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| Love is... difficult! |
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I am commanded to love God (Deut 6:5, Mat 22:37, Mk 12:30) and love my neighbors (Mat 22:39, Mk 12:31). I am even commanded to love my enemies (Mat 5:44)! Love is an important command!!
The problem is, people interpret love many different ways. What feels like love to one person may not feel so much like love to another. Generally speaking,
- to women, love is being cherished or treasured.
- to men, love is the feeling of being respected.
- to girls, love is being protected by someone.
- to boys, love is being taught how to take on responsibility, then being given some.
- parents express love by sharing practical knowledge and administering discipline.
- the same parents see their children’s love for them expressed through obedience and thoughtfulness.
- to a child, love is the caring attention of their parents.
Then on top of this list, factor in the notion that all individuals give and receive love according to five different “love languages”, or ways that individuals understand or interpret love emotionally, and you wind up with a myriad of different ways people feel loved. So not only do I have to fight through my own selfish tendencies in order to express love, but I also have to figure out how other folks interpret love! This is a difficult task even on my best days!
So back to the command. The question becomes, does God expect me to love in ways which I determine to be love, or as the recipients of my “love” perceive it? The former may satisfy my own conscience, but if the recipient doesn’t feel loved, have I really obeyed God’s command to love at all? |
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| Hi Mike. I am so glad to post my comment first. You have hit the nail on the head once more. The 'love' that you have mentioned above and how God wants us to 'love' is a little different. Any how I like this topic because I feel many christians today have misunderstood the basics. Your discussions will bring out the differences and finally we can summarise what we christians around the world should do to love neighbours and enemies. Kudos! Great topic. |
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Wow...this is deep. Hmmm...I think that it is how God perceives to what love is. He does say that He is Love afterall. Nowadays the word love is overrated and overused. The best example of love is the sacrifice of Christ, but to some that may not seem like it is love. (That is why they are not saved yet). So as I said, my friend, I think that you need to ask yourself does your "love" reflect who God is and would God think that these actions would be classified as love.
~Jeremy |
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Mike don't confused apples with oranges. God's love with man's verison of love are not the same. Yes I know and have conducted workshops from the 5 Love Languages... however, we will never fall short if we simply love the way the bible instructs us.
Each of your New Testament scriptures uses the exact same word in the Greek for Love... agapao - the agape - unconditional love.
| G25 | agapaō | ä-gä-pä'-ō | love, beloved | | G26 | agapē | ä-gä'-pā | love, charity, dear, charitably, feast of charity | | G5360 | philadelphia | fē-lä-del-fē'-ä | brotherly love, brotherly kindness, love of the brethren | | G5361 | philadelphos | fē-lä'-del-fos | love as brethren | | G5362 | philandros | fē'-län-dros | love their husbands | | G5363 | philanthrōpia | fē-län-thrō-pē'-ä | kindness, love toward man | | G5365 | philargyria | fē-lär-gü-rē'-ä | love of money | | G5368 | phileō | fē-le'-ō | love, kiss | | G5383 | philoprōteuō | fē-lo-prō-tyü'-ō | love to have the preeminence | | G5388 | philoteknos | fē-lo'-tek-nos | love (one's) children |
I believe that as long as we insist on having our own way, do our own thing, as we deem right, we will always miss the mark.
Pastor Aminata |
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Hi P.A, I appreciate your input, but please clarify. I am familiar w/phileo/eros/agape. The problem is, from a practical standpoint, what the heck is love?? "God's love" is too general. I try to love w/God's love and my wife says, "I don't want to watch football with you!!" Because you see, to me, doing things together, like watching a football game, is love in action! Or I think I am loving her when I bring her flowers or a box of chocolates. But she says, "Oh, that's nice." Then two days later, "Why haven't you done this, this, and this? You don't love me!" You see, we must define love in human terms. (I believe...in order to be practical....love in action....speak their language, etc.)
So again, if this isn't connecting, please help me understand where you are coming from! :-)
~your ever-loving brother in Christ |
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Hey Ragland, thanks so much! I see you see the differences I think I see. (huh?) Anyway, great comment!
Jeremy, good point, many don't understand Christ's sacrifice as an act of love. Heck, that's a great point! Further illustrates how love is in the eye of the..... recipient! Ah, but in the case of Jesus' sacrifice, God expresses his love and he expects us to recognize it as love, doesn't he? Hmm, anyone want to touch on this? |
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I think if people try to approach acts of love based on definition...they are already screwing up. If I choose within myself what love is and then act towards you in that light all I am doing is pleasing myself...
