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| What do you believe....? |
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| Recently, I have found that their are many different types of "Christians" in this community. Some of which deny fundamental doctrines of the Faith. And while I do not claim to have all the answers, I do believe that dialogue can help people find the truth. There are some who deny the Trinity. The following is an excerpt from one of the best apologetic websites I have ever found, www.carm.org . Would someone who denies the Trinity please explain. - Is Jesus His own Father?
- If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father? See my article on this.
- Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?
- If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still praying to Himself?
- Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but MY will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke 22:42 & Matt. 26:39.
- If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get baptized but is killed by a car. Does he go to heaven or hell?
- If he goes to heaven, then baptism isn't a requirement is it?
- If he goes to hell, then faith in Christ isn't sufficient to save him is it?
- Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how does the Oneness Pentecostal person maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit? Also, when Jesus returns, will He return in His body? Will God's form then revert to the form of the Son at a later date?
- If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?
- Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-8). But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?
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| To add a comment to "What do you believe....?" |
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| February 02, 2007 |
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| Just because one claimes to be a Christian doesn't mean that they are a Christian. But one thing that all true believers have in common is a correct understanding of who God is, God the Father, God the son and God the spirit. nothing more, nothing less. For instance the Muslims, JW and Mormons all denie that Christ is God, yet two of the three will still call themselves Christians.As I understand it, God is God, He is the same always.If you subtract even one of His, personalities you are altering what cannot be altered, thus creating your own god and committing idolatry.
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| February 05, 2007 |
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| Well, that's the thing about Christianity. Everyone always going to have their little disagreements and difference of opinion here and there. However, the cool thing about Christianity is that basically it boils down to something really simple:
"For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
That's not the whole story though.
"For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him"
You see, that's what Christianity boils down to when it's taken into the simplest of simple. Those bare bones are where we all agree on. Granted, as you add more things that can be interpreted differently, people will develop different views based on their culture, upbringing, personal bias, and even how willing they are to go deep into the ancient Greek and Hebrew translations for the "origional" meanings. |
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| February 08, 2007 |
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| Due to their proximity to the original apostles, I think the Apostles' Creed and the subsequent elaboration called the Nicene Creed are sufficient statements that capture the essentials of our faith. Peace! |
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| February 08, 2007 |
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| Alice, perfect comment to this blog! Even better than mine! If I'm ever in Texas, I'll visit fellership! Social networking rules!!! |
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| February 10, 2007 |
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| Thanks to Matt Slick over at The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry for his hard work and dedication to equipping fellow believers.
I think it should be obvious to Believers that the Trinity is an essential Christian doctrine. To deny that Christ is God incarnate is to deny Christ as Saviour, Redeemer, Creator....God. Objections to the Trinity are that the concept does not make sence or sound possible. In the same way we make excuses for how we live and what we think is "Okay" as a Christian without consulting God's Word. Logic and personal preference should never rule over scripture.
"...there are many different types of "Christians" in this community"
Are there, I mean really? Chris, I think you and I are on the same page in many ways. It seems that the title, "Christian", is used by anyone who say they "believe" in Jesus, or that a man lived and His name was Jesus, or by people who follow the teachings of a man called Jesus, by those who associate themselves with a church or denomination that is based on "Christian Doctrine", and on and on and on....
I suppose I have to ask is everyone who says "I'm a Christian", really a follower of Jesus Christ? Are we all true believers in Christ? Whoa...to ask that, you might have to assume not every "Christian" is saved...we just might be in trouble here. Stepping on toes is not so easy, especially in todays world. But we really need to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and see people coming to God through the work of the Holy Spirit. (I just mentioned the Trinity in one sentence..and wow does that fit appropriately.)
Salvation is something that is given to us by God. It is a free gift (Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.). The sinner is made righteous in God's eyes only by the faith in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Justification is accomplished by faith (Rom. 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ). Our works play no part in salvation. If our works could play any part at all, then Jesus died needlessly (Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!").
I think it is important for us to evaluate ourselves and others along the way to be sure we are, in Christ, as we say we are. Not to create doubt, but to bring a peace of mind and heart to those who may struggle and not be able to enjoy the relationship they feel they have with Christ. But most importantly, to bring those that may not be saved, to know Christ and true Salvation only found in Him! How wonderful to know Him as Lord!
Peace to you and
may your ministry grow!
