dlazarus
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||November 01, 2007 at 4:32pm|email it|842 reads
 

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Pastor Anthony
November 02, 2007 at 1:04pm

Before I give my comment to the question Why Don’t People Tithe, let me first say that not tithing to God at your local church is deplorable behavior for any believer. I do however want to press this issue a little further. I think that the underlying question that must be asked on is “Why don’t people respond obediently to the Word of God?” A more appropriate question to make it more personal is “Why don’t I respond obediently to the Word of God?”

I think that any time we start our questions with “Why don’t People...” and not “Why don’t I...” we miss the power of personal accountability. One of the fundamental principles that has built the MEETING Place is the principle of personal accountability. It is often said about the MP that we don’t preach a Gospel that says “Lord change my situation.” The Gospel we preach weighs heavily on Christ work to change us personally, so we can in turn change our situation.

On Sunday Pastor preached an extremely convicting and sobering word involving our own personal responsibility to the calls God has placed on our lives. Tithing is one facet of walking responsibly in one’s call. However, it is not the only aspect neither is it the ultimate one. I was convicted by the message in such a way that it challenged me to ask “Why am I not seeing men as ministry” and “Why am I not honest when asked what do I see” and “Why am I not giving 100% of myself to the Lord and this my Father’s business?”

Christ said during his sermon on the mount, “How can you say to your brother, “Let me pull the speck out of your eye”; and behold there is a plank in your own eye.”(Matt 7:4) I need a second touch to help me with my vision before I can help some one else with theirs. Let’s take time to reflect on this question “ Why don’t I give my 100%?”

Cathy
November 05, 2007 at 2:59pm
Funny I should see this blog today.  Pastor Mark spoke of tithing ( just a little ) yesterday.  I work for my church.  I really do not think folks understand that it takes money to keep the lights on, feed the homeless, help the benevolence cases, send bibles to the Ukraine etc....etc....

Where in the world to people think the money comes from when it is announced that we have sent folks to Mississippi to help Katrina victims, helped two children from overseas receive heart transplants, fed 30 people last Friday night at the soup kitchen?
Robin
November 05, 2007 at 4:42pm

I agree that it is a trust issue, but it is more than that.  The Bible says "Where your treasure is there your heart will also." If we don't tithe, "our treasure" is not plaved on God. He calls us to be obedient. So it is also an obedience issue. We expect our children to obey, in my case the first time, so why don't we.

Our world has become very selfcentered and "look out for #1 mentallity" all this adds to the lack of committment.

Imagine what the Body of Christ could do if ALL were tithers! WOW!

dlazarus
November 05, 2007 at 11:33pm
I appreciate the responses so far and the information is helpful. It equips us as believers to pray for and minister to those around us.

Money is such a hot topic in our society and it's viewed through the self centered lens that Robin wrote about. Believers should engage in discussions like these (and those on other issues) to continue to strengthen each other in our ability to spread the good news of Jesus.
MichaelATL43
November 14, 2007 at 11:24am

Here's something to consider:

Paul tells us a few times in the book of Romans that "The law gives sin it's power"

Some people are still under the impression that the law was given to help people live holier. But in fact, it was just the opposite. The law was given to prove to people that they can never live up to God's standards in their own strenght. They need a savior. Again, the law gave power to sin. So if the law gives power to sin then being free from the law gives us freedom from sin, agree?

Tithing is part of the Levitical Law. We are no longer bound to thatr law. Nowhere in the New Testament are we commanded to give 10% of our income. Yes, we're told that we should give, and it should be according to what we have been given. I believe that our giving should be sacrificial. We should give joyfully.

Look at 2 Corinthians 8:12
Whatever you give is acceptable if you give it eagerly. And give according to what you have, not what you don’t have.

There are many other passages that talk about the New Testament principles of giving. I am not about "not giving". But here's my thought:

If the Law gives power to sin, then being under the law of tithing gives power to not giving. If people are not giving it is because they are being taugh that it is mandatory to do so. The Law gives sin it's power.

Being free from the law of tithing therefore frees us to give from our hearts and not out of obligatoin, which is what God really requires anyway.

You wanna see more people giving more, take the pressure off. The law gives sin it's power!

dlazarus
November 15, 2007 at 10:12am
If I believed the practice of tithing was Old Testament law, then not tithing would be appropriate for me; so thanks for the post b/c it reminded me that there are many who believe this to be the case.

Believing tithing to be Old Testament law in a church that teaches the opposite is problematic though. I think I would have to ask some questions of the church leadership until I either had to leave because the teaching of the church was in conflict with the Word of God and the dispensation of grace, or allow the Holy Spirit (through the answers to my questions) to change my belief about tithing.

We are in agreement on the law vs. grace issue. However tithing predates the law by centuries.

The law was implemented during the days of Moses, while tithing was first instituted with Abraham (the father of faith whose faith we are repeatedly instructed to emulate). So it could be reasonably said that if Abraham tithed by faith (before and without obligation to the law), then so should we after the law.

This account of Abraham instituting the tithe to the high priest (Melchizedek in this case) is outlined in the New Testament in Hebrews 7 where Melchizedek is said to be an Old Testament foreshadowing of Jesus Christ.

Jesus himself in Matthew 23:23 admonishes His listeners to practice the weightier matters of the law (justice, mercy and faithfulness) "without neglecting the former" (speaking specifically of tithing).

I'm sure there are more scriptural supports for tithing that could be found, but from the practical side: For the first 7 years of its existence my chuch "took the pressure off". Tithing was not taught on. In fact there was no formal offering in the very beginning: there was just a notification that there is a basket in the back and if you desire to give you can. Trust me, the giving was not greater during this time because people were not empowered by the principles, precepts and promises of God regarding their finances.
Deb
November 15, 2007 at 12:34pm
I believe tithing to be a necessary part of our walk as Christians.  It is only natural to give back to God from the blessings He has given to us.  Many people don't feel that way though.  They look at the church as just another organization asking for money.  If you would be interested in reading it, I wrote a blog a while back on tithing Just Another Blog About Tithing
MichaelATL43
November 15, 2007 at 11:09pm
You know, when I posted the last line to my comment above,

"You wanna see more people giving more, take the pressure off. The law gives sin it's power!"

As soon as I posted that something stirred in my spirit. If you'll notice, I started off and intended my comment to be posed more of a question than my standpoint. It was offered more as a suggestion in order to get feedback. The last line just didn't sound right and I knew it as soon as I pressed "enter"

And I am glad that I came back to see the follow-up comment. I forgot to check the box that alowed me to see them via email.

I am all about giving. And not just for the promise of a return. I see so many great things happening in the Kingdom that could never be accomplished without generous giving. When I do give I know that the funds I give back are being used much more effectively that what I personally would use them more, in most cases.

And I believe that giving should be a principle that's taught more in the church.  Our church is strong on giving and we are seeing and doing great things as a result.

I definately need to study more in this area.

Thanks for the follow-up.



dlazarus
November 15, 2007 at 11:26pm

MichaelAtl43,

Since reading your initial post, I've read and reread the 8th chapter of 2 Corinthians, because it does present a problem when trying to reconcile it with scriptural references (both Old and New Testament) that speak specifically about tithing.

