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| So You Speak Greek? |
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I have noticed a trend since I have been back to blogging that is a little unnerving. I am not trying to belittle anyone here, that is not my intent. I have been away from blogging for a time and since my return I am noticing a lot of translators explaining to people why their literal translations of what is written in the Bible are incorrect b/c somehow they have the answers and I am seeing the people being swayed by that. Add to that I have also watched a blog that seemed to have an outstanding point in saying that we should not be worshipping the Bible turn down a street where people are being led by God not to read His Word.
The major danger that comes from this direction of thinking is that many "Christians" feel they can draw closer to God without reading His Word. I think that realizing that though God's Word is incorruptable, it was put to pen by imperfect people is good, we must remember that it is the only tangible means by which we learn of Him intimately.
I know many people who have had an "encounter" with God that is absolutely not of God...and the person in the situation would have recognized that if he was in the Word. God speaks through His Word...and I again will stand firmly that on the fact that although there are errors in the manuscripts, they are mostly spelling errors within the translations and NONE of them have any implications on our faith.
There are many self-proclaimed greek biblical scholars in church groups just like the football stadiums across the states have profession coaches filling the stands if you have the chance to listen. I have had numerous people in my years of ministry try to impress my with the fact that they own a greek Bible and are studying the greek translations...but the facts are simple. If you have been studying Greek for 20 years and not on your own but under a Greek scholar, your opinion of the greek translations are valid. If not, you might as well read a few medical books and try to attempt a heart transplant.
The greek language cannot be translated properly by people who approach it in english. I spent enough time being formally taught to learn I have no clue what I am doing (for the most part) and have no business translating it other than finding out some neat perspectives.
A word in greek means an infinite number of things (all different) based upon its roots, its prefixes, its suffixes, the words in front of it and the words behind it. The last major re-translation of the original documents began in the 1950's and ended in the late 1970's. The panel of translators included the best, most educated translators possible dedicated to the exact translations of the original refusing to paraphrase. That birthed the New King James, New American Standard, and the New English Standard versions.
To those who don't speak greek, read your Bible as you have and stay away from those who would say they have better insight on what the original documents said that those who dedicated their lives to doing so. That is how the Jehovah witness cult began...that is how Jim Brown led his people astray and it is how even today we have churches acting in a cultish manner.
Even with the simple mistakes (few and far between) they almost must have been divine b/c with them in mind, the Bible is mathematically impossible for man to have written. The challenge for a man to write a single sentence using the numerical values of both the aramaic and greek writings and that sentence to make any sense has been unapproached for 1400 years. The Bible mathematically has no chance of survival though its history (a staggering 1 in 98billion chance of being here) yet...here it is. Most of what people point out as contradications are not...they are assuming that in 2 hours of reading that the events over hundreds of years listed in several different books are the same events.
To those who are studying greek...you will know when you are an expert when the letter p, h, and d follow your name in greek studies. You will also be approached by universities everywhere since it is very difficult to find an accurate, educated greek scholar. I, like you, enjoy reading the greek definitions as an attempt to maybe find a new perspective...but if what you are defining changes the message of the word you are the one car that finds himself being attacked by every other car on the road yet refuses to acknowledge he is on the wrong lane of a one way road.
The Lord gave us language and understanding...He gave us the greatest tangible gift possible...His Word and while the physical book is not to be made into an idol and worshipped, it is the only means by which God is understood in this world. All of creation points to His majesty, but only though the Bible is it explained. If what you read challenges your opinions on what you feel worship and Godly living is, perhaps you should be redefining your life, not the Bible. |
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| All the languages in this world have originated from God. It is good that a part of the Bible was written in the original Greek language. But God does not want all of us to learn this great language. There are millions in this world who do not have even the gospels in their mother tongues. It is the message of the gospel and the truth of God's word that should be preached and understood. |
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Sue |
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October 30, 2007 at 2:22am |
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Well said Bro! I think some people have obtained too much knowledge for their own good. Instead of learning from the Word to grow a closer relationship with the Savior, they obtain knowledge to have sword fights with fellow believers. What a shame. Shame, shame! The Sword of the Spirit is to be used to fight the enemy, satan, not our fellow believers.