CJ
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| February 10, 2007 |
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| Mark, Alice, CJ,
This moght help you to know where I was coming from. I was "correcting" (I know that's not the right word, but go with me here) some posts made on a blog by someone I felt was mislead on their doctrine. I know what you're thinking, but hear me out. One night I sat down to check the blogs and something just spoke to my heart (I feel like God was leading) and told me to look at this person's Church and see their statement of beliefs. This "Church" doesn't believe in the "heretical teachings such as, the Rapture, the Trinity, eternal torture chambers, or free will." That's a quote from of of the website I found through MyChurch. I hope this helps you to understand why I wrote this blog with this title. |
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| February 11, 2007 |
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| Yeah Chris,
I actually thought that you might be "correcting" or pointing out something in a subtle way. I too see a similar thing happening at many Churches with people "rubbing elbows" with others of different purposes and different faiths; this pushed me to reply to your blog. I was not directing anything towards you or what you wrote. I think I just agreed with your blog by dialogue with you through posting another blog ...lol!...What?!?! It's early....I need coffee...Christ's love & Have a great day at Church! |
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| February 13, 2007 |
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| I've noticed that in many of your comments in other blogs, you reference John 3:16 quite a bit -- "For God so loved the world" (not the planet, as you put it, but the people. If that is true, that God loves everyone, why then does he tell us not to conform ourselves to the world? What other world could he possibly be talking about? |
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| February 13, 2007 |
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| Linda,
That God so loved the whole world is undisputable. Jesus gave his life as a ransom for ALL men (1 Tim 2:6), God wants ALL men to be saved (1 Tim 2:3), God says "turn to me and be saved, ALL you ends of the earth (Isaiah 45)," etc.
Paul actually tells us "Do not conform any longer to the PATTERN of this world (Rom 12)," meaning the ungodly behavior we see all around us.
Peter also says "I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul (1 Pet 2)."
Neither contradict in the least with John 3:16. Those are my thoughts! ~God bless, mike
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| February 13, 2007 |
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| From Albert Barnes' notes on the Bible:
The world - All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man - the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die. See Joh_6:33; Joh_17:21. His love for the world, or for all mankind, in giving his Son, was shown by these circumstances:
1. All the world was in ruin, and exposed to the wrath of God.
2. All people were in a hopeless condition.
3. God gave his Son. Man had no claim on him; it was a gift - an undeserved gift.
4. He gave him up to extreme sufferings, even the bitter pains of death on the cross.
5. It was for all the world. He tasted “death for every man,” Heb_2:9. He “died for all,” 2Co_5:15. “He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world,” 1Jo_2:2.
Linda, since man has a free-will, he chooses to love God.
Also, you shouldn't take parts of verses and try to make a point. For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Hard for the Father to give His son if they are the same person, or different modes of the same person. Also, everlasting life as opposed to eternal torment in Hell.
Saved by Grace,
Brother Chris |
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| February 13, 2007 |
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| Sorry, meant to include this.
God so loved the world that He gave. Don't just stop at the word world. |
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| February 14, 2007 |
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| I just came back to this blog to see if anyone else had posted replies. In returning, I also was pointed toward the "church" you were speaking about, Chris.
At what I just read at the church's site and member's pages, I am overwhelmed by this group. I feel sad for what they are doing to the actual Church (Christ's Church).
I feel angry at the self proclaimed "pastor's" misleading these people. I have to ask why he has a private profile if he is teaching sound doctrine and is not a false teacher. Somehow, I do not think it is for the sake of privacy but for secrecy and concealment. My guess.
I am in awe that people in this church have in their profiles that their favorite book is the bible...they obviously don't use it to discern or test what they are taught.
Ok...I think I will just stop here. If not, I will Blog on your Blog. Perhaps I will just create a Blog of my own. I do want to paste the following from the church's page and let others read it. You can delete my reply if you want. But others can read this and make their own opinions.
"All the things that could be said about our church could occupy a very large space. This is the most hated church in town. Our worship is a laughingstock, a gazingstock. Our preaching drives people away, and casts stumblingblocks before them that stumble at the word, being disobedient whereunto they also were appointed. This is the Lord's work, and it is marvellous."