So it looks like we'll both be studying some more.

believer
November 20, 2007 at 10:39am

The New Testament shows Pharisees tithing, not income or money, but what they OWNED and GREW. [Luke 18:12, Matthew 23:23 showing tithing was PROFIT and AGRARIAN based.] Christ denounced giving to God while ignoring responsibilities. [Mark 12:41-44, Mark 7:10-13, Matthew 22:21, 17:25-27] Romans 13:7-8 says to owe no man anything but love.Some mandated tithing teachers use scriptures that state one is to BRING the tithe rather than GIVE the tithe to prove that tithing is mandatory. As we shall soon see, law tithing was mandatory, but the scriptures that mention PRE-LAW tithing say the tithe was GIVEN. Tithing was NOT money or income based; it was LAND based. If two farmers had crops of 10 carrots each, they would both be obligated to tithe one carrot. Under the agrarian tithing system it didn't matter If one sold the other 9 carrots for $5 and the other sold his remaining 9 carrots for $10. The tithe of the harvest was unrelated to the income of the harvest. Plain and simple - THE TITHE WAS NOT 10% OF INCOME, it was 10% of the harvest. The Jews under the law were NOT obligated to give 10% of their incomes! This simple fact alone is enough to destroy the false doctrine that God DEMANDS you pay 10% of your income or be cursed.

Money was rarely, if ever, the thing tithed in the Bible. [Nehemiah 13:10-13] To be truly biblical, tithing was NOT based on your income or money AT ALL! [Deuteronomy 14:22-23, 18:1-5, 26:12, Nehemiah 10:38-39, 12:44, Leviticus 27:30-33, Joshua 13:14] Pre-law tithing was voluntary and profit based and law tithing was mandated and PRODUCTION based [i.e. agrarian]. Agrarian means "of the land," and agrarian tithing was based on what you were able to PRODUCE from the land, plants or livestock. God commanded people bring a tenth of what they produced from the land BEFORE they sold it. So Tithing was NOT based on the income of a given harvest. In fact, it was against the law to sell the tithe. One was to bring the PRODUCT, not what the product was worth. [Leviticus. 27:28] There are many references to tithing the "increase" [Example: Deuteronomy 14:22 using the Hebrew tbuw'ah] which literally means fruit or produce and in the tithing verses EATING the tithe is often referred to. Note in Nehemiah 13:10, the Levites went to THE FIELD to replace missing tithes. During the time of agrarian law tithing bartering was common but there were also MONEY SYSTEMS in place. [Genesis 23: 15-16 and 42:25, Jeremiah 32:9-11, Deuteronomy 14:25 and Malachi 3:5] Yet the tithe remained agrarian [land based].

According to the Douglas / Tenney NIV Bible Dictionary Leviticus. 27:31 makes clear a penalty of 20% of the tithe was exacted from one who redeemed his tithes and refused to use the money to pay for a substitute. Again, this shows the tithe was not income or money based.

God gave Israel's tithes to the Levites as an inheritance in lieu of land. [Joshua 13:14, Deuteronomy 10:6-9, 18:1-5, Numbers 18:21, 24] The Levites gave tithes and offerings out of the tithes to the priests [Nehemiah 10:38, Numbers 18], but they apparently didn't have to tithe the income from the sale of inherited property. [Deuteronomy 18:6-8] The Levites and priests were dependent on tithes for FOOD. God's house was a STOREHOUSE and DISTRIBUTION POINT for the sacrifices, Levites, priests and those in need. [Malachi 4:10 "Bring all the tithes into the STOREHOUSE that there may be FOOD in My House. [Nehemiah 13:10-13, 1 Samuel 8:15, 17, 2 Chronicles 31:11, Deuteronomy 12:6-7, 17-19, 14:22 - 23] There was one exception for converting a tithe into money that was allowed early in the law. According to many scholars, this exception was abolished later. Deuteronomy 14:24-27 gives this early exception proving money systems were in place without tithing being based on money. In this early exception one could sell the tithe given specific circumstances and spend the money on whatever one desired provided one shared what one bought with the local Levite. Also, these verses make clear, "if the distance was too long for you to CARRY YOUR TITHE" proving the tithe was NOT money based. The New Testament shows Pharisees tithing, not income or money, but what they OWNED and GREW. [Luke 18:12, Matthew 23:23 showing tithing was PROFIT and AGRARIAN based.] Law tithing was based on an agrarian [land] system, theocratic government and an agricultural society. Land was officially owned by God and "deeded" by the church with the Levites getting Israel's tithes instead of land. [Leviticus 25:23-24] This system is no longer in existence and that is why most Jews don't tithe any more. An argument could be made that a form of the agrarian system is still in place with the Government replacing the church. Now the Government "owns" the land and deeds it mandating real estate taxes. Everyone in America pays this "tithe" directly or indirectly to the Government via property taxes, rents, excise taxes, sewer fees etc. The timing of obligatory tithing corresponds to the initial formation of the Jewish theocratic church/state government via the Mosaic Law, deeding of land by the church, the Levitical priesthood and the first Jewish temple - the Tent of Meeting. It is an important distinction that in a theocracy the church IS the government with all the responsibilities of government. Today the church does not deed land, run a court system, legislate and govern, maintain and run armed forces, police, tax, distribute public resources, act as the Board of Health, Welfare Department, Pension Board etc., and do all the other responsibilities of government. The theocratic Jewish church/state government did all this and more under the law. Here in the United States, the church and Government are SEPARATE and well over 10% of income is paid by the overwhelming majority for governmental functions no longer handled by the church. 25-35% of American's wages goes to a variety of causes, many if not most of which used to be handled by the church in a theocratic government. Today, pay deductions and other taxes also help cover tax exemptions for non-profits including churches.

Samuel had warned God's people that if they left the theocratic form of Government tithes would be exacted from the people causing them to cry out because of government demands. [1 Samuel 8: 2-22] History is replete with examples of excessive government demands and most Americans are triple "tithing" their income already for governmental functions formerly handled by the church in a Theocracy.

Under the agrarian tithing system the church had mandates regarding the handling and distribution of tithes. These mandates are no longer in effect.

The church under agrarian law tithing had specific social, communal responsibilities as a matter of law such as a percentage being used to meet needs of the poor. [Deuteronomy 14:28-29, 2 Chronicles 31:14-15, Nehemiah 13:12-13] The church also, in some cases, even gave pensions to certain members. [2 Chronicles 31:16-18] The communal use and distribution of tithes was for the Levites, priests, stranger, sojourner, fatherless and widows. [Deuteronomy. 26: 12 and 14:29] There are no such mandates for communal tithe distribution in the church today. Any Christian church that I have seen teach what is incorrectly called biblical tithing as law is not practicing tithing with the required oaths [Deuteronomy. 26: 12-15], communal responsibilities and resource distribution that came with the agrarian tithing system. Further evidence of the weight given by the early Church regarding the communal responsibilities and distribution of resources by the Church was evidenced in the Book of Acts. In the New Testament Church people sold what they had and gave the proceeds to the Church so no one had need of anything. [Acts 4: 34-35] It is important to note that under the law communal responsibilities were mandatory but this New Testament giving was VOLUNTARY and tithing was never mentioned. [Acts 4:34-35 and 5:4] Peter told Ananias that after his land was sold the money was at HIS disposal and under his control. [Acts 5:4] Peter never said, "You were only obliged to bring the tithe." Paul also encouraged this resource distribution system in 2 Corinthians 8: 13-15 and Romans 12:13. The Old and New Testament purpose for wealth was not to be rich or impress people but to do the work of God and share with those in need. [Deuteronomy 15, Leviticus 25, Matthew 19:21, Ephesians 4:28] Tithing as taught today is modified and NOT the same as Biblical tithing.