What do I mean?? Well counsel a few broken couples and you realize that love is probably the most poorly communicated action. One feels that their dedication to providing is an act of love but the other views it as being neglectful towards intimacy...it can drive one crazy...
So what then...simple, I think. If one does and act of "love" towards another but defines that act from a self view...one is not loving the other b/c the greatest act of love is lay oneself down...does this make sense? I cannot show my wife love by buying her a football. That seems ridiculous but that is usually what we do to eachother and to God.
With God we show Him our love by our dedication to the church...and to eachother...but that is not what He asks for yet when you speak to a "washed out" Christian, they will rant and rave about how much they did for God and how He has now failed them...
Oh boy, I hope that made sense |
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| Well done then, we're thinking alike! |
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Jen |
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October 24, 2007 at 9:03pm |
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Mike - I have some thoughts on this but they are slightly jumbled due to too much time on the internet tonight (getting stuff lined out for my trip) and it being my bedtime. If I feel like I can be more coherent tomorrow, you'll hear from me. (Even if it's only to say: "Yeah, I agree with so-and-so's comment! That's what I was gonna say!) Until then...good topic of discussion you've brought up here. Also: I am (what I think is) like your wife, in that I equate my husband's willingness to take care of things (that I don't want to take care of or simply can't or have asked him to handle) for me as a sign of his love for me. :-) But then, I tend to show my love/caring to others through service/help to them. Also gift giving, in a random way. Those are my love languages, I guess. (Never read the book, but know about it.) It's actually easier to figure out the love thing with mankind than with God, isn't it? |
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Mike,
God wants us to see Christ's sacrifice as love, but He knows that many will not. For if we all looked at it as love, then I think more of us would be truly saved and say Surely this was the Son of God.
Here is another question to ask youself in your quest to find out what love truly is:
Am I willing to give my life up for what/who I love?
Wife....Kids...Family....Friends....Football (lol) ....
For there is no greater love than to lay down a life for a friend. All these other definitions about love do not even compare or come close. True love has no pleasure in it, but only sacrifice.
Now with that being said...maybe the right thing to do is to be careful in what/who you say you truly love. And do you mean it when you say it?
~Jeremy |
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Mike/WebYouthPastor, if you all plan to stay up late - I can hang. Let do this a bit at a time. Love is in my opinion the most misunderstood word today. Why, because we blend the definitions (God's Love which is surely not general) with (man's verison of Love). So Mike give me one question at a time and let's see how it goes.
Pastor Aminata |
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Consumed B - True love has no pleasure in it, but only sacrifice. Are you sure you mean this? God gave His only Son and had no pleasure in doing so? That's not how I read His Word.
Pastor Aminata |
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hehe, I can hang for a few...
Love must be expressed to other people in a way the recipients understand as love, right? In fact, our desire and willingness to do this might even be considered love to God, who commands us to love our neighbor (but in humility consider others better than yourselves).
It sounds as if you are putting love into two categories -- man defined and God defined... |
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I wish I could hang bud but people have this thing about wanting their painting done...well...right. So with that I will bid you goodnight.
Jeremy, well spoken. Even if it is difficult, it is still worth the effort. Plus, for the married folks, the making up part can definitely be worth the misunderstanding. HAHA
Goodnight insomniacs |
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| Yeh, Jeremy I didn't see the no pleasure part. Perhaps you meant that seeking pleasure cannot be the motive when attempting an act of love but I do believe you would agree that pleasure often results when operating in love |
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Mike - Love (agape) is a selfless act. Now take it from there. We were not raised, or socialized to understand this notion. Everything about us, our very sin nature, says, it's all about me, which is the very opposite of God's type of love. Now even when we do acts of kindness, most times we are still doing out of self-gratification. In other words, it pleases me, to please you. Sounds good doesn't it. But it falls short of the mark.
Pastor Aminata
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| Hey, that is what I said...kind of |
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Love must be expressed to other people in a way the recipients understand as love, right? Wrong. Love must be expressed the way God commands us to do so. Doesn't mean other people will understand it.
Pastor Aminata |
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Joey |
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October 24, 2007 at 9:18pm |
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Hi Mike, what a blog...