In Christ, CJ
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| February 14, 2007 |
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| Joel,
I was addressing my comment to Chris in reference to another conversation we were having about an entirely different blog subject. We have different beliefs in regard to being 'the called' or the elect, choosing, and who the "all and any" were referring to in some scripture verses we had shared, so I'm sure my comment must have seemed totally off the wall to you. Sorry for the confusion. I should have kept my comments in that particular blog, but I couldn't seem to locate it again when I came back to the website.
Peace,
Linda
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| February 14, 2007 |
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| Linda,
It was called "Call and Reponse" I think. I'll try to find it for you. It is not easy finding older blogs once they leave the active page.
Bro Chris
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| February 15, 2007 |
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| Chris,
Where DO the old blogs go and how can you access them again? Sorry, I'm not real 'up' on maneuvering through these sites and do appreciate the help. Thanks. |
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| February 16, 2007 |
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| Ms Linda,
I star alot of the blogs I want to keep up with. You can also subscribe to that bloggers feed and find it. I have also remembered who wrote it and them find them, click on their oicture and you can find it if it hasn't been deleted by the original poster.
Bro Chris |
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| February 18, 2007 |
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| Hi Sue,
I'm under the impression that you may think that I believe in the oneness doctrine. I do not, nor do I believe in the Trinity doctrine because the Trinity concept was created by men at the Councel of Nicea. Probably all of the church denominations out there who call themselves "Christian" would say that I am not a believer because my beliefs do not line up with the so called Church Fathers.
I believe there is only One Father, Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church. What I do believe is that there is a Godhead, (Romans 1:20), which consists of the Father, who is the eternal Spirit, and His son who was created as the image/form of God, (Heb 1:4-6, Col. 1:15-17). He abode with God in the beginning, where he is referred to as The Word, (John 3:1-3), and he spoke everything into existence, (Heb. 1:10.) Then, at an appointed time, the Father overshadowed Mary and now The Word takes on human form, (The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, John 1:14). So now we have all the fullness of God the Father, which is Spirit, dwelling in the man Christ Jesus (form/image), and that's why Jesus could make the statements, "When you see me you have seen the Father", and "I and my Father are one". Jesus declares, "It's not me that doeth the works, but my Father which is in me, he doeth the works." I believe that after God's divine will and purpose for His son Jesus was accomplished here on earth and when he was crucified, died, buried, resurrected and ascended, then the Holy Ghost was sent, (Acts 2:1-4, John 14:16,26). So, now we have the Holy Spirit at work which requires no form or image, for the Bible declares that there is but one spirit. (John 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (Spirit/Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I'm denying man made doctrines, nothing else. Linda
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| February 21, 2007 |
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| Linda,
Just so I can get a better grasp on this, then who was Jesus praying to asking that this cup pass from Him?
In Genesis, Let us make man in our image...
Help me to understand your view on this. |
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| February 21, 2007 |
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| Chris,
When Jesus was in his earthly form as a man, he was fully man. So, the way I understand it, Jesus, the man, was praying to his Father, the eternal spirit. He was not praying to himself. The way you have posed your question is as a counter to the oneness doctrine. In regard to Jesus' will according to the Bible, his will as a man was not the same as the Father's will. However Jesus always did things to please the Father which included submitting to the Father's will over his own, i.e. not my will but thine be done.
As for the passage in Genesis, Let us make man in our image, Jesus was created better than the angels which tells me that even in the beginning Jesus had a form after which man could be created. That form was the image of the invisible God and indwelth by the Spirit of the Father. The Father is always Spirit. The son is always the image/form. So, you have The Father and the son. A good example of this is when Jesus walked on the water; the image/form did the walking, however, the Spirit gave it the ability.
Peace,
Linda |
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| February 21, 2007 |
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| Where do you find that Jesus was created? |
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| February 21, 2007 |
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| Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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| February 22, 2007 |
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| I believe Jesus WAS created, and then everything else was created by Jesus. (including "evil". He created evil, too. That one blew my mind. Is 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.") I am not sure where the scriptures are to back up that Jesus was created, but i know they are there. if anyone reading this really really wants to understand, i can refer you to someone who does know and can teach you.