God gave the tithes to the Levites as an inheritance in return for their service and to compensate them for having no personal inheritance of land. The Levites gave tithes to the Priests from the tithes they received. Christianity has no agrarian system, no Levites and every Christian is now a priest, the temple and co-workers with Christ. [2 Peter 2:5 & 9, Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6] Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property:(1) one tithe for the Levites; (2) one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and(3) one for the poor of the land. [Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 14]Given the above, it is clear that any church mandating tithes should be spending AT LEAST ONE THIRD of their income on the poor since that is what was required under mandated law tithing. How many churches come close to this? I know of none. Yet it is not uncommon for some ministers to call their parishioners thieves if they don't tithe. It's all of the law or none of it.

The only two pre-law examples of tithing in Genesis were voluntary, non-routine and profit [ownership] based. Biblical law tithing was agrarian [land] based. Neither was income or money based as is usually taught today. People should not be "creatively constructing" doctrine, teaching that biblical tithing is giving 10% of their gross or net income, picking and choosing what part of the tithing law they will follow, mandating amounts or mixing law with Grace. The bible is clear on what pre and post law tithing was and how it was to be handled. A tithe is a tenth, but a tenth of what and how? If one wants to teach a tithe is 10% of gross or net income do NOT call it biblical tithing. It is YOUR plan for giving, NOT the biblical agrarian or pre-law plan. Since it is YOUR plan, be extra careful about putting stumbling blocks into people's path by purporting that your plan is God's law resulting in judgement if not followed.

  Tithing CAN'T be practiced as it was in biblical times because the law, the agrarian system, the agricultural system, sacrifices, debt cancellation, Year of Jubilee and other interrelated factors are all abolished. Plus, today's churches have no "law" in place requiring them to fulfill the communal responsibilities and resource distribution of the agrarian law based tithing system.

  Therefore, it would probably be best to do away with the word "tithing" entirely in this age of Grace to avoid the mixing of law and Grace that is common today. However, that may be difficult given the "tithemania" that has swept the land. Many will believe a "giving plan" will assist contributions and help people decide what is appropriate to give and we will discuss that shortly.  Control, greed or plain ignorance is the motivation behind many of today's "mandated tithing" messages. The New Testament is clear on this; we are commanded to give. To be blessed we are to give generously, cheerfully, willingly, not out of necessity, according to our means, in faith, with love and in the right spirit. The New Testament is NOT at all clear on amounts and percentages. Paul does NOT say to give according to a percentage and he was certainly familiar with tithing. [1 Corinthians 16:2] Several times Paul compares voluntary giving to fruit and burnt offerings. Paul's use of Old Testament tithing terminology [i.e. fruit and burnt offerings] without the mention of tithing could NOT have been an oversight given Paul's Jewish background. [Philippians 4:17-18, Romans 15:26-28] The Bible teaches to give "as God has prospered us," and "according to our ability and means." [2 Corinthians 8: 11, 2 Corinthians 9: 5-13, Acts 11:29] The word for "means" is the Greek signifying possession and ownership. That means what you are giving is fully yours, not credit or lien based.

Christ taught one man to "sell all that he had and give to the poor." Yet, Christ was pleased with another that gave only half of what he had to the poor while making restitution for his thievery. [Mark 10:21, Luke 19: 1-10] Clearly, specific amounts are unimportant to God.  The story of the Widow's mite makes crystal clear it is the relationship to money, the attitude of the giver and the sacrifice made that is important. Christ said the Widow gave MORE than the rich, despite the rich's large offerings. [Mark 12:41-44] Clearly Christ focused on the sacrifice made, NOT the amounts given. Mandated tithing teachers appear clueless to the fact that a wealthy person could tithe without feeling any sacrifice whatsoever due to their income level. For the wealthy to feel the same sacrifice as a poor person giving 10% of their income, a wealthy person would have to give perhaps 90% or more of their income. The Bible is filled with warnings against oppressing the poor. The convoluted mandated income based tithing doctrine around today is clearly NOT something God would author since it is oppressive to the poor.

dlazarus
November 20, 2007 at 12:29pm
For the sake of thoroughness, if we want to look at the origins and sigificance of the tithe, we have to look at it through more than narrow religious lenses that we can easily blur with changes in dispensations and covenants. We'll deal with that too, but let's broaden the argument for a minute.

Tithing was a secular practice in cultures other than the Old Testament Jewish culture. It was a requirement (tax if you will) of citizens to give to the king for a few reasons:

1. To acknowledge his kingship
2. To acknowledge his ultimate ownership of the land from which they reaped the harvest
3. To acknowledge his protection and provision for them being able to reap the harvest

When God institutes this principle with the Old Testament Jews, their obedience acknowledges the same things. This is one reason the declarations of wrath for not tithing were/are so harsh ... b/c it signifies a refusal to acknowledge those things.

Since God is still King according to scripture, and still owns the earth and all in it according to scripture, and still provides and protects according to scripture, I don't see how the acknowledgement of those truths through the tithe should cease in the New Covenant.

Which brings me to the dispensation challenges: What I think we often miss about the change in the covenant from Old to New is that the primary change comes in how we are to have right relationship with God. When Jesus says that he has not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, He's saying that our efforts to be right before God by upholding the law are fruitless and He will provide the way for us to have right relationship with God. All we have to do is have faith in Him and the relationship is restored. Nowhere does He say throw at all of the principles and practices of the law. But upholding them is not enough to save your soul.

In other words, you still shouldn't kill, steal, covet your neighbor's wife (no one ever argues that we don't have to live by those "Old Testament laws"), but that's not the way to salvation. Salvation is only found by faith in Jesus Christ, but upholding his statutes are a part of the responsibility that comes along with the rights that salvation and relationship give you.

Dispensationalism would tell us that certain principles of God only applied to certain times. Knowing that God is the same yesterday, today and forever tells us that as dispensations change, methods of applying principles and customs and forms of worship may change, but the principles remain.

So while I don't need to bring a bullock or ram to be sacrificed for the atonement of my sins, I recognize that the principle of shed blood for sin remission wasn't abolished. There has been an eternal sacrifice made and His blood is enough. And while I don't grow my own corn and grain b/c I'm not in an agrarian culture, what I reap when I put my hand to plow is revenue. And while the government (as you so accurately point out) takes their share for the services they provide me as a citizen of the country, I believe myself to be a citizen of another kingdom as well. And the King does more for me than the government ever could. So the notion that I now don't have to tithe b/c the government now provides the services that the church, the body and bride of Christ once did, is laughable at best and anathema at worst.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it tell us to stop upholding the commandments of God. The same Paul we quote repeatedly admonished New Testament believers to continue in the doctrine they'd been taught through the Holy Scriptures. Since the letters he was writing would become most of the not yet in existence New Testament, he must have been referring to the Old Testament scriptures we're so quick to dismiss as Old Covenant, outdated and irrelevant.

