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| Will This Beer Bother You? |
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"Will this beer bother you?" We have become a church that is so blatantly hostile towards the behaviors that we have personal convictions about that God’s own hurt children have to begin a conversation with a known Christian in a manner that allows the “mature” Christian to opt out or act self righteous…who and what have we become??? My brother is more concerned about offending me than he thinks I am about his needs…and he feels that way because that is what we do.
I once rebuked a man for smoking outside of the youth building at an old church because I didn’t want the kids to see it…here is what I kindly left out…He was a lost person who had never been to our church before who was sitting under our canopy because it was pouring and he was on a bike. Instead of asking his name, I judged him and made him feel dirty…I had become the Pharisee at the altar casting judgment on the tax collector. I could have sown a seed of love and all I did was further his discouragement. TJ Hasha (a good old friend) gave me a sound lashing instantly and attempted to reconcile the matter…but it was too late. So when I say we…its because we all do it. Some of us figure it out and some don’t.
We are a church plagued with sexual immorality that runs from the doors to the pulpits…addictions to slander and gossip, discouragement and division run so deep we can’t tell their end from their beginning. We sell prayers, prophecies, and healing for offerings and place mortal man on pedestals of perfection yet we focus our attention on taboos…unwritten laws that we have decided for ourselves fall in line with sin and turn our face away from biblically pronounced sin…
Drink your beer, it neither bothers me nor God…He is concerned with matters of the heart…I am now trying to follow that lead. By the way…I’m glad you’re here…how have you been? |
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| Excellent post. I agree with you whole heartedly. We will never reach anyone until we learn to love them.
People don't care how much you know, but they will know how much you care.
Bro Chris |
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| Good post, I'll drink to that!
(Just kidding. But I agree.)
God bless you!
-Mike |
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Craig |
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February 06, 2007 at 1:45am |
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| Excellent point my friend. Well written too. God will call the mature Christian to change as HE sees necessary when they are ready. He gives us only what we can handle. It's our job to help the maturation process begin not to change people. I think you and your lovely bride are on to that. Keep up the good work. God Bless. |
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| Hurray!!! I love your Blog!!! |
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J_Bass |
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February 06, 2007 at 2:45pm |
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| Amen, bro. I wish people could see this put into action a little more often. -Jay |
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| I also say Amen! God loves everyone equally and we need to love one another unconditionally, whether they hold a cigarette in their hand and a beer in the other or a bible. If God is concerned with their hearts we should be too!
God bless |
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Obviously some people forget that Guinness is good for you. There's a loaf of bread in every pint.
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| A Scottish pastor I knew said the only thing he didn't like about visiting America was the lack of appreciation for a good pint following a hard day's preaching! |
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Cathy |
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February 08, 2007 at 9:05pm |
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| Dude !!!!! You are my hero !!!! |
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| The only way your beer will bother me is if you don't share your beer with me. I like beer. And since I like it in moderation, you won't have to worry about me drinking too much of your beer. You'll have some left over to share with the rest of our brothers and sisters -- at least those ones who aren't freaked out by it. :) |
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| I know that we are not to have vain repetion in our prayers, but one thing I pray repeatedly is this, "God help me to see others as you see them. Help me, God, to love others as you love them."
People I thought were questionable before, I no longer fear. It is through the power of God that I find myself speaking to the unspeakable, the tough guys, the outcasts. After all, they're just like me. A sinner in need of a Savior.