Really I have come to the conclusion that with people, I will take what love I can get because no human will ever be able to love me the way God does. In return, I tryto love the way that God loves me. There is doubt that I stumble about doing this, but I try... I have faith that love goes in circles.
There is something about the way God loves me, that no one, including my precious husband, measure up to. I think that is... God knows me, because He really listens - He's really in tune with me so much that He knows me much better than I know myself.
My husband I had a conversation this summer. We both agree. We love God more than we love each other. We thought that is amazingly beautiful. I will tender. |
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Pastor Aminata, I totally get what you're saying. In a way, I think that thought was captured in the blog. And as I said in the prev. comment, to begin to love another person pragmatically I must go about it with the intention to agape them -- like Phil 2 says, consider their interests (version of love) in place of my own.
And like you said, in another words though, love is... difficult! |
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Mike yes difficult it is because.... we must be desocialized! From this point forward I will use the word agape so as not to confused it with the other versions of love. Doing the agape is a process. We must first allow the Holy Spirit to produce the agape within us. Gal 5:22. The more we allow the Holy Spirit to control our lives, the easier it will be to do the agape. Does this make sense?
Pastor Aminata |
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love is... difficult! Also we are not accustomed to the concept of "selfless" many of us are still in denial, we ain't trying to give up self.
Pastor Aminata |
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| Joey, great point, and a very spiritually mature thing to acknowledge -- loving God more than spouse. But I am sure that you are only able to love (agape) your husband because you love God! Thanks for the great comment! ~mike |
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Oh, just saw your 12:26 comment, Pastor Aminata. Yes, that makes complete sense. I've probably even said that very thing numerous times.
Question. You said "Love must be expressed the way God commands us to do so" AND at 12:18 you said love does not need to be expressed in a way recipients understand. I'm sorry but I have to ask a hard question. What specifically does the standard template for love expressed the way God commands look like? Please be specific. |
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What specifically does the standard template for love expressed the way God commands look like? Please be specific.
Jesus Christ
He is to be our role-model for the agape. Any other concept will fall short. As we learn of him, understand him, and I believe we can do this... we too can give agape. Mike I don't think God would command us to do something we weren't capable of doing. Our nature is yes, but.... this is how we are most of the time. Yes Lord I love you but... let's be practical. See my point?
PA (cause I hate to write) |
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| I think we must 'love' others ('neighbours') without expecting something back in terms of 'favour'. When you actually put this to practise, it is very difficult. It is very easy to quote the scripture and tell others too, but when I try to do something out of the way for a total stranger, my innermost being asks me, 'hey why you need to do this?". This means I have to grow up still. |
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| Pastor Aminata, it seems I am dwelling in the practical realm while you are in the spiritual. I am afraid your post doesn't really answer the question I asked. Does this seem like a fair characterization? |
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| hehe, may I use "PA" too? :-) |
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Mike - you are making my point... I am talking about the practical realm. That's why we miss it the majority of the time. We think God's way is not practical. This is just what our daughter Ashley said to her father and I last week regarding faith. We was telling her that she has to have faith in regards to what College she wants to attend. Her response was, "Ok, but let's be practical about this." I think we have a problem here.
PA |
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Jonathan Edwards was a legendary man of God, known in fact for his deep love for God. He knew about agape. Yet he struggled to love his wife. In the book Married to a Difficult Man, the story of Sarah Edwards' endurance in marriage is told. An amazing book, says Laura (the other half of this profile).
Charles Stanley, one of the greatest teachers of the modern era, also knows agape well. Yet his wife divorced him several years ago, because he struggled to love her in practical ways the made her feel loved.
Perhaps the problem with the blog is I didn't explain that I was intentionally speaking pragmatically. The point is, in order to agape someone, you need to know their specific needs in the relationship. Most people call that a need to be "loved". So Gary Chapman and others would urge us to express our agape in specific ways that fulfill their need to be "loved", fulfilling their specific needs in the relationship. I struggle with this, as I think many many people do. Given the examples of Edwards and Stanley, even great men of God struggle with this. If only they had read my blog! :-) |
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Mike- you are still missing it. Jonathan Edwards, and my man Charles Stanley, yes they knew the agape, doesn't mean they did it. We can know something but still not do what we know. Agreed? I challenging you to think about the words you use, pragmatic, practical... as if Jesus wasn't. He was the epitome of pragmatism.