Every Old Testament principle or practice doesn't have to be repeated in the New Testament to be valid. Some are addressed specifically (mostly ceremonial - necessity of animals in worship, or national - stoning adulterers, etc) and done away with. But it would be an irresponsible treatment of scripture to assume that all the rest is done away with as well.

And to say that God implementing the tithe now would be oppressive to the poor would mean He was oppressive to the poor Jews in the Old Testament when He did it ... right?
believer
November 20, 2007 at 12:38pm
they were not money tithes in the old testament find them and show me them as money tithes. I provided scripture can you do so as well please?   The tithes were of Agrarian mold and the poor were given to not taken from as referenced by my scripture passages, so quote me scripture where it was not so.  I have much more if you want it.
dlazarus
November 20, 2007 at 12:53pm
That argument's a red herring. It's like asking me to show you in scripture where preachers drove cars to get to church. That wasn't the order of the day in their society. The tithe was agrarian b/c the society was agrarian. If it was implemented in a nation of fishermen, they would have brought 10% of their fish (since that's their harvest). Bi-weekly when we reap a harvest in our society, it's in the form of money. Again, different methodology and material, same principle.

And if you're saying the poor Jews who had no harvest were not required to bring a tithe of the harvest they didn't have, I think it goes without saying that contemporary Christians who reap no harvest are not required to tithe off of the harvest they didn't reap as well.
believer
November 20, 2007 at 1:00pm
  You cannot arbitrarily change historical Israel The land was owned by the church and the tithe was a tax on the use of the land.  Any relgious studies student knows that.   You cannot say that money was the prime tithe because as I stated an extra 10 percent was required of those who gave cash.  Its a scriptural fact.
believer
November 20, 2007 at 1:03pm
You cannot change God's commandments to say He meant 10 percent now but only stated that it was the extra 20 percent cash value back then lol.
believer
November 20, 2007 at 1:07pm
my 12:00 P.M. post should state 20 percent not 10 .
believer
November 20, 2007 at 1:10pm
 

Christ died "once for all." The NEED for the Ceremonial system of animal sacrifices, the human priesthood, and tithing were made void by Christ’s death on the cross; we as Christians live in the historic period after the Cross.

To continue any of the practices identified above, would deny the adequacy of Christ’s death, Christ’s sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

To deny Christ’s sacrifice, equals eternal death. Acts 4:12.

Even if We choose to deny the adequacy of Christ’s death by practicing any element of the earthly sacrificial system, as a matter of consistency, we would be obligated to follow all of the Ceremonial Law, Lev. 27: 28-33.

Only Levites could accept tithes. Paul was not a Levite; he could not legally accept tithes.

Only farmers were commanded to tithe (miners, fishermen, lumbermen, and day-laborers were not mentioned.)

Tithe was to be accepted on crops and herds.

Farmers with fewer than ten animals did not tithe (only the tenth was tithed.)

Every third and sixth year of the sabbatical cycle, a part of the tithe went to the homeless, the widows, and orphans (Deut 14: 22-29.) This provided for the poor you spoke of. Israelites were discouraged from paying tithe in money instead of produce. To pay tithe in money, the farmer had to add 20% (Lev. 27:31.)Do you pay 20 percent?

Priests were mediators; Christ, not pastors, is our Mediator, Heb. 9:24.

After the Cross, Christ’s teachings of caring for the needy and spreading the good news, is to be supported by free-will gifts, Acts 18: 1-3; 2 Thess. 3:6-13; Matt. 25: 34-36. We can choose to contribute just as much or even more using free-will giving!

Therefore, I will not deny Christ’s sacrifice and accept tithe, a requirement of the Ceremonial Law, that was eradicated by Christ’s death.

A PRAYER: May the Holy Spirit guide you in deciding for truth.1 Sam. 15:22.

believer
November 20, 2007 at 1:19pm
Your arguement that today we can arbitrarily substitute money for crops is voided by God's own words in (Lev. 27:31).  He placed in plain text a money substitute and if you take the stance of tithes being a requirement then you must also take the stance (barring a later scriptural revelation) that he wants you to offer the 20 percent penalty as well.
dlazarus
November 20, 2007 at 1:26pm
The ceremonial practice being replaced in terms of animal sacrifices was specifically b/c the sacrifice of the animal (shedding of blood) was for the remission of sins, otherwise the worshipper could not stand in the presence of God. Thus when Jesus' blood was shed, that practice was fulfilled once and for all, and through Him we can stand just before God.

The tithe never had the intent of sin remission and was in practice before the ceremonial laws of the Levites, the temple and the nation of Israel.

And the fact that the Levites received the tithes and offerings in the Old Testament didn't stop the New Testament believers from laying their offerings at the apostles' (who weren't Levites) feet. It didn't stop Abraham from tithing before the establishment of the law or Levites. Even Paul (who was not a Levite) went around and collected people's offerings.

Thanks for the Leviticus 27 reference. I came across that scripture once and couldn't find it anymore. To answer the question it referenced, if my tithe is grain and I sell the grain instead of bringing it into the storehouse as my tithe, then yes I should have to add the 20% to it. Since my tithe is money (again since I'm not in an agrarian society) and I use that money for some other purpose instead of tithes, I would have to bring in that amount PLUS 20% of it (not a total of 20% of the harvest). That came up in a discussion I was having probably 3 or 4 years ago and I couldn't find that passage. Thanks a lot.
believer
November 20, 2007 at 1:55pm
  Offerings are freely given by definition not a tithe(tax).  This makes your point mute,  as Paul being formally Jewish would no the difference and not make the "mistake" of saying offerings not tithes.
  You cannot say that offerings get to be arbitrarilly changed because if thats true then as societies change they get to change scripture as needed to include abortion, homosexuality, etc.   Even Billy Graham who supported tithes"said they were not mandated as such but the free offerings of a Christian heart."  His organization  Billy Graham Evangelistic Association  teaches that tithes are not required of Christians.  Go to their website.  If, you want the historical first use of the word tithe in the Christian church look it up.  zhere are some refrences accepted by many Christian theological schools:       The Encyclopedia Americana (s.v. "tithe"): "It (tithing) was not practised in the early Christian church but gradually became common (in the Roman Catholic church in western Europe) by the 6th Century. The Council of Tours in 567 and the 2nd Council of Macon in 585 advocated tithing. Made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765 and in England in the 10th Century... The Reformation did not abolish tithing and the practice was continued in the Roman Catholic church and in Protestant countries (until it was) gradually replaced by other forms of taxation. The Roman Catholic church still prescribes tithes in countries where they are sanctioned by law, and some Protestant bodies consider tithes obligatory.       Dictionary of the Apostolic Church: It is admitted universally that the payment of tithes or the tenths of possessions, for sacred purposes did not find a place within the Christian Church during the age covered by the apostles and their immediate successors.      Wycliffe Bible Dictionary of Theology (s.v. "tithe"): The silence of the NT writers, particularly Paul, regarding the present validity of the tithe can be explained only on the ground that the dispensation of grace has no more place for a law of tithing than it has for a law on circumcision     C. I. Scofield - Scofield Reference Bible: 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, "In contrast with the law, which imposed giving as a divine requirement, Christian giving is voluntary, and a test of sincerity and love.    New Bible Commentary, Inter-Varsity Fellowship, p. 222: [Acts 18:1-4] It was regarded as proper for a rabbi to practice a manual occupation so as not to make monetary profit out of his sacred teaching.[1 Thess. 2:9] This policy [working night and day] not only reflected a desire to be financially independent of those among whom they ministered, but it also marked them off from the ordinary religious traffickers of the day, and showed the converts a good example.[2 Cor. 11:8] Paul is really indicating that he did not receive wages at all for preaching the gospel. If what was given him for his support by other churches was to be regarded as ‘earnings,' then he had in effect ‘robbed' them since the service given was not to them but to the Corinthians.[Heb. 7:18] Also, the priesthood was so fundamental to the Old Covenant between God and His people (the whole relationship was constituted in dependence upon its ministry), that any change in the order of priesthood must of necessity imply and involve a change in the whole constitution; i.e. it implies nothing less than an accompanying new, and indeed better, covenant.
believer
November 20, 2007 at 2:08pm