You really get it! Keep up the great post! |
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Job I agree...there are Christians right now putting there life in danger to get the Bible written as it is (hopefully in there own language) yet we don't feel it is enough.
Sue, thanks for the post, I agree, and unfortunately in times past have been guilty of welding the swourd myself...and I promised never to do it again (or at least try...I will post a blog when perfection has been attained...IN HEAVEN)
Jack, I read the post you linked and, though it is a neat story, I disagree. The Bible itself says it is NOT subject to interpretation. It is not the FIGURATIVE Word of God to be twisted and so on. When a person decides to go "past" the writing what is the boundary? It is the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing, not the white. And I have heard many people who choose not to follow the Word in their lives do that very same thing...they also will bring up the book of Thomas and the DiVinci code. Allowing the written word not to be the standard opens up a door that the enemy has his name plated on as well as it goes against the scriptures itself.
2Ti 3:14 But continue in the things that you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 2Ti 3:15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
Rev 22:18 For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book. Why then are there differences of interpretations of the letters...b/c we are imperfect. And most interpretations differences fall around denominational lines. Most differences that I have seen are really due to a person uncomfortable with anothers approach (not that it is a bad thing b/c there are some weird things) but if you decide within yourself you are right about something than manipulate the Word to prove it, there is nothing you can't prove. I have to get to work...and in response to the "calm down" I aint worked up.
Enjoyed the responses and look forward to them
Have a great day guys (and try sleeping at night) |
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| OUTSTANDING blog! (This will probably be the only one I read today, and if so, I'm confident that I read the RIGHT one.) Thanks Pat!! ~mike
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| I always believed that it was the Holy Spirit that gave the understanding. Having taught for 16 years although i had no formal training my teacher has been the Holy Spirit. He is the one that instructs, equips, and prepares us for ministry as we are all givien the ministry of reconciliation. Keep up the good work. The youth of this nation need leaders that will not compromise the word. Shalom |
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| Definitely two thumbs up for this blog! |
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Gene |
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October 30, 2007 at 10:02am |
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A Christian who isn't reading scripture is going to lose their footing. But taken to the other extreme, a Christian who only reads scripture and doesn't sometimes simply stop and listen to that still, quiet Voice of God within them will miss what God is calling them to do. The healthy life of a Christian requires a balance of several things to include worship, scripture study, prayer, fasting, awareness of God within and around, and responding to what we are called to do.
I completely support your position regarding hitting the Greek. If we can't trust the Holy Spirit to guide the people who translated from Hebrew and Greek into English, then how we can say that we trust the Holy Spirit's work in scripture at all?
Gene |
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| I just caught a quick glimpse of the responses...and unfortunately am in the middle of work, but I will respond tonight. Look forward to then |
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| The story of the white was interesting, but the tangible truth about Jesus is in the black. The white (between the lines) is just as often what people make it to be as what the Spirit makes it to be. If there be 100 errors throughout the black, then there are certainly 10,000,000 in the white! ~mike |
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Sorry guys but I work pretty long days...I will try to address everyone.
Arctic...you might want to know that until the release of the NKJV, NAS, and NES, the KJV was the only "standard" (that means the only Bible translated directly from the earliest greek and latin (preferrably greek) documents). Even in its revision (originally written 1611) in the 1800's only 20 greek documents were available. Every other version is a paraphrased version and interpretations must be weighed against the standards. Fortunately over the last 100 years with the major architectual finds the scholars who re-translated the last set of standards (1978-ish) had over 2000 greek documents. The NIV, NLB, AMP, MES, LAB, GNB, and so on are all paraphrases great for personal study but in no way are to be used for interpretation of revelation. Just thought you might want to know.