One of the purpose of the "What If" exercise, is for all who choose to struggle with understanding the walk of Jesus in our day and time. I don't know if you read the blog, but it's very interesting. In order to understand the agape, we have to struggle and I mean struggle to understand Jesus. So what better way than to walk with him, as one of His disciples? (you can still become a disciple.. it's not too late). I believe it will be well worth the trip.
Of course the agape is difficult and will be as long as you believe it is something beyond your capablities.
PA |
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PA, I'm saying perhaps they (Edwards & Stanley) did indeed try! Maybe they agape'd their hearts out!! They simply expressed it in ways their wives didn't see as agape. Also, I'm not saying Jesus is impractical! Our misunderstanding here seems comical to me now.
I don't believe agape is beyond my capabilities, well, I admitted it's difficult, like you said (and I agree!) it's a process. It's called growing in Christlikeness. Right? I suspect every reader will agree it's difficult. The lightning bolt for me came when I realized that I can love my wife with everything I've got, and yet it is possible she still won't feel loved!! Guess I need to poll her to find out what she needs, specifically! (NONE of your posts have offered specifics, none! And they shouldn't, because every recipient of love has different specific needs!!)
PA, I love you, and I thank you for the time you devoted to this frustratingly fun dialogue! (It was fun, wasn't it?) God bless! I'm going to bed, catch up w/ya tomorrow. ~mike |
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Joey |
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October 24, 2007 at 10:28pm |
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Agape: It isn't if you tell them in plain old english
Agape is free. It is love meaning that nothing is expected in return. That is the beautiful thing about it. In this age, people think everything has a price tag.
I give you brownies. Now you think you need to give me something. I agape you brownies. I gave you love without expecting anything in return. |
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Sleep well my friend - I believe you finally got it.
Love ya back and yes it was fun... that's because you're a fun guy...
Good nite.
PA |
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Great blog Mike. My love language is a large pizza supreme and a Bears game. lol
I really like your point about how we are to love others. Our tedency is to love others in our own love language. You have reminded me to be more sensitive to other people's love language. |
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Rosie |
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October 25, 2007 at 2:10am |
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HEY MIKE GREAT SUBJECT.....ALL WE NEED IS LOVE ..LOVE IS ALL WE NEED....
REMEMBER THAT SONG??? OR ARE YOU TO YOUNG? IT'S AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE....NOT THAT I'M OLD I'M ONLY 29.........HEHEHE |
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Thanks PT (may I call you that,Pastor Tim?), I would love to catch a game with ya. A Ravens game. :-)
Rosie, I definitely remember that song, though I was a little young when it came out! lol |
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| Mike i will stand in agreement with Pastor A. IF you notice on most of my responses i leave the Words I LOve you with Agape Love, This is the Love that we Should have to all People Because it is the love that The Bible says we Should have Agape Love! |
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Great Blog but I will not debate I will just give Gods word on it.
LOVE BENEFITS OTHERS.
Our society confuses love and lust. Unlike lust, God’s kind of love is directed outward toward others, not inward toward ourselves. It is utterly unselfish. This kind of love goes against our natural inclinations. It is possible to practice this love only if God helps us set aside our own desires and instincts, so that we can give love while expecting nothing in return. Thus the more we become like Christ, the more love we will show to others.
BIBLE READING: 1 John 2:1-11
KEY BIBLE VERSE: Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment, for it is an old one you have always had, right from the beginning. This commandment-to love one another-is the same message you heard before. Yet it is also new. This commandment is true in Christ and is true among you, because the darkness is disappearing and the true light is already shining. (1 John 2:7-8)
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MH (Tim), I know exactly what you mean. In fact, I wrote another blog this morning that touches on that very thing. So I can definitely identify with ya! :-)
Keith, funny thing is, Pastor A. and I were not in disagreement (as far as I can see). She was saying the same thing, only on a more general level (how many times did I ask for specifics?). I agree with her too, agape is what's needed! :-)
MaKelly, thank you and amen, sister! |
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Robin |
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October 25, 2007 at 5:53am |
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Mike- Wow you were up late and up early this am.
Pastor A- Agape is wonderful.
I have read all the comments and really believe you are both saying the same thing, just one is from the north and one the south, so to speak. Different directions.