To facilitate a more scripturally orientated debate: tithe references in the Bible.

Genesis 14:17-20 Amos 4:2-6

Genesis 28:20-22 2 Chronicles 31:1-12

Leviticus 27:30-34 Nehemiah 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5, 12

Numbers 18:19-28 Malachi 3:7-10

Deuteronomy 12:1-19 Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42

Deuteronomy 14:22-29 Luke 18:9-14

Deuteronomy 26:12-13 Hebrews 7:1-19

1 Samuel 8:14-17

believer
November 20, 2007 at 2:26pm

The biblical tithe was an ordinance of the Mosaic Law for the use and benefit of national Israel under the Old Covenant. The full tithe was given to the tribe of Levi, first, in exchange for his loss of land inheritance in Israel and, second, because of his servant service to his brother sin the Levitical house of Aaron who alone served as priests. A tenth of the first tithe was, in turn, given by the Levites to the priests who ministered at the altar.

The basic tithe was not to be used for building houses of worship. Since pagan dust defiled, the original tithe consisted solely of the increase of land produce from Gods sanctified land of Israel and from the increase of animals herded on the land of Israel. Although the tithe could be exchanged for its monetary value, the tithe itself never consisted of money! A second (and third) tithe was also given to provide food for festival occasions, and to provide welfare food for widows, fatherless, orphans and needy strangers in Israel.

The Contents of the Tithe

A surprising biblical fact is that the poor did not pay tithes, but, instead, received from the tithe. A separate chapter on the poor discusses this truth. This fact is made especially clear in the gleaning laws and in the purpose of the tithe. Jesus did not tithe, nor did he sin by failing to tithe because he was poor and did not own land or herd animals for his sustenance. The poor were only expected to give free-will offerings to the best of their ability.

It is easy to demonstrate that the contents of every recorded tithe found in the Mosaic Law is only from landowners and herdsmen of the land of Israel. This was a totally unexpected, yet very clear, truth about tithing that Bible study with an exhaustive concordance revealed. Also, strange as it may seem, Scriptural tithing was only intended for a society sustained almost wholly by agricultural crops and animal herds. Biblical society included the following occupations: bakers, candle makers,carpenters, clothing makers, hired farm workers, hired herdsmen, hired household servants, jewelry craftsmen, masons, metal craftsmen, musicians, painters, perfume makers, physicians, sculptors, soldiers, tanners, teachers and tent makers. Yet NONE of these professions or products from these professions are included in any list of tithes or tithing! Why not? These sources provided much of the money for head taxes, temple taxes, tribute to foreign conquerors and, of course, free-will offerings. It is inconceivable to think that God simply

forgot to include them in the many lists of items to be tithed. We must also remember that the Mosaic Law of the fi rstbornwould drive all except the firstborn in a family with four sons off the land within 2-3 generations because the firstborn was to get a double portion of the land inheritance (Deut.21:17). Those with plots of land too small to sustain a family had to sell their portion to their relative with the larger inheritance. Next, they would work as hired hands on their relativesland or move to town and take up a trade. For example ,a 1000 acre plot would be divided by four sons into plots of 400; 200; 200; and

200 in the first generation; 160; 80; 80; and 80 after two generations; 32; 16; 16; and 16 after three generations. Thus, continually sub-dividing the land would keep the land-tithe the same, but would seriously reduce the amount of persons paying land-tithes.

believer
November 20, 2007 at 2:34pm

Tithe Texts Which Reveal Its Limited Contents

Lev. 27:30,32 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’s. It is holy to the LORD.… And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy to the LORD.

Num. 18:27 And this your heave offering shall be reckoned to you, as though it were the grain of the threshing-floor, and as the fullness of the wine-press.

Num. 18:28 Thus you also shall offer a heave offering to the LORD of all your tithes, which you receive of the children of Israel; and you shall give thereof the LORD’s heave offering to Aaron the priest.

Deut 12:17 You may not eat within your gates the tithe of your grain, or of your wine, or of your oil.

Deut. 14:22 You shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed, that the field brings forth year by year.

Deut. 14:23 And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the first offspring of your herds and of your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

Deut. 26:12 When you have made an end of tithing all the tithes of your increase [produce: NIV, RSV] the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled.

2 Chron. 31:5 And as soon as the commandment was circulated, the children of Israel brought in abundance the first fruits of grain, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the fields; and the tithe of all things they brought in abundantly.

2 Chron. 31:6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that lived in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated to the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.7

Neh. 10:37 And that we should bring the first fruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, to the priests ,to the chambers of the house of our God, and the tithes of our ground to the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

Neh. 13:5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where previously they laid the grain offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the grain, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the offerings of the priests.

Mal. 3:10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat [food] in my house.

Matt. 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin.…

believer
November 20, 2007 at 2:47pm
Only those Israelites who earned a livelihood from farming and herding inside Israel were required to tithe under the Mosaic Law. Their increase came from God’s hand. Those whose increase came from their own crafts and skills were not required to tithe products and money. The poor and needy who did not tithe and received from the tithe gave freewill offerings.

One argument to support non-food tithing is that money was not universally available and barter from food must have been used for most transactions. This argument is not biblical. Genesis alone contains "money" in 32 texts and the word occurs 44 times before the tithe is first mentioned in Leviticus 27. The word shekel also appears often from Genesis to Deuteronomy. In fact many centuries before Israel entered Canaan and began tithing food from God’s Holy Land money was an essential everyday item. For example money in the form of silver shekels paid for slaves (Gen 17:12+); land (Gen 23:9+); freedom(Ex 23:11); court fines (Ex 21 all; 22 all); sanctuary dues (Ex 30:12+); vows(Lev 27:3-7); poll taxes (Num 3:47+), alcoholic drinks (Deu 14:26) and marriage dowries (Deu 22:29).According to Genesis 47:15-17 food was only used for barter after money had been spent. Banking and usury laws exist in God’s Word in Leviticus even before tithing. Therefore the argument that money was not prevalent enough for every day use is false. Yet the tithe contents never include money from non-food products and trades.

believer
November 20, 2007 at 3:44pm
Lets dissect your argument that pre mosaic tithing can be used to show how we as modern Christians can be expected to tithe. Genesis 14 is the first mention of tithing in Scripture. It involves Abraham paying tithes to the mysterious Melchizedek. Since this incident in Abraham’s life precedes the Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant by over four centuries, those who teach tithing invariably use verses 18-20 as proof texts. Their position teaches that, since tithing, like marriage and the remainder of the "moral" law actually

preceded the Law, then they are "eternal principles" which were not invalidated when the Mosaic Law was replaced by the New Covenant at Calvary. To many, Melchizedek kept the worship of the true God alive over the centuries from the time of Noah until Abraham arrived in Canaan.