Thanks for reminding me of that. I've been the guy you talked about. Thankfully, someone saw through all of that. |
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OBVIOUS |
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February 09, 2007 at 8:57am |
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| That is a great topic . I am in a Christian rock band that God has been called to reach people in some very dark places ,and where Sin and Sinners are excepted and exploited, Bars and night clubs. But does GOD love these people any less because of what they drink? Or does he look at thier heart and see another lost soul just like u and I at one time in our lives. I know having a couple is a far cry from drunkeness. We have talked about this as a band what happens when someone buys us a drink are we self righteous and decline, or have a couple responsably and not loose our testamonies. Maybe the 11th commandment was to not drink beer but GOD left that one out ,or he already knew we could not follow the 10 commandments he already gave us. What the band does is, we wont have anything to drink before our band plays but maybe clubsoda or water that way our minds and hearts are clear and focused on sharing GODs message through some music. We came we Rocked ,at that point they are still trying to figure out what just happened they are not used to music with a real message.But after we have finished our set we dont get in a holy huddle we spread out and share our lives and a BEER with the lost. Try to be a light with Light beer ,have to watch the waist line a beer gut is not a testamony. Peace Rick of OB-VI-OUS |
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Rosie |
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February 09, 2007 at 1:50pm |
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| You are so right it's not what goes in a mans body for it passes right through but it is what comes out of the abundance of his heart that concerns God. |
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Joe |
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February 09, 2007 at 2:12pm |
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| Here's a great video interview of the pastor who started holding meetings at a bar
One of his quotes: "our philosophy of church is to go where people are. Thats what we felt like Jesus did" |
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| After 12 years of Law Enforcement and 25 years as a Pastor/counselor, I have yet to be convinced that consuming alcohol can lead to any good. After answering thousands of domestic violence calls I have personally noted only 4 that did not involve alcohol and/or drugs, mostly alcohol! I have seen it destroy "christian" homes as well as non. Thousands of arrests for DUI, Alcohol Intoxication, Burglary, Assault, Disorderly Conduct and Theft with 95% involving alcohol has lead me to believe that there is nothing good that can come of it.
First note that I did not say that alcohol was "evil", only that there is nothing good that comes of it. I can use scripture to justify the drinking of alcohol and I for one love the taste of a good beer. That's not the point! Do you really need that beer? If you do, you have a problem! If you don't why drink it? I quit because I did not want my kids to see me drink, thinking that it's okay and end up dead in a mangled mess of a vehicle or doing something completely stupid because of the intoxication. That would be my burden and fault because I gave them the okay. If I don't drink, I can tell them not to. If I drink, I don't have that right!
Second, what makes smoking marijuana wrong if drinking a beer is okay? Just because it's illegal? That's hogwash! We are not bound by the laws of this land, we answer to a higher power and He says that we are to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. That means we don't indulge in things that we want to do just because we can! If the only criteria for not doing something is the legality of it, then lying and cheating on your spouse become okay! What if smoking marijuana was legal? Would it then be Godly?
We must be the example to the world. If we are no different than the world, how can we be The Light? The only light they see in us is the Bud Light! Just because you love them, doesn't mean you have to sleep with them, too! Show them a different side of life. Think of this, most of the people hanging out in bars and clubs are addicted to the alcohol and looking for help, you tell them that Jesus can free them while you buy them another round. I have yet to see anyone come to know Christ while sitting in a bar, sharing a drink with christian who is telling them about Christ. It may have happened, I've never talked to the Christian or heard the testimony of even one!
I agree that some of us have been called to minister in some dark places as Obvious Rick mentions. It's not a sin to say, "I'll have a club soda." If it's important to keep your mind and heart clear before a performance, why is it not important to keep your heart and mind clear after performance? Sharing your faith means being a clear example all the time, not just when we stand before the crowd. Some might call that hypocritical. Your idea that declining the offer makes you "self righteous" and accepting the drink keeps you from losing your testimony, doesn't seem to make sense to me. Otherwise, we would have to accept the invitation of the prostitute or the drug dealer.
We are called to be Godly. We are called to be an example. If I have to deny myself a cold brew or a relaxing after work drink with the boys to do that, I guess it's a small price to pay after what He's done and given up for me. Since I don't "have" to have it, I choose not to.
I don't condemn those christians who choose to drink. I only ask that if it has ever caused you to lose your testimony for Christ, that you consider how it effects the whole Body of Christ and if that person you were unable to reach because if it, will spend eternity in hell.
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Derek |
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February 12, 2007 at 11:18am |
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| Actually, what you have described is not ill effects from consuming alcohol, but ill effects from abusing alcohol. The Word counsels us against abuse/excess in anything (including food). So drunkenness and gluttony are sin/idols. Many Christians don't drink a beer or glass of wine because they HAVE to, but because they enjoy the taste. If people drink coke because they HAVE to...that seems to point to addiction. And be careful when you say "nothing good can come of consuming it," because that contradicts Paul's advice to Pastor Timothy about recommending he drink some wine in lieu of the "bad" water...for his health.