Jay, thanks for the comment. I would hope that you have someone you have been able to weigh what you feel the Lord is telling you. I am sure you will agree that there is no such thing as ministry without accountablility and that ministers who are self proclaimed can often by ticking time-bombs. Reading your bio, I see you attend a church. Biblically, there is not a single instance of a person who was in ministry that did not receive instruction from a human and many people don't follow that guideline. That being said, I am glad you stopped in.
Paator Tim, thanks...I'll take that
Gene, I agree, a balance must exist or the Bible becomes a novel. However it is important that people are reading their Bible and not soley relying on what they "feel" God is telling them b/c the Bible is the source to weigh that out. I will explain that more in detail in a minute.
Jack, Jack...where do I begin. I understood you metaphorical story, it has no basis of "meat" as you call it my friend. The Bible is the means by which we are introduced and understand Jesus. Any "experience" we have outside of the Word must be weighed against it to be sure that we are not erring from the truth. You obviously have a gift in teaching as I have read much of what you have to say...your comments where not the major reason I wrote this blog so lighten up though the story did have a motivating factor in itself. I myself am a teacher and am not void of knowledge but I feel, again, in this case what you are saying could quickly be taken in an extreme that you yourself would never want someone to go.
I understand that we must not approach the Bible as a novel as many people do reading for stories and trying to just pack as much scripture as possible in without meditating on any of it never gaining understanding and I understood that from your post...I think we all did...so back up a second. But the extreme of what you are saying is that the "black" is not good enough and that is incorrect. The "black" is the inspired Word of God, not the "white." And many people who do not care for what the "black" has to say will choose to instead go "beyond" which is incorrect. There is no such thing as beyond the scriptures in the Holy Spirit. Every move of the Holy Spirit is to be weighed against the scriptures to be sure it is of God.
That is why the chruch movement is suffering. There is so much that occurs that is supposedly the Holy Ghost that goes against scripture that will make your mind boggle. We need to be sure every thing we do is against the scriptures.
As far as Jesus is the Word, where do you learn that? IN the black. In fact, you can't give me a revelation of the God-head (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) without referencing the black. Sorry Jack, but as a person who is constantly trying to keep God's flock from straying to the cultural acceptances of the New Orleans culture, the difference must be made.
Again I want to clarify that I read what you write, usually don't have the time to respond, and enjoy it...I am always reading Mike's blogs so please don't take this as an attack on your character b/c it is by no means that at all. I just feel the need to draw the dividing line and I don't feel you are on the other side of it. I believe it is a conflict of semantics and I want to clarify.
Now as far as the "you guys with titles" comment. Allow me to clarify. Webyouthpastor was not my idea in fact this whole mychurch wasn't. My youth group and study groups wanted a way to recognize me and this was the thought up idea. I would have written my name any day of the week yet choose not to b/c I am being solicited by youth for help all of the time. And for those who have gone through the nightmare of "earning" the title you may want to reconsider your words b/c in your lashing out at everyone with a "title" you have first defied the Bible in respecting authority, especially Godly authority and second disrespected yourself. How is one supposed to take you seriously about your compassion when this is your temperment. Someone dissagrees with you and you insult them...who is being led by a spirit of control? I can forgive you for the insult...but you better think about what we go through b/c until you accept the full resposibility of ministry, you only look on from the stands and assume you understand what it takes. Your "about me" says alot in the white. You just validated it with your explosion. You obviously have been hurt in "organized religion" hense motivating your need to be "freed of it" and I apologize for that. But whatever title most of us have earned, we have done so on our face. Think about that. That being said, I have often felt the same about people who introduce themselves to me with a title first...I am deacon so and so, prophet so and so, but usually pastors do it to make people understand they are there to serve.
I do enjoy your comments, please don't direspect yourself like that again. You have too much to say to do that. I have done it too...I know too well how easy it is to destroy years of good work in one minute.