Narrative of Genesis 14

In order to properly understand why tithing was mentioned in this chapter, God presented the incident in an extended detailed narrative because he did not want it to be taken out of its historical context. We must remember that the climax of a narrative is at the end of the story, and not in the middle. Before reading the narrative, it is wise to consider its principle of interpretation. "Narrative in its broadest sense is an account of specific space-time events and participants whose stories are recorded with beginnings middles and ends.… Readers too often project some moral or spiritual truth over a biblical character or event, paying more attention to the moral lesson they see in the narrative than to the story itself. The underlying objection to interpreting the Bible in a moralistic, exemplary fashion for every narrative passage is that it destroys the unity of the message of the Bible."14 In approximately 2000 B. C. four city-state kings from around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers invaded east of the Jordan River towards the southern end of the Dead Sea. Their leader was Chedorlaomer of Elam (v. 1). After traveling between 700-900 miles westward around the fertile crescent (of Mesopotamia),they defeated five small city-kings who ruled within a few miles of each other at the southern end of the Dead Sea (vv. 2-3).After paying tribute for twelve years, these fi ve rebelled (v. 4). The four kings of the east returned. Proceeding south from Damascus, they defeated numerous city kings east, south, and southwest of the Dead Sea until they arrived at En-gedi. This placed them about twenty miles south of Salem. Instead of advancing towards Hebron, Madre, and Salem, they turned back south and fought the fi ve kings (vv. 5-7). Chedorlaomer was again victorious. He took Abraham’s nephew, Lot, all his goods, all the goods and food of Sodom and Gomorrah and started back home (probably retracing the route east) (vv. 8-12). At that time Abraham (Abram) lived near Hebron which is located approximately midway between Salem and Sodom (vv. 13, 24). When Abraham heard that Lot had been taken captive, he took 318 trained servants and confederated Aconites and pursued the enemy (vv. 13-14, 24). Using a night attack, he defeated the enemy forces, rescued Lot, and retrieved all of the captives and goods which had been taken from the area of Sodom and Gomorrah (vv. 15-16). On his return journey, Abraham stopped just outside Salem (which is probably Jerusalem). There he was greeted by the new king of Sodom who was followed by Melchizedek, the king of Salem, priest of El Elton. Melchizedek brought bread

and wine to feed Abraham and his men. Then Melchizedek blessed Abraham (vv.

17-20). Abraham next honored Melchizedek by giving him a tenth of all the spoils of

war that had been stolen from Sodom and Gomorrah (v. 21; Heb. 7:4). The king

of Sodom insisted that Abraham keep the rest of the spoils for himself and only

return the persons who had been taken from his area of rule (v. 21). Abraham told

the king of Sodom that he had promised the LORD (Yahweh, Jehovah), whom he

recognized as the El Elton (Most High God), that he would not take any of the

spoil (vv. 22-23). Abraham said he did not want the king of Sodom to boast about making him rich (vv. 23-24).Melchizedek does not provide a legitimate pre-law foundation which can be used as an example of tithing for the New Covenant Christian. Although my conclusion is also heldby many Christian denominations, it is noteworthy that this is also the original position of the Scoffed Reference Bible, leading schools such as Dallas Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, Wheaton College, and highly respected authors

such as Craig Bloomberg, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Walter Ewell, Theodore EPP, John

MacArthur, Charles Rorie, Charles Swindon, Merrill Under and John Walvoord.

These conservative evangelical scholars contend that the historical Melchizedek

was never used to validate tithing in the Mosaic Law under the Old Covenant

and cannot be used to validate tithing in the New Testament after Calvary. There is no eternal principle found in Genesis 14 which can be brought forward beyond Calvary to the church today .Ample evidence of this position exists in the writings of the previously mentioned authors which are used as textbook authorities in many colleges and seminaries today. In order to understand the relevance of tithing from this narrative, it is first necessary to stop using verses 18-20 out of their historical context as proof texts and exegete the entire chapter with sound principles of interpretation. It is odd that, while many conservatives ministers who support tithing accept dispensational eschatology, but they reject dispensational giving principles. Abraham’s Tithe Was from the Spoils of War, But Not from Personal Property 14:16 And h e brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. 14:20 And he gave him tithes of all. Heb. 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. Abraham’s tithe was clearly from the spoils of war, booty, which had been taken from Sodom and Gomorrah. It was not from the (later) holy land of Israel, nor

was it the defined food and herds from that (later) holy promised land; that is,

it did not match the description of tithes as limited under the Mosaic Law (see

chapter one). Neither did his tithe support a true Levitical priesthood which had

forsaken land ownership in order to serve Yahweh. Abraham, as head of his household, was a priest himself, and, as such, built

altars and worshiped God directly (Gen. 12:7, 8; 13:4, 18; 15:9-18). He did not

require a priest like Melchizedek to intercede for him to God. Like Arab clan

leaders of our time, as his family’s priest he would make direct contributions of

charity to the poor as he served God throughout his nomadic travels. Proper

exegesis should begin the discussion of verse 20 at least at verse 16, instead of verse18, and should continue it beyond verse 20, to at least verse 21. When Abraham reached the outskirts of Salem he possessed the spoils of war. This included all of the goods which the defeated enemy had taken from the region of Sodom, plus all of the hostages, including Lot. Abraham very clearly gave from this bounty his "tithe" to Melchizedek. As a victorious king with Abraham as his "general," Melchizedek had first choice of the top of the heap of spoils, the first ten percent of the spoil. However, there is no hint in Scripture that Abraham ever

tithed any of his personal property to Melchizedek, either at this time, or later. tithing did not originate in the Bible (and nobody claims that it did). It was a well-known pagan practice from Phoenicia, Egypt, Canaan, Mesopotamia and lands around the Fertile Crescent. It was a mandatory customary tax to a pagan god or ruler. The Roman Empire continued

this tradition by requiring its defeated subject nations, like Israel, to return the

spoil of the first tithe of the land to them! From a comparison of discussions of

verse 21, Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek was in obedience to this old Arab war

custom and was not a command from Yahweh. Evidently, the Arab war custom

specified that ten percent of the spoils of war be given to the local priest-king,

while the ninety percent belonged to the victor. Abraham was OBLIGATED to pay a special one-time tithe-tax of the spoils of war. While those spoils usually belonged to an enemy, in this case, they belonged to Melchizedek’s ally, ambassador-friend, and possible subject, the king of Sodom(and those he represented). Most of us have been told all of our lives that Abraham gave a free-will tithe to Melchizedek—but no evidence for this exists in God’s Word. Many commentaries and theologians give contradictory reasons "why" Abraham tithed. Did he tithe

because he freely wanted to give an offering to thank God and honor Melchizedek?