Cheers! |
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| I was waiting for someone to bring this perspective into the discussion as it is valid and worth considering. I have alcoholics in my family. I have at least one close brother in Christ who has been delivered from alcoholism. Clearly we are not to cause others to stumble.
Early in my walk I wasn't able to make good judgments about when to drink and when not to and so I just didn't drink at all. Now I feel I am able to consider the circumstances and the people I'm with, listen to the Holy Spirit, and apply good judgment -- hopefully erring on the side of going without if the situation is questionable. Regarding children: I personally want my children to see me treat this in a responsible way since they will have to deal with it on their own some day. I don't get drunk and I don't drive if things are questionable. |
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| Derek, point well taken on separating use from abuse. I guess knowing when use becomes abuse would be the key. I suppose that most people, Christian or not, are unable to know when they reach that point. Almost every drunken person I arrested knew they did not have a drinking problem. They could quit anytime they wanted to, they just didn't want to! Many of them are dead or in prison now and almost all of them have caused a broken marriage.
In reference to Paul's advice to Timothy, He did say "a little wine" and to use it because of his stomach problems, probably a reference to a parasitic problem found in the water. Sounds more like a dose of medicine than a recreational beverage to me. More like taking cough syrup or taking a prescription drug today.
Thanks Michael Hickman for your comments, also. I remember one point that I used to make while teaching DARE in the local school systems..
If kids are told that things like smoking, alcohol and sex are not permissable until they become adults, what does every kid want to be? They want to be adults and they believe that by doing these things, they look like adults and even in their own mind become adults! I say it's better to not drink or smoke and save any sex for marraige. When they get older, they too will have to make a decision. To live a life free of the trappings of this world, that would be the way I would want my son and daughter to grow up. Why even risk an addiction?
I only pray that your children don't take the road that the child of a friend of mine did. When they died in tragic car accident where the sixteen year old girl was obviously drunk, she lived long enough at the hospital to admit to her father that she got the alcohol from his liquor cabinet! She had seen them drink and knew that it must be okay. How do you live through that?
While we can't protect our children from all the dangers of this world, I want to be the best example that I can. I pray that your decision works in your family and in your walk with the Lord.
I don't mean to offend or insult any brother or sister's belief. I only know what I have learned and enjoy being able to share and debate it with others.
thanx
bill |
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Somewhere above, I read: "We are not bound by the laws of this land..."
Perhaps the poster meant to say that we are not just bound by the laws of this land... Jesus says "Render unto Caesar..." Peter writes "Honor the king." And just take a look at Romans 13:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
And that's only the beginning...
Legality alone will never be the last best word on righteousness but illegality is about as strong a hint as we can ask for that we're treading where we oughtn't. (And, of course, I wouldn't apply this to a prohibition on preaching or practicing the Gospel.)
BTW, for what my historical analysis is worth, many of our attempts at legal (or, for that matter, legalistic) prohibitions have had unintended consequences much worse than the thing they were advertised to eliminate. Changing hearts has consistently worked better than changing laws. (Of course, that's more work,takes more time, and doesn't have any of the satisfaction of seeing your will imposed on others...)
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It bothers me that so many of the counterpoints in discussions like this are directed at sin or consequences that only might hypothetically occur at some future date. Notice that I said "occur" not "result from". There's a Latin phrase to describe this kind of speculation: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. -- After this, therefore because of this. It's a logical fallacy which assumes that if one event happens after another, then the first caused the second.
At the most simplistic level, it's stuff like step on a crack, break your mother's back or break a mirror--seven years bad luck. Sometimes it's more subtle (and more pointed): "It must be something you're doing. There were never any problems with that car when I was maintaining it." Even more common are things like "Oh, I'd never eat at that restaurant--I ate there once and I got so sick that I barely made it home..." (Never mind how many hours genuine food-poisoning takes to percolate through your system.)
The worst part is that there's no real way to counter this logic. A smug "Well, we'll just see..." or a contradictory "But how do you know it won't?" end up parading around as a mature exchange of ideas.
The Pharisees got into such a mess because they thought it was a good idea to erect safety barricades around the law. You know, so that if you came around a corner too fast, you wouldn't actually break the law. In fact, you wouldn't even rub up against it and scrape the paint. And then that wasn't enough so there had to be barriers to protect the barricades. Of course, someone realized the barriers needed protecting. Eventually, their traditions were of greater concern than God's law.
"Strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" was a reference to the Pharisaic practice of straining milk before drinking it. See, it was forbidden (by God -- so far so good) to cook a calf in it's mother's milk. (You do have to admit that's pretty twisted.)
But gnats bite cattle and that means a gnat-size beef-serving ends up in the gnat. htere being thousands of cattle and untold numbers of gnats, First Century dairy processing being what it was just how did you know that some gnat that bit the calf of the cow you got your milk from hadn't taken a plunge in your smoothie? Can't be too careful, you know.
It was all about what might be, and potential implications, and "but how do you know it won't" kind of questions. What God had clearly said wasn't enough. "Don't cook the calf in its mother's milk." There needed to be safeguards. But the safeguards didn't end up coming between people and sin. They came between people and God.
We really do want to help. We want to protect our children (physical and spiritual). We want to spare folks making our same mistakes. So we give warnings. We point out the places people have fallen. And in the process we end up erecting safeguards. We're not immune. Humbling, scary thought, isn't it? |
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| Bill, thanks for your gracious response. If you figure out how to live a life free of the trappings of this world, please, please show me how.
It just occurred to me that Jesus turned something like 120 to 180 gallons of water into wine -- for people who had already had too much to drink. I wonder what to make of that... |
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| I would much rather model moderation than cause my children to stumble into legalism--which is the worst of all sins. They have never seen their father drunk; yet they know he's free to drink, and they know what responsible consumption (of food too) looks like.
Bill has many subjective/anecdotal reasons why he thinks the way he does, but at the end of the day, the Scriptures, not sad stories or "what ifs", should shape our views/practices. The Scriptures teach liberty, not license and certainly not legalism. So I'm free to say yes, but I'm also free to say no. If I were free to say yes, but not free to say no, then I wouldn't really be free. And "it is for freedom that Christ has set us free."
This got me to thinking, What's worse, legalism or something like fornication? Then I thought, Who did Jesus spend his time with and who did he reject? Sure, Jesus didn't approve of fornication. But he saw no hope for the hardliner Pharisees.
By the way, here’s what the law says, ironic, about alcohol… Deuteronomy 14:26: “And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or strong drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.” The very Law of God says to rejoice in wine or strong drink, and... in the full presence of God.
The New Testament principle is this: “…for whatever is not from faith is sin.” If your faith permits you to drink in moderation, then exercise that freedom with caution and sensitivity toward others around you. But if your conscience doesn’t permit you to drink then for you, it’s sin. Plain and simple.
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| Mark,
Do you really believe that legalism is any worse than any other sin? I'm not so sure that Jesus rejected these people. On at least one occasion he had dinner with a Pharisee, and on a different occasion Jesus hung out with another Pharisee after dark (Nick at night!).
I actually don't think Jesus rejected the legalists of His day, I think they rejected Him. I believe He has as much love for them as He has for fornicators, gossips, slanderers, drunks, murderers, etc. The problem for the legalist is, those who don't see themselves as needy naturally reject the idea of a humble Savior! ~mike |
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| It doesn't matter if one is worse than the other. Avoid them all.