Mike, I am right there with you. |
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Jack, to your last post, you say you have left the camp. Are you insighting that your walk with the Lord is on your own, that you do not meet regularly with believers? There is no model for what a church body should look like except what the Bible teaches. A group of believers striving in unity. We are to challenge eachother, to grow together, to walk together. There is no Biblical foundation for a lone ranger. Notice, the scripture you cited says "us" and "we" not "I". Orthedox, traditional churches make up only a percentage in the world of church groups that gather. Even those outside of the camp become traditional in doing so. Jesus commanded us to walk in unity, He established the "church" and He sent His Holy Spirit to guide it. The apostles built it. That is what Peter and James and John and Paul and Phillip and so on did to the extent of losing there lives. The church of ephesus was over 10,000 strong and Timothy was the pastor. Please tell me you don't believe you have some insight they didn't. |
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| And there is nothing wrong with tradition IF it doesn't numb those participating of the full truth and their relationship with the Lord |
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Jack...please answer one question for me: do you meet with other Christians?
Gene, I am not sure what is the source for the rush of questions you just asked or the statements you just made. As far as being in the lake of fire...I fear you are on the side of error there. He did say the temple would be destroyed and it was in 70AD in the fall of Jerusalem but that is not the abomination of desolation...The pharisees did not become hardened in their hearts b/c of too much studying, their hearts became hardened first b/c God hardened them having us gentiles in mind and second b/c they worshipped knowledge. To study to get to intimately know God is extremely different than to study to learn stunning stuff about God. You cannot get to intimately know Jesus without His Word, His written Word.
There is no sense in discussing anything when you feel you are the ultimate subject matter. I have friends that have strong differences in translation than I do. We treasure our friendship more than we value our discussions. I have no personal problem with your interpretation, though I absolutely disagree...and always will, so if you choose to have a relationship with me, keep your interpretation to yourselves. I will delete any furthur attacks on anyone...the Bible also says that we are to speak with humility and grace towards eachother. |
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| Sorry Gene, I meant to type Arctic...so again, arctic, I am not sure what the rush of questions is all about and so on...but you, like the etheopian eunich trying to understand Isaiah, need someone to help you in your understanding... |
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Well Dennis, they for a major part did not. It was largely part of the revivals that, though many felt were wrong, did many Christians return to the Bible for themselves...and used the Bible to learn to read. The Bible was the number one reading tool in America until the 1970's. Church attendance was much greater back then...as was dependance and respect on clergy (which may or may not be a good thing). But the fact is, though the country has defined itself as a Christian nation sincde its origing, much of our actions have been proof that we haven't been reading God's Word to closely, if at all, which would make sense.
Add to that that in 1950, 85% of the registered southern baptist church was registered in the KKK. Throughout history, God through the Holy Spirit has led people that cannot obtain Bibles to hear the Word through missionaries that would eventually get it too them in their tongue...why not here too?
That being said, nothing still nullifies the value of the Word right? |
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| Jack, yes your account is off. You meet with other Christians in the supernatural... |
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Gene |
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November 02, 2007 at 9:20am |
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Heb 10:23-25 [KJV]
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Gene |
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Kathy |
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November 02, 2007 at 9:38am |
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| Patrick, you said: "Add to that that in 1950, 85% of the registered southern baptist church was registered in the KKK." Can you share where you got this statistic? I agree with you that there are far too many armchair Greek "scholars." It is potentially very harmful to portray ourselves as having knowledge we don't really have. |
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That statistic was supposed to say 85% of the Klan was registered southern baptist...sorry and in no way is that a shaft to the southern baptist church. They have openly apologized for their stance. If you want to find a source for that, go to any search engine and type "southern baptist church support KKK" and have a blast. The Southern Baptist webpages (there are many) speak of it as their own terrorist group but they say it repentantly of course. I learned of the actual percentage watching the making of Mississippi Burning...a must see for every American to remind us of the horrors of improper prejudicial judgement. But the KKK was founded in the 1870's after the civil war, dissappeared but remerged in the 1920's growing to 4 million, dissappeared again and re-emerged in the 1960's but not at its former strength and was crushed by the civil rights movement.