Jesus showed perfect agape love. Yes, we all can agree to that. If we look at Jesus' life and all He said and did... you'll see He expressed agape in human terms differently to different people. The woman at the well.... He agaped her by sharing about "water". The woman with the issue of blood....He agaped her with compassion. The man with the ill son at home (military man), all he needed was commands and he would obey.... Jesus agaped him by just His word. I am sure there are many others...feeding the five thousand and so on.
Jesus showed agape love in very real human ways... so each person could understand and feel the fullness of His love. Jesus said He only said what the Father told Him to say and did only what the Father told HIm to say. (I'm not good at quoting and referencing) We are to follow Jesus' example....so we are to express agape in the manner in which He did. We are imperfect people show we do miss the mark, however the doesn't mean we are not to stive for this perfect agape love.
On a personal side, my husband and I have read the Five Love Languages and are making changes in "how" we express our love to each other. The reason is because we want the other to be content and fullfilled in our relationship. By doing this, showing love/agape to the other in a manner in which is their strength. our relationship has improved greatly.
Mike, thanks for the thought provoking blog. I trust this makes sense and is a blessing. |
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| Robin, yes you sure do make sense, and your comments are indeed a blessing -- thank you! Very good point about how Jesus didn't agape everyone he came into contact with the exact same way. You understood my point, and took it up a notch! :-) |
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Mike this was truly a great discussion last night. You said, Pastor A. and I were not in disagreement (as far as I can see). She was saying the same thing, only on a more general level (how many times did I ask for specifics?). That's funny, because I saw your question for "specifics" as general. lol. You can't get more specific than Jesus Christ.
Forumulas and theories are just that, formulas and theories... they make good copy, sell books, might even get one a noble peace prize, but God's Word saves souls. 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
As far as I can see, you can't get anymore specific than this. Mike and I were not in disagreement, it's just I wouldn't offer him a general example for his specific question...lol
PA |
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| Mike I think now we should get into the practical side of our aga-pae ing. From our experience let us see how we can be more practical on the basis of the scripture. Let us apply our real life experience. Otherwise, I see that you and Pastor A are going to be locked into specifics and non specifics. |
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| Ragland, I agree! That's why I liked Robin's post. She made the connection, that even agape has to be individualized for the recipient. I don't know the people in your life, so I can't tell you exactly how to agape them. But I know the folks I live with, hang with, church with, live adjacent to. I can customize the way I agape them so that they feel agape'd. Right? |
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| Yeah. You are right. But agape-ing is about with strangers and unknown people. How one impacts their lives. Thats what Jesus did. So its not with whom I know, its about with whom I dont know. Am I right or no? |
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This is what Robin has said in her comments: On a personal side, my husband and I have read the Five Love Languages and are making changes in "how" we express our love to each other. The reason is because we want the other to be content and fullfilled in our relationship. By doing this, showing love/agape to the other in a manner in which is their strength. our relationship has improved greatly.
Here she talks about agape is between spouses, because husband and wife is considered to be one body. If you are together, that is what is expected from you as a christian. Agape is to be shared with 'neighbours' and others. Do you agree?
Strangers are always strangers. In your place you have strangers and in my place I have strangers. How do we agape strangers and unknown people is what I want to bring out. |
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| Ahhh, maybe that's where Pastor A. and I were diverging -- people we know vs. strangers. You can customize your agape with people you know (topic of my blog), but it's next to impossible to do this w/strangers (Pastor A's comments). We are indeed called to agape (love) strangers, though we will have to do so in ways that are universally seen and approved, since we don't have enough info to adjust our agape to meet their specific needs. 1 Cor 13 gives some general guidelines on love (agape), as does Rom 12 and Phil 2. And probably a lotta other places. Good point, Ragland. Thanks for opening my eyes! |
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Glenn |
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October 25, 2007 at 7:06am |
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Mike another great discussion you have started. I don't have time to read everyones comment right now, but something struck me that I would like to put down now before I return to read all when I have more time.
Doesn't Jesus call us to love our neighbor as ourself? Well what does loving ourself look like?
I think love is giving of ourself in time and energy. I am actually not very good at this whole subject but love seems to be a sacrifice thing more than anything else.
I recognize what you are saying about understanding what love looks like to the other person. I think I will need to rethink how my love looks from a different perspective to really get this whole thing of loving one another.
peace |
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Glenn |
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October 25, 2007 at 7:07am |
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| forgot the star. |
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