And let's avoid overlooking the point of people's comments in order to quarrel over words. |
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| Michael,
My question was an honest one, not a search for a quarrel. It's very, very hard to show love to someone who comes across as arrogant and critical, perhaps harder than for any other "class" of sinner. However, modern day Pharisees (and those we perceive as such) should probably be shown the same resiliency in the ministry of love as everyone else. ~mike |
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| Amen - excellent point. I didn't pick that up in your prior comment. Please forgive my misunderstanding. |
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| Which leads me to my next blog...see who is the pharisee now? |
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| I don't think legalism is bad; I think it's satanic. It's saying the cross isn't enough. It's saying that you can do better than the cross. In fact, it's saying you must do better. Paul called it "another gospel" in Galatians and said that if any one preaches this other Gospel, "Let him be accursed." This was Paul's way of loving them -- warning them sternly. We can chat more later! Have a great and awesome day! |
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Cathy |
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February 16, 2007 at 2:15pm |
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| Can I have a beer now? |
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| woah Mark...you want to be careful in your remarks towards legalism...today's definition of a legalist is different in our liberal society...and there are many God-fearing Christians who might be accused of being legalistic due to their conservative, reverent approach to the applications of religion. To call a legalistic person satanic is pretty harsh...who gives you the authority to make such a claim...sounds close to judgemental and it seems you harbor some bitterness towards these "legalists" I say without remorse that I would rather deal with someone who maybe "legalistic" than with a liberal, casual Jesus is my homeboy Christian any day of the week. With ease you can convince someone to take off chains...but it is with much struggle that you must convince one to put them on. Everyone who does not honor Jesus sacrifice says the cross is not enough. I would rather be viewed as legalistic in this liberal, fear mans opinion on Godly matters world any day than to be a part of what is now mainstream, feel good Christianity. |
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| I want to highlight the point I was attempting to make...and I recommend my blog "In response to..." for furthur reading...was that we need to not be judgemental in our ministering to others. We like to use the phrase "judge not" all the time when defending our own actions upon being questioned about questionable behaviors...but we are not under the same guidelines...in fact we are supposed to judge eachother and ourselves...don't believe me...consider this
1Co 5:9-13 I wrote to you in the letter not to associate intimately with fornicators; 10 yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to associate intimately, if any man called a brother and is either a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one not to eat. 12 For what is it to me to also judge those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But God judges those who are outside. Therefore put out from you the evil one.
This is not a common scripture I have heard from most pulpits but is vital in our walk. We are to judge amongst ourselves...it is called accountability and it is the basis of all of the leadership discipleship I oversea. We are not to judge the lost...and that is my point. You had better believe that if I saw a leader in my church openly drinking a beer in a local nightclub he would hear an earful from me...as well as if it were me. It is not what we eat or drink...it is where, when and why that we must ask ourselves and be prepared to answer. But all that is out the window when ministering to the lost. God is their judge...and if we will walk in that we will reach people. One of the comments to this came from a young man who said his team stays away from alcohol before they play at clubs to be able to follow the Lord in music...but after, they enjoy fellowship with them an drink a couple beers with them so they don't destroy their testimony. Young man, your heart is apparant...but you are off track. Do you not need to hear from God when you are actually ministering to the lost in person. How will drinking nullify your testimony...and what is your testimony. Is it centered on you? These are questions that anyone who you were accountable to would ask...I have made many mistakes the few years I have been here but the people I respect the most are those who have made sure to their best I don't make them again. Paul makes it clear through the authority of the Holy Spirit that we are not to apply the checks and balances within the church to those we are ministering to...but we are to apply them to ourselves. To the brother who is "ministering" in the bars, I don't feel you qualify as immoral by any means...don't take me wrong...but I do think your ministry could benefit from some reform. My point was and is we don't need to be judgemental to the lost for doing things that lost people do...especially when we have within ourselves so much of what we are commanded not to have anything to do with. Case in point...who can tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are not aware of one "believer" by claim who is not living in immorality yet is still a part of your circle of peers? Hard question to answer...
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| To the person that holds this letter
My name is Bill Hines & I am the Youth Minister for what I consider the best group of students on this planet. They have such a desire to know truth & follow it & I have had the privilege to be the one, by God’s grace, to lead them on this journey. That being said, an opportunity has come to further this journey in a very incredible way, through a concert venue. This is much more than any Christian concert ever created, of which I will explain further in this letter. Cornerstone ’07 takes place in the cornfields of Illinois, just outside Peoria. It is a 6-day event starting the 25th of June & ending the 30th. We would be taking 2 days to drive up & 2 days to drive back making this a 10-day experience. I say experience because everyone that has ever gone with me on this trip has not come back the same & this will be my 10th time going. To some this may appear to be just a music festival with over 300 bands on 14 stages, some of the best names in Christian alternative music. But along with that there are seminars on all kinds of topics geared toward youth, by teachers that have lived through these different situations & have had a complete transformation by the Grace of a loving God. With this is sporting events, rock climbing, movies, skate boarding, a giant human sling shot swing thing, & swimming in 175 acres of beautiful lake. And yet with all that, this is still not what makes Cornerstone the most influential event in the world. These students will meet people their age from all over the world. They will camp side by side with other students from all kinds of different backgrounds. Students that come in all shapes & sizes, Punk, Goth, Grunge, Hardcore, Bikers, Skaters, Sports Minded, & just about any other sub-culture you could think of, with one common interest, Jesus. If you have never been in a place where there were thousands of people from all walks of life with hands lifted together in praise to our Lord & Savior, I can honestly say it is a beautiful sight. I know that this makes our Lord smile. I say all this to give you opportunity to invest in a student’s life by sponsoring them on their trip. We have a $4500 need to transport (rental van & gas), feed, pay for campsites (for trip up & back) & purchase tickets for 13 students. This comes out to less than $350 per student. If you are interested in supporting this group, please call me at 512 924-1097 & I will arrange for a receipt & letter of contribution. I would be happy to answer any & all questions that you may have or you can go to www.cornerstonefestival.com.
Thank you for taking time out to read this Bill Hines
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| Yes Restore, this one has been laid in dust for some time but the issue should be always before us. |
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Ragland |
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December 06, 2007 at 11:04am |
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| I admire your honesty. |
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| Thankyou ragland, I have found transparancy with humility can be a great teacher for others |
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| I like root beer. Not that that really matters.....or is even in line with the subject......... :) |
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| Yeah, a little off the path i am afraid but root beer is good |
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I have always said sin is found rarely in action but easily in intent. We do focus too much on "actions" that we feel are uncomfortable and label them sin...america's church focuses sin as taboos and throws out the flagrant sins listed in the Bible (immorality, slander, gossip, adultery).
As far as organized religion being a mess, so has unorganized religion...that is because we are a mess. Put us in an organized group, the group is a mess, put us in an unorganized group, that is a mess. You said grace and that is the ticket. I read somewhere that where sin abounds grace all the more abounds (Rom 5:20) and when a group beit organized or unorganized chooses to follow after grace and let the Holy Spirit do its work, they set themselves apart from the stereotypical church. |
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Actually, Timothy was a pastor of the church of ephesus which met in the temples and had a number of members over 10,000. The apostles modeled the church fellowship after their jewish counterparts. It only was more special now they understood it all. They met and gathered...they collected offerings. Tithing was concocted in 777AD? It was a given from the law? And since when is stewardship "business." I was part of a fellowship of just under 3000 members who genuinely loved the Lord. I mean really. But there was a lot of money to be properly dealt with and the church did so with sound judgement. For people to demand that the only proper way to meet is in homes...that is placing the same boundaries and forcing the same opinions as doctrine as they accuse the "mega-churches" of doing. The early church did meet in homes, and they met openly in the temple. They did both. They tithed and gave offerings. It is recorded. They met in homes for soley the purpose of survical. In many places, to meet openly meant certain death. That was a major motivation...one that you don't deal with.
We must learn how to worship corporately...we must learn to strive in unity. Claiming that meeting with a couple of people cuts the mustard...nah. I meet in home groups. It is intimate...it is great...it is an aspect of the Christian walk. But to demand that it is the end of it?
Now read this with the rest. I am aware of small towns where all of the local churches are just pretty much dead, hurt their members, or cultish in their practices. So to people who live in those areas, home churches are probably the only options. My in-laws live in a place like that. They are devout in their faith and have tried the local churches but as I can testify to there is no way I would be caught in one. If that is your situation, great. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There are thousands of solid fellowships that have grown from home groups that now maintain large numbers and meet in larger buildings...and have intimate relationships with their members. |
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JessIAm |
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December 11, 2007 at 9:07pm |
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Patrick, I haven't read all the responses because the original blog is so profound. I just have to comment on it.
Patrick, that was one of the most Godly things I've read on mychurch. Thanks. I totally agree. For me, it was berating a woman in a donut shop because she wasn't taking her daughter to Church. I actually said she was a bad Mom because of it. Ever since God taught me to love other people (which he did after about 15 years of me being a Christian - I wasn't his healthiest son), I've been very ashamed of that. The amazing thing is Jesus even took my shame to the cross with Him. He died for my shame, so I don't have to carry it anymore.
Here's to our next step (I don't have a beer in my hand, but consider this a toast before Jesus). |
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| Patrick, your response to Tropical (December 11, 2007 at 8:58pm) should be a blog in itself, it's a very good response to those who would paint "organized fellowships/churches" with a broad brush. And unfortunately, it seems that's the thing to do these days. ~mike |
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| BTW - this has to be a record