Or did he tithe because he was obligated to tithe in observance of an old Arab

war custom? It is clearly contradictory to interpret the ten percent in verse 20 as

"free-will" and interpret the ninety percent in verse 21 as an "Arab war custom." A

resolution of this contradiction is crucial for a correct understanding of Abraham’s

tithe and simply must be reconciled if the truth is to emerge.While we are always reminded to properly compare "apples to apples" and not "apples to oranges," most commentators ignore this simple childhood rule in discussing the tithe of Genesis 14:20. Under ARAB custom, the spoil-tithe was TEN percent, 10%. However, under the Mosaic Law, the spoil-tithe was only ONE percent (1%) to the Levites(Numbers 31:27,28) and only one tenth of one percent (.1%) to the priests(Numbers 31:29,30).In fact, if God’s spoken word to Moses in Numbers 31:25 is of "ordinance" valueand adds to the ordinance in verse 21, then these verses contain THE ordinance ofthe Mosaic Law which sets the spoil-tax at only one percent (1%)(1/50th of one

half, or 1/100th) and not ten percent (10%) which the Arab tradition required in

Genesis 14:20! The priests still received 1/10th of that which the Levites received.

Therefore, when we compare spoil-tithes to spoil-tithes, we discover why neither

Moses nor the Law referred back to Abraham as an example of Law tithing—they

were different! Also, while it is noteworthy that the priests received a "tithe," or one tenth as much as the Levites received (1/1000th is 10% of 1/100th), the Arab custom of a ten percent spoil-tax-tithe from Genesis 14 is greatly reduced to only one percent in the Mosaic Law. See also First Samuel 30:20-35 for an example of David’s distribution of spoils of war. Genesis 14 is a discussion of how Abraham reacted to the Arab custom of paying

a tenth of the spoils of war to the local priest-king. While living under pagan

rulers, he obeyed pagan custom. Genesis 14 is not a discussion of tithing under

the Mosaic Law. If one were to properly compare "apples to apples," then a comparable

discussion should lead to the one percent in Numbers 31 and other Old

Testament texts which refer to spoils of war. Only an incorrect "apples to oranges"

approach changes the subject from spoils-of-war tithes to Levitical tithes.

Abraham Gave Up His Rights under Traditional Law and Returned the Ninety Percent.

Abraham did not choose to tithe to Melchizedek because he was priest of the

true Most High God. Instead, Abraham was obligated by long-standing Arab

war custom to return a tithe of the spoils of war. Since there is no correlationbetween this tithing and that found in the Mosaic Law, the Mosaic Law never

quotes Genesis 14 or even alludes to it in support of tithing. This is strange,

indeed, since most modern tithe-advocates ignore the law as a foundation, go

fi rst to Melchizedek, and then turn back to Leviticus 27 and Malachi 3 to fi nd

money instead of food. They also preach tithing and Melchizedek from Genesis

14 instead of the more dangerous Melchizedek text of Hebrews 7.

The king of Sodom followed the old tradition when he asked for return of the

persons taken from him. Evidently, Canaanite custom permitted Abraham to keep

the goods and only return the persons. Therefore, as soon as Abraham offered a

tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek, the king of Sodom insisted that Abraham keep

the balance of the goods, the ninety percent, for himself (vv. 20-21). Verse 21

simply must be included in any discussion of verse 20. 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to theLORD, the Most High God.…

This declaration by Abraham begins the dramatic climax of the narrative and

the real key point of the entire narrative in Genesis 14. Abraham declared allegiance

to "Yahweh," his LORD, whom he knew was the real "Most High God" (v.

22). He refused to keep the customary ninety percent of the spoils (vv. 23-24).

Why Chapter 14 Divides 12-13 and 15-17 14:23 That I will not take from a thread even to a sandal thong, and that I will not take any thing that is yours, in case you should say, I have made Abram rich, 14:24 Except only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Chapter 14 follows God’s promises by faith to Abraham in chapters 12 and 13

and it precedes God’s promises by faith in chapters 15 through 17. When Abraham

did not deserve blessings, he received wealth (by grace) from Pharaoh (chapter

12) and Abimelech (chapters 20, 21). However, when he actually did something

to earn wealth in chapter 14, he gave it all back. In chapter 14 Abraham had an

opportunity to become suddenly very wealthy through his own works by keeping

the riches of Sodom and the fi ve kings of the southern Dead Sea. Yet Abraham,

refusing to acquire wealth in such manner, returned ALL of it, not just ten percent!

This event demonstrates that Abraham’s justification, sanctification, and

wealth ALL depended on faith, and not matters of customs and law.

Abraham represented God’s covenant of grace, not the Old Covenant of law. The Arab custom concerning the spoils of war demanded a tribute of a tithe and allowed Abraham to keep the ninety percent and become instantly much more wealthy. However, while living under the constraints of Arab law, Abraham refused to be blessed through the provisions of that law. He deliberately rejected the Arab law-blessing opportunity because he knew that God was fully capable of blessing him through the operation of grace and faith in his life. Keeping the

ninety percent would have meant keeping the worldly goods belonging to the

king of Sodom. God had better blessings in store for Abraham which are eternal.

Again, Genesis 14 is a narrative with the climax at the end of the story, and

not in the middle. The climax involves neither Melchizedek, nor tithing. Instead,

it involves Abraham’s assurance that God would keep his promises made by grace

through faith, and not by military conquest, or Arab law-keeping. Summary: Abraham’s Tithe is Not an Example for Christians to Follow

Some believe that this passage demonstrates that tithing is commanded to the

New Testament church because it existed before the law, just as marriage was

before the law. But this comparison is not valid. Marriage preceded the law, was

included in it, and was also repeated after the law. However, tithing, Sabbathobservance and unclean foods also preceded the law, were included in it, but were

not repeated after Calvary as commandments to the Christian church.

Abraham’s spoils-of-war tithe was:

One: Not a commandment of the LORD, but an observance of a common pagancustom.

Two: Not of his own personal property, but was only of the spoils of war fromunbelievers.

Three: Not a Mosaic holy land tithe; he returned 100% to Canaanites.

Four: Not a means of wealth through Arab law-keeping.

Five: Not quoted to support tithing for Hebrews or Christians.

Six:Not a condition of receiving God’s blessings promised through faith in surrounding chapters.

Seven: Not to Abraham’s LORD, Yahweh, but to a pagan priest who did not know

and worship God as LORD. Melchizedek probably worshiped Baal as Most High

God and possessor of heaven and earth. As a Canaanite priest-king, Melchizedek

worshiped idols of Baal, offered child sacrifices, and promoted incest and sex with

animals as part of pagan worship ritual. In paying this mandatory tribute, it is

unfortunate that Abraham’s pagan tithe-tax would have been used to promote

such sin. (See Leviticus 18 and Deuteronomy 18:9-14.)

One recent theologian has pointed out that verses 22-25 constitute a vow. If

Abram made this vow prior to rescuing Lot, then the tenth which he gave to

Melchizedek could also be explained as a free-will vow. See David Croteau, Ph.D.

dissertation, 2005., SEBTS.Gen. 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will

keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to

put on,

Gen. 28:21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace—then shall

the LORD be my God,

Gen. 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house;

and of all that you shall give me, I will surely give the tenth to you.

