally had peace
Seeing the great price that He paid for me
I desired in my heart that others be free
I looked around but no one was near
Sadly I realized that I could not stay here
As the Cross got smaller I saw their faults
Secret sins hidden in their personal vaults
Treasures of fools gold of no value
How hard I tried to enlighten you
I used the Word like a sharp sword
Trying to convince you Jesus is Lord
But time and again I was rejected
Sadness filled me as on my journey I reflected
And then I heard a voice call my name
Suddenly I was covered with shame
I looked for the Cross but I could not see
I realized I was lost and Jesus was looking for me
My ministry, my good works burned as dross
These days I dwell in the shadow of the Cross
Silently praying with those who come near
Listening to their hurt, heartaches and fear
When I cannot answer I simply point to Him
His pure light exposes clearly what to them is dim
As the miracle of the Cross touches another
I thank GOD for healing my sister or brother
.....peace..... |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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Ok that is not fair...I was just joking...
Sounds like more of a testimony...how difficult it is once being redeemed not to become the pharisee despising thetax collector... |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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AWESOME, AWESOME BLOG - You guys need to put out a call to me when I miss something like this....
LOVE - JESUS DEFINED AND LIVED IT
Humanitys definition - TOTAL CONFUSION
JESUS is our role model of PURE LOVE. We as sinners try as we might cannot replicate it. We give it our best shot (Lord knows we try), but we can never get it just RIGHT. We hurt because we define it to death. We CANNOT please everyone because everyone has a different definition.
We open our hearts to hear his word, we meditate,we give, we struggle but we can't get it EXACTLY right because we are sinners. WE ARE FORGIVEN, but we are sinners. I am not saying stop what you're doing because we are led by the SPIRIT (thank you JESUS), I just think we will finally get it right when we get home... |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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and Mike, have a good vacation...to everyone else, I will sit in for Mike since I also believe that if you don't speak the ancient forms of the languages of the midianites you also will not be allowed into heaven and that if you fall to sin you must beat yourselves with whips and scourgings lest calamnity come upon you and your children's children.
I also agree with his opinion that the "rapture" is nothing more than a believers experience when they accept Jesus and swear loyalty to the church and to the local food store department managers...
Furthur more I agree that we are in the millenium and that the anti-christ was actually Michael the arch-angel...
So on behalf of Mike, shoot your qu's, I have got plenty of answers
In case it is not obvious, the remarks on this comment do not factually represent the opinions or beliefs of WEBYOUTHPASTOR...Mike ...sorry |
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| October 27, 2007 |
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APureHeart:
I could not have expressed it any better. PURE LOVE... We have become so jaded in our thinking and also in our feelings. We EXPECT something all the time (respect,money,kind words, whatever). PURE LOVE - NO EXPECTATIONS.
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| October 27, 2007 |
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Hi Jess;
First- the data on Strong's nos. Yeah I have them.
G25 ἀγαπάω agapaō ag-ap-ah'-o Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): - (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368.
G26 ἀγάπη agapē ag-ah'-pay From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
G5368 φιλέω phileō fil-eh'-o From G5384; to be a friend to (fond of [an individual or an object]), that is, have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while G25 is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as G2309 and G1014, or as G2372 and G3563 respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specifically to kiss (as a mark of tenderness): - kiss, love.
Now coming to your question before answering that question I want to draw your attention to the following passage from Galatians 5th Chapter: Gal 5:13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another. Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, Gal 5:21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof. Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Gal 5:26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.
Now coming to the question, Once a person is saved, he is like a baby. On receiving spiritual food slowly, he grows into an adult. He must realise his state and give himself to be moulded as clay in the hands of the potter. When we are a normal person, we justify our own actions. When we are in Christ, the fruits of spirit must work in us.
We need not condemn any one. It does take time to understand 'Love'. I think its a process and not a sudden transformation. Let us pray for Bob (your friend) that he will slowly learn to 'love'. May be half step at a time. I believe he is saved if he realises that his bouts of anger is byond his control. (I am sorry about the fonts because I dont know how to format this and make it small. So pardon me for this)
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| October 28, 2007 |
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Thanks Ragland,
I totally agree with all your points. Believers should show love as they let God have more control of their lives. I guess we were looking at opposite sides of the same coin, your viewpoint from a theological view, mine from a pragmatic view. The cool thing is both views are Biblical (and actually the same). |
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| November 02, 2007 |
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| Mike--I LOVE YOU MAN! And I love all these Greek scholars (just like me, woo hoo, yeah right) who've weighed in here, whether I agree with them or not. Hope you've had a great vacation; see ya Sunday! Agape, Phileo, Sorge, but definitely not Eros to ya! |
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| November 04, 2007 |
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Wade - or is it Francine? :-)
Excellent comment! Thanks for your contribution to this blog! "Let God love them through us" hitting close to a cop-out - that's an interesting thought. I think those who state this just have a hard time voicing the need for us to abide, which you also talked about. Abiding love is perfect love, b/c this love is a fruit of the Spirit. So the difficulty in loving someone, as has been discussed, is in abiding in Christ the Vine! :-) |
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| November 04, 2007 |
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| Ah, well hello Francine. I love your posts, great to have you here in the community! (I've seen and admired your stand for truth!) |
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| November 04, 2007 |
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| Maybe it is in how we receive love. I'm glad you are back. Missed ya'll |
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| November 04, 2007 |
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| Thanks Joey! :-) |
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| November 05, 2007 |
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| I missed you, too! Welcome back and I hope you had a great vacation. |
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| November 05, 2007 |
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| Thank you Jay! It is good to be back HOME. :-) |
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| November 07, 2007 |
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Hey, did you by chance notice my previous entry about 1/5 of the page up...I expected to get some form of reaction...
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| November 07, 2007 |
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| hehe, you mean that stuff about the midianites, the rapture and all? I caught that, wondered when the questions would start rolling in... :-) |
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| November 07, 2007 |
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| I personally enjoyed the swearing of loyalty to the local food store managers |
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| November 07, 2007 |
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| lol! |
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