ALSO: The scriptures tells us that God does not love everybody, altho most WANT to believe it. Many, if not most people want to think everyone goes to heaven, especially when one of their loved ones die. Have you ever gone to a funeral where the minister says, yep this guys gonna burn in hell? Probably not. everyone wants to believe God will forgive them and they will be in heaven one day. if i was going to make up a religion, that would be dandy, don't you think? perfectly set up to decieve. oh yes, and God has allowed that deception. why? God wants people to be decieved. what?!? hey, its all there in the bible. if you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.
if you consider the statement that God doesn't love everybody, you might think, he might not love me. scary thought. Before they were born, God LOVED Jacob and HATED Easu. They didn't even do anything yet. and GOd had decided who He will love and who he will hate. Again, God accepted Able but rejected Cain. Not everyone who says they believe in Jesus is making it to heaven.
these things we have said are the truth. i know you don't like it because it challenges the false teachings you have accepted as truth. fine. so now here is the real truth spoken by Linda and me. what will you do? reject it? if you were made for destruction, yes you will reject everything we have said. if you were made for eternal life, because God decided before you were born that He will Love you, then something inside will be stirred to find out more. and the others...they will hate the words we speak. because they hate truth and they hate God.
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| February 22, 2007 |
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| Hi Youth Pastor,
I like to use the authorized King James version of the Bible.
The following is where I get my understanding that Jesus was created:
Heb. 1:1-10 - 1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake
in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(I just used the above verses to establish that we are speaking of Jesus here in the next verses to come,)
Vs. 4 - Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a moe excellent name than they.
Vs. 4 says, He was 'made', that tells me Jesus was made or created.
and it goes on to say, 5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Vs. 6, to my understanding, is telling me that God the Father said to the angels that they should worship Jesus.
and it goes on to say, 7) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Now vs. 8 is of the utmost importance because it Biblically establishes Jesus as God. The Father is speaking and he says, 8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10) And, Thou, Lord, (here the Father refers to Jesus his son as Lord,)in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Those verses, I think do a great job of clarifying that Jesus was created by the Father, that he is considered by the Father and all the host of heaven to be God, and that we are to worship him as God.
Col. 1:12-19 does a nice job in showing that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature, and that he created all things. I also love the fact that in these verses it says that he is the head of the body, the church (it says church, not churches, which also confirms to me that he did not intend for folks to go off and make up religions to suit themselves, but that there is only one church.
Eph. 4:5&6 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism 6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (The 'all' referring to all that are His from the foundation of the world.) |
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| February 22, 2007 |
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| Hi Sue,
Yes, I praise the Lord that Pat and I have been drawn by the Spirit of Truth to the body of Christ.
I do believe that Jesus is God and I confess that Jesus is come in the flesh.
Peace,
Linda |
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| February 22, 2007 |
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| Linda,
Heb 1:4 - Being made so much better than the angels,.... Christ is so much better than the angels, as the Creator, than the creature; as an independent being, than a dependent one; as he that blesses, than he that is blessed; as he that is worshipped, than he that worships: as a king, than his subjects; as a master, than his servants; and as he that sends, than he that is sent: and Christ may be said to be "made so", when he was manifested and declared to be so; and he was actually preferred to them, and exalted above them in human nature, after he had expiated the sins of his people, and when he was set down at the right hand of God, as in the latter part of the preceding verse, with which these words stand connected; for in his state of humiliation, and through his sufferings and death, he was made lower than they; but when he was risen from the dead, and ascended to heaven, he was placed at the right hand of God, where none of them ever was, or ever will be: besides, the phrase, "being made", signifies no more than that "he was"; and so the Syriac version renders it, "and he was so much better than the angels"; and so the Ethiopic version, "he is so much better": and this is observed, to prove him to be more excellent than any creature, since he is preferred to the most excellent of creatures; and to show, that the Gospel dispensation is superior to the legal dispensation, which was introduced by the ministration of angels; and to take off the Jews from the worship of angels, to which they were prone: and this doctrine of his could not be well denied by them, since it was the faith of the Jewish church, that the Messiah should be preferred to the angels: for in their ancient writings they say of him, he shall be exalted above Abraham, he shall be lifted up above Moses, and be higher than the ministering angels (s); and that he is above them, appears from what follows,- John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
Upon the completed work of Christ on the cross, He had finished what He had come to do. These verses also show us that our Heavenly FAther and His Son Jesus are two distinct entities with two different roles. They are one and of one mind, will. We haven't even gotten to the third part of the Trinity. You have already admitted that the Holy Spirit is here with us on Earth right now, and the verses in Hebrews reminds us of what David says in the Psalms, that he is sitting at the right hand of the Father.