It remained in the shadows until David Duke, the "pride" of Louisiana brought it back to our memory and still remains in small groups...nazis are still around too. God's uniqueness given to mankind was a demonstration of His artistry and creativity and we have repeatedly in history used it too oppress. God forgive us and the church is neck deep in guilt.
The comment, so you will know, was meant to illustrate the fact that though during those times church attendance soared, growth in the Spirit was numb...and it was. And our country is up to its neck reaping what was sowed those years
Gene, excellent verse, thanks for stopping in
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I also want to stress that studying to show yourself approved an rightly dividing is Biblical and important, and using greek and aramaic is good for personal referrence, but part of rightly dividing and being approved is bouncing what you feel or question off of someone of report, and not of necessarily the same view point...it is necessary to find out if their are conflicting viewpoints and why they exist...to consider the life of the person and the fruit of the person who would disagree and the history behind what you feel is wrong.
The Bible says that we are NOT to seek new revelation (please keep that in context to what I am saying), that there is nothing new under the sun. Many people do not obey Paul's command not to chase "endless geneologies that end up in nothing but dispute. |
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| Gene wrote:
"I completely support your position regarding hitting the Greek. If we can't trust the Holy Spirit to guide the people who translated from Hebrew and Greek into English, then how we can say that we trust the Holy Spirit's work in scripture at all?"
Gene, that's almost the same as saying "If we can't trust the Holy Spirit to guide our pastors to tell us the right thing, then how can we trust the Holy Spirit for anything?" Obviously such an attitude can be quite dangerous.
Translators are human and humans make mistakes - in fact MANY mistakes, but God had provided ample means for anyone who cares and can read to get to the bottom of things as there are many scholarly concordances out there. To say you must study with a professor or scholar just isn't good advice. Every translator brings his/her biases to the table, 'tis unavoidable.
I think it would behove every believer to obtain good reputable Greek/Hebrew concordances and go for it. It really can be an eye opening experience. Look at the words, the root words etc. It's AWESOME!
- byron
P.S. I would advise waiting to read 'commentaries' until AFTER reading a passage without bias. Commentaries generally = "Let ME explain to you what this means". Give the Holy Spirit/original language a shot at it first :-) The opinions of man are as varied as the stars in the sky.
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Zan, I would have to say that is a balanced approach, but in regard to your response to Gene, you said:
To say you must study with a professor or scholar just isn't good advice. Every translator brings his/her biases to the table, 'tis unavoidable
That is not entirely accurate..what differentiates a greek scholar from a novice is the ability to be as unbiased as possible...that is why it took over 27 years to finish the last translations...the desire to rule out all opinion and be as accurate as possible. To listen to a novice...that is dangerous...to listen to an expert...that is wisdom.
A person who has not been schooled in the greek language simply cannot make real interpretations.
You said: I think it would behove every believer to obtain good reputable Greek/Hebrew concordances and go for it. It really can be an eye opening experience. Look at the words, the root words etc. It's AWESOME!
I agree that everyone should get a concordance and look into the words...but that also can be dangerous. Since I have been away from mychurch for some time, in returning I am amazed and very troubled about the huge number of alternate gospels being preached here.
And the preachers of such are validating their "new revelations" using greek "translations" that are horribly innaccurate. That is the motivation of this blog. Not to pursuade other Christians from broadening their ability to study God's Word...but from following those who are rewriting it.
You said: I would advise waiting to read 'commentaries' until AFTER reading a passage without bias.
I think that is wise counsel
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| Alternate gospels? Which gospels are you referring to?