Jacob’s pre-Law promise to tithe is not an example for the church. This event

records the only other pre-Mosaic Law mention of tithing. Also, this is defi nitely

not a spoils-of-war-tithe as in Genesis 14. However, although there may have

existed a tradition to help the poor, Jacob, like Abraham, was not responding to

a command from Jehovah to tithe to a particular ministry of holy service. The

formal law was yet centuries future.

True to his character, Jacob made a rash vow to God. He promised to give God

a tenth of all his possessions. However, Jacob’s promised tithe was conditional—

God must fi rst bless him and then bring him back to Isaac’s house in peace. Jacob

set the conditions, not God. Jacob made a vow to tithe; God did not ask for it.Although God greatly blessed Jacob in Haran, there is no further mention of

tithing in Jacob’s life (or in the book of Genesis).

In all fairness to the subject, we must ask ourselves, "To whom did Jacob give

these tithes?" It is not enough just to say that he "gave them to God." God does

not reach down from heaven and receive them to himself! Like Abraham, Jacob

was surrounded by pagan Canaanite priest-kings. If he gave a tithe to them, he

would actually be promoting idolatry, child sacrifi ces, sex with animals, and

worship-prostitution! There was no God-called Levitical priesthood to receive

them. Neither was there a temple in Jerusalem as promised and commanded later

in Deuteronomy. As head of his own household, Jacob, like all patriarchs from

Adam until the Law, was a priest himself and did not require a hierarchy of priesthood.

Unless we are willing to accept the extreme liberal contention that Abraham

and Jacob are merely mythological traditions written after Bethel had a temple in

northern Israel, then my question is valid.

Again, as the head of household before the law, Jacob served as his own priest.

He built altars to Yahweh and sacrifi ced on them (Gen. 35:1, 10). He asked for

"food to eat and clothes to wear." He promised to give God "a tenth" "of all that

you give me." Was Jacob promising to give God a tenth of food and clothes?

How would he do that? We do not know. Perhaps Abraham, Isaac and Jacob built

and dedicated shrines to Jehovah (Yahweh). They could then bring food to those

shrines for the poor and needy. We know that Jacob did build an altar at Bethel.

However, if any commandment to tithe had been involved, there would have

been no room for bargaining.Both Abraham’s tithe and Jacob’s tithe are completely out of context with

tithing in the Mosaic Law. While Abram’s gift could have been a free-will vow

(14:21-24), it is clear that Jacob’s gift was a free-will vow. However, it must be

pointed out that, under the law, Israel would later consider even the dust of the

Gentile land as defiling and requiring ceremonial cleansing. Whatever Jacob did

tithe, it originated in pagan Haran or (at that time) pagan Canaan and did not

meet the exact definition of tithes given under the Law. Perhaps this is why his

tithe is not used as an example by Moses. Of course, there is no prohibition against

the source of the tithe from a holy land in the book of Genesis.

Again, to whom did Jacob (and Abraham) tithe when they were wandering

nomads? Except for the unfounded claims that Melchizedek was a faithful true

priest-king serving Yahweh, no similar claim is made for any of the other priest kings

in which territories Jacob and Abraham lived. Like the temple of the moon

god in Haran, except for their own shrines, all of the other shrines and priest kings

were clearly pagan.When Genesis 14 is removed as a candidate to support biblical tithing, then theonly other biblical alternative is the Mosaic Law

dlazarus
November 20, 2007 at 4:02pm
There isn't a single scripture in the Christian bible that says Jesus didn't tithe. Jesus upheld many Old Testament Jewish customs including circumcision and baptism. How could we unequivocally say He didn't tithe? It's not the scripture itself, but our own theology that we impose onto the scriptures that causes our differences. For every scripture you extract and isogete about Old Testament tithing practices, I could reasonably and responsibly reply "nowhere does it say that the principle changed in the Old Testament".

Your last response helped me to see why we approach each of these scriptures in such different ways. You mentioned that the farmers and herders had to tithe b/c they got their increase "from God's hand", and that "those whose increase came from their own crafts and skills were not required to tithe ...". That speaks to a huge difference in our theology. I believe that the increase that comes from my own crafts and skills comes as much from the hand of God as that of the farmers and herders. I, as such, believe I owe the tenth of it back to him as did and do the farmers and herders. God has to bless me with crafts and skills and an environment to make them productive as much as He has to bless the farmers and herders with good weather, etc.

If we don't agree on that point from a theological perspective, then we can agree to disagree on the subsequent tithing issues, or just continue the discussion for the sake of possible growth and edification. I'm open to either.

But to the initial point of the initial post in this thread: It's obvious that you don't believe tithing is sound doctrine for the New Testament believer. I would guess that you wouldn't remain in a church that taught tithing. My initial post really spoke to the question of why someone with your view on tithing (or maybe not as informed or passionate a view, or maybe no view whatsoever) would remain in a tithe teaching church, then just refuse to tithe.

It makes sense to me to not tithe in a non-tithe teaching church (if there be such a thing). It makes sense to me to leave a church if they taught a doctrine I believed to be false or oppressive b/c it was legalistic. What doesn't make sense to me is to stay in a tithe teaching church and refuse to tithe.
believer
November 20, 2007 at 4:07pm

We now can get past the fact that pre-mosaic law tithing is not comparable to your insistance on tithing.  We are able to show through historical records that the Israelites had many exempted jobs and income sources .  That makes mute your point that today your wages are the new tithing source.  Since innkeepers, fisherman, bakers, candle makers,carpenters, clothing makers, hired farm workers, hired herdsmen, hired household servants, jewelry craftsmen, masons, metal craftsmen, musicians, painters, perfume makers, physicians, sculptors, soldiers, tanners, teachers and tent makers to name a few were exempted by God from Tithing.  I previously posted why recieving offerings was not the same as recieving tithes. You use scriptural referances 3 times in your posts prefering to expound on what we like to call dissimilis aetas hominis(different ages of man.)  Saying scripture is outdated (much as pastors driving cars) and must be reinterpreted by you to fit into our modern society.  I will make one request of you, in that it is nearly impossible to talk about the bible without quoting scripture, could you grace me with some about how tithes are meant to be reinterpreted by future societies leaving out the previously proved exempted occupations.  I am sure a humanist could use the same logic to support abortion, euthanasia, etc.

believer
November 20, 2007 at 4:23pm

If Jesus had no income how can he tithe you sir do not think clearly or read because I gave reading lists for you to prove that it is the excepted position of a plurality of Schools of theology. "You mentioned that the farmers and herders had to tithe b/c they got their increase "from God's hand", and that "those whose increase came from their own crafts and skills were not required to tithe ...". I did not say that it was a scriptural reference there you go again leaving scripture out.. You also have no business interpreting why some do not tithe to "your church "(possesive of God's house). If you are a minister I can Guarantee your flock is in trouble if you cannot use scripture to support your points and if you are you would have never graduated with a Doctor of Ministry as I have without knowing how to research Sitz. im Leben. I will continue this discussion with others who can quote scripture and read references(if the educational background is lacking).