At Jesus' baptism, Jesus is in the water (Son of God), the dove is descending (Holy Spirit of God) and the voice from Heaven (God the Father) saying, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased."
Now, are you all Modalists?
Those verses aren't refering to the moment of Creation as far as Jesus being "made". It was when He ascended, after His comleted work. For that matter, after Jesus had come in the flesh, He alone was called The Son of God. Not a son, but the Son. No angel and no man has that distinction.
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| February 23, 2007 |
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| Alice,
I love it when you ask questions. The word logos was capitalized in John because it is used with the definite arcticle "the". Not "a word", but "the Word."
The Trinity doctrine wasn't added by man like most people think. Around the year AD 207, there was a man named Praxeas. Very little is known of Praxeas and some even think him to have been the bishop of Rome(pre-Pope). This same Praxeas had introduced an idea that God was one entity that had existed in three forms. He was God the Father in the OT, Jesus Christ in the NT, and now reigns in the form of the Holy Spirit. Tertulian championed the idea that "god was one substance and three persons. Likewise, when discussing how Jesus can be both human and divine, he speaks of "one person" and "two substances" or "natures", the divine and the human. Now, from the foundation of the Church until this point in history, the Trinity doctrine was alost an "understood." When someone tried to "teach" this new doctrine (non-trinitarian), Tertulian defended it and "coined the formulas that would eventually become the hall mark of orthodoxy." -quotes from The History of Christianity by Justo Gonzalez.
As to the Goof, let's look at everything Peter said right there and place it in its proper context:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel[Jews], hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore [David] being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ [the annointed one] to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter was speaking to Jews here (men of Israel). This is also where many who are confused about tongues begin to get off track. Keep in mind Peter is talking to Jews, some who had heard, seen, and followed this same Jesus around for about 3 years. Now, I want to show what Mark wrote after the day of Pentecost (because the Gospel of Mark was written later). Also keep in mind that Church history teaches that John Mark (Mark) becomes Peter's traveling companion and scribe. Here's what Mark wrote:
Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Peter didn't goof, the Jews were looking for a Messiah. The same Messiah that David had wriiten about and Peter wuotes in the Acts verses above. Peter was trying to prove that Jesus was indeed that Messiah, the Son of God, as proven by signs and wonders that He did among them.
In Him,
Brother Chris
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| February 23, 2007 |
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| Youth Pastor,
Hmmm? Let me pray and study your last comment out some more. Thanks for your time and effort.
Peace,
Linda |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Hi Sue,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on the 'issues' I have with the trinity.
Okay, it seems to me that the trinity has always been shrouded in mystery. A mystery for sure, it never made much sense to me, 3 is 1 yet 1 is all three yet all 3 are 1 and 1 is all 3? If this is the central doctrine of our Christian faith, then why is it so difficult to understand? It is my belief that God wants His people to know without a shadow of a doubt who He is. Scripture even confirms this: Romans 1:20 says "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY seen, being understood by the things that are made (you and me,) even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. (The CAPS, bold, and parentheses are mine, the rest is the Bible.
From what I understand from reading about Church history, the trinity's roots are of a pagan origin; they were doctored up a little bit by the Greek philosophers and then tweaked again a little more by the so-called Church Fathers of Rome at the Council of Nicaea A.D. 325. It seems strange to me that the trinity, which supposedly is one of the pillars of Christianity, didn't come into existence and wasn't recognized until 300 years after Christ's death. On this point alone, isn't it curious that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and even worse, the circumstances in which this teaching came about? Wouldn't you think that a clear thinking person would at least be suspicious? But it seems that most people are embarrassed because they can't explain it, so they just accept it as truth and explain it way as a mystery. I guess if you twist scripture enough you can pretty much make it fit just about anything. Anyway, Christ did not teach this doctrine, nor did his apostles. To me it is not biblical. It has a Christian appearance but a pagan heart.
Peace,
Linda |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Linda,
Here's something to think about, multiplicity is not a new concept for you or I. When we married our spouses, "the two become one." This concept goes back even as far as the Old Testament.
There was a formal decision issued in AD 325 to counter a heresy that was being taught. That's all. It was an "official" decree. If you go back and look at the ones making the claim that there was no Trinity, some of these same groups of people were trying to do away with all things Jewish as well. Look at some of the groups known as Modalists, Gnostics, Montanists. Irenaeus was around in the second century and he is probably one of the best early church fathers to read.