- byron |
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Kimmy |
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November 04, 2007 at 10:03pm |
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| LOL! You speak the truth! I will not add to anything you've said, because you said a mouth full. ;) |
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Look around, you will find them...sinless perfection...we are in the milleniume...there are some who redifine the word to say what they wish b/c their relationship, as they call it, with Jesus and other Christians is in conflict with the word. There are some who feel there is no hell...and the list goes on. All of them have Biblical reasoning for their whatever...and it is all a walking contradiction...but...
Alternate Gospel is the phrase Paul used to warn us against those who preach a doctrine in opposition to what they were preaching |
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Wow.....me thinks there is much here to take to prayer....the Living Word!!!
Isn't it interesting that the saints of old, including Paul who we all love to quote, didn't have the bible....where did their revelations come from? Where did they go to stay grounded? Isn't it interesting that the Lord the author and finisher of our faith never "wrote?" yet the bible tells us that there are not enough books to hold all that he said and did. Isn't is interesting that Jesus often times went off to be alone...for great periods of time? These are just thoughts I have had..
What you fellas have accomplished here our Jewish brothers and sisters would call a midrash....and it's really one way of knowing that we are a body....and are many parts.
Back in the 90's a prophet I heard speak once said."don't ever think you have all the truth....or that you can never be wrong, and sometimes when you disagree about something you should fast and pray and get before the Lord.(and by all means...take your bibles)
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Hey Potter, thanks for the remark...but think of this. Yes, the first disciples didn't havethe written New Testament, but they walked with Jesus...and they wrote it. Paul didn't have the New Testament but he was trained in Jesus for 3 years. The 40 days that Jesus spent with the disciples after His ressurection He spent showing them all things. Paul, John, and Peter make reference to their writings as the epistels or gospels. They were able to weigh the things of the Spirit against what Jesus Himself taught them in the physical. The only physical manifestation we have of Jesus is the Bible...and that is the Truth. Any revelation we find in the Spirit must be weighed against that to be sure we are hearing correctly if at all.
I think what you say, considering what I responded with, however, is right on. All I am trying to say in all of this is that we need to stop trying to rewrite the Bible and let it rewrite us. Anyone can manipulate the Word. Truth begins with an unbiased approach.
The "greek interpreters" that I keep running into are not that at all and are fooling themselves and others.
You said
Back in the 90's a prophet I heard speak once said."don't ever think you have all the truth....or that you can never be wrong, and sometimes when you disagree about something you should fast and pray and get before the Lord.(and by all means...take your bibles)
That is good. |
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| Patrick Hazard wrote: "Anyone can manipulate the Word. Truth begins with an unbiased approach". How true. It's amazing how almost any point of view can be supported if you twist scripture enough! I do think that mainstream theology is still heavily biased in many ways, a lot of 'dark-age' concepts still prevail.
- byron |
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Paul |
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November 13, 2007 at 9:09pm |
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Unfortunately this idea of being able to gain a more complete understanding of God beyond what is written in the Word is not a new fascinating revelation to an alcoholic living under a bridge but is rather a farely old heresy. Montanists were a sect founded by Montanus, Maximilla, and Prisca who claimed to be a prophet and prophetesses respectively. They found the sect in Phrygia, located in the region of what is now Turkey. They taught that the Holy Spirit spoke through them beyond what is taught in scripture. In fact they claimed that the Holy Spirit not only spoke more through them than Christ but spoke even more profoundly! Much of their prophesying included speaking in ecstatic tongues and then claiming to be possessed by God who spoke through them. Their messages were not "Thus sayeth the Lord" but were "I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete (comforter, Holy Spirit)". Jerome wrote of the Montanist doctrine in 384 that they were Sabellian in their idea of the trinity, as forbidding second marriage, as observing 3 Lents as if 3 Saviors had died, and they say that God not being able to save the world by Moses and the Prophets took flesh of the Virgin Mary and preached and died for us however this 2nd method did not work and thus the Holy Spirit descended upon Montanus, Maxilla, and Prisca to accomplish a third method of salvation. Sabellianism denies the doctrine of the trinity but claim that the different manifestations of