Christ did teach it. When His disciples ask Him to teach them to pray, He told the to pray to the Father. He told them it was necessary for him to go away, for if He didn't, then the Father would not send them the Comforter.
The Apostles taught it also, see the verses Joel used. Also, Paul opens many of his letter with things like "Grace and Peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ." Now, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit because the recipients of the letter already had Him! Praise God! You're about to make me have a Hallelujah fit.
Look, this is a mystery that i cannot fully explain, but I see it throughout scripture. I can't explain why a man I never knew would be beaten half to death, hang upon a rugged wooden cross, then cry out to the Father for my forgiveness before I was even born. But I believe it.
Humbly Greatful,
Brother Chris |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Chris, Joel, honest question for you: Is Linda going to hell if she cannot (or even will not) see the doctrine of the Trinity? I think readers deserve a substantive treatment of this essential question. |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Chris, Hi.
Back to a previous conversation; the question of Jesus being created. In Colossians 1, I'm going to begin in verse 12 to establish that it's Jesus that Paul is talking about, it says, "Giving thanks unto the Father which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Now, in vs. 15 it goes on to say, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every CREATURE:
CREATURE according to Strong's Concordance, 2937; ktisis in the Greek, from 2936; orig. formation); (prop: the act; by impl. the thing; lit. or fig..): -- building, creation, creature, ordinance.
To me vs. 15 confirms that Jesus, the firstborn was created. This is where The Word, who, as you said, was in the beginning with God and was God, now takes on the created form or image that God gives him, (the image of the invisible God). So yes, I still believe Jesus was created by the Father and then He (Jesus) went on to create all things.
Kind regards,
Linda |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Jesus was the firstborn of every creature. To the Hebrew people, the tradition was that the first born had prominance over all. Jesus is the firstborn because He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the World. He is the first born of the new creation. He has made all things new.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
All in the Greek means all. He created all things, even all things in heaven. He is before all things and they did not exist until he made them.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John would have to be telling us that Jesus made himself.
Thanks for the dialogue,
Bro Chris
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| Hey Wyatt, how are you tonight?
Regarding your comment on 1 John 5:7; I studied it out a little and found that this scripture was added to the New Testament manuscripts probably as late as the eighth century A.D. The only Greek manuscripts, in any form, support the words, 'In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth...' but are not part of the original text. Even though some scholars recognize that I John 5:7 is not part of the New Testament text, it is still included by some fundamentalists as biblical proof for the trinity doctrine. Even the majority of the more recent New Testament translations do not contain the above words. They are not found in Moffatt, Phillips, the Revised Standard Version, Williams, or The Living Bible (a paraphrase).
It is clear, then, that these words are not part of the inspired canon, but rather were added by a "recent hand." The two verses in 1 John SHOULD read:
"For there are three that bear record, the Spirit, and the water and the blood: and these three agree in one."
Three things bear record, but what do they bear record to? A trinity? The Spirit, the water and the blood bear record of the fact that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is living His life over again in us. John clarifies it in verses 11-12:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." But how do these three elements -- the Spirit, the water, and the blood -- specifically bear witness to this basic biblical truth?
"The Spirit beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Rom. 8:16).
"The water represents baptism, which bears witness of the burial of the old self and the beginning of a new life" (Rom.6:1-6, and
"The blood represents Christ's death which pays the penalty for our sins, reconciling us to God" (Rom. 5:9, 10).
You can say that John proposes a trinitarian explanation here, but that's just another opinion, and to be honest, it's not all that clear to everyone. Linda
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| I don't see how any scripture that I used to state what I believe even came close to saying that Jesus created himself. Where did that come from? I didn't even reference any scriptures in John. Sorry, I don't get your explanation this time, Youth Pastor.
Good night, for now.
Linda |
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| February 26, 2007 |
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| The verses clearly state that ther was nothing made that Hedid not make. I brought up the verse in John, for that's what it says.
I've got something to show you tomorrow. |
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| September 03, 2007 |
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Pastor I know that I do not have to defend the word of God and I do not, because God's word never returns void. Don't add nothing to it or take anything away from it.
God's word,I belive it God said and that settles it.
I do not get into debates conerning the word of God because we know there is a lot of different beliefs in this world, but when you know the truth it will set you free. |
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