God in the Bible are of Him changing form, kind of like a quick change artist and that God is not 3 in 1. Sadly church history teaches us that the church in Thyatira of which one of the letters spoken to John by Christ in Revelations was intended for fell to the Montanist heresy. In the letter to Thyatira, Jesus was rebuking the church for tolerating the teachings of another false prophetess alluded to as Jezebel (I Kings16). Church history is litered with arising heretical sects that have claimed to receive a revelation of God that goes beyond what is written plainly in scripture. We are to study the Bible as deeply and devoted as possible, yet to begin to think that there are things God wants us to know about Him that are not written in the Word and that He will reveal to us through the Holy Spirit is to follow down the same road leading to the fires of Hell that Montanus walked. |
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Paul |
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November 13, 2007 at 10:14pm |
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Jack Henne wrote: The bible is not an owners manual and trying to apply it to our lives reeks of salvation by works. I agree with your statement of simply trying to apply the Bible as an owners manual is not good in and of itself...there must be MORE than that. However we are instructed by James, the brother of Jude and half-brother of our Lord Jesus Christ to be doers and not merely hearers of the Word, "Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." James 1:21-25 Even further, James makes a startling proclamation about the evidence of true faith in person is by their works, this is reminiscent of how our Lord taught on the vine not bearing fruit being pruned off (John 15:1-10) "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.'And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:14-26 In Jude's, the half-brother of our Lord, short yet strong and blistering epistle warning of false teachers writes about these people who claim to be followers of Christ yet are dead and fruitless, "These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm— shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted— twice dead." Jude 1:12 Finally, in contrast, in Christ's letter to the church at Ephesus in Revelations, he begins by commending them for having works, "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary." Revelation 2:2-3 Yet then he condemns them for doing these works out of obligation and not doing the works out of their love for Him, "Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent." Revelation 2:4--5 So what do we gather? Salvation is by an undying faith and ferverent love for the risen One and Only Son of God and that we are saved through Christ crucified who paid a ransom not unto Satan, as some believe, but to satisfy God's justice and wrath against sin. Furthermore you will know the saved by their works. You cannot be truly saved and not bear fruit. |
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Class!!! Atten...shun!!! Captain Rogers on deck!!!
Outstanding Paul, and wrapped up very well. The last paragraph perfectly pulls everything together. Faith must yield works, or it is not faith, just empty religion. Works must root from love (of Jesus) or they reek of self gratification and ...empty religion.
As far as the 1st entry, right on. I have met many-a-preacher when out and about who seem dedicated to proving their knowledge of God in order to keep from facing their dilema. The essence of this blog is that, we seem more motivated to interpret scripture in our favor than to apply the scripture to our lives. Peter said:
2Pe 1:19-21 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts, knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation. For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.
Not to twist what Peter was saying at all but rather applying the fact that since "all scripture is God-breathed" it can be grouped in here where Peter is saying that it is not subject to private interpretation. The gospels and epistels were not written to confuse people, they were written clearly and plainly so they could be followed. We have no business trying to "go deeper" into something that we can't even make the cut on the surface. And to "go deeper" is not in reference to one's relationship with God or in Bible study but in "interpretation"
You are my hero
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| Sorry I missed this dialog...nothing to add at this point, but I will say I am in the same camp as Patrick on tthis one...I am referring to his original post... |
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Lourdes |
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November 24, 2007 at 4:13pm |
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| WOW, awesome blog, awesome comments and by the way... be proud of your webyouthpastor's title. There is nothing wrong with letting people know the kind of "Servant Leader" you are ;-) |
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Thanks for popping in Voice. Any thoughts of yours are always welcome.
Thankyou Lourdes, I agree whole-heartedly. Webyouthpastor was a means for my youth to easily find me...and to let anyone wandering by my site to know what I am here for. That apparantly is not understood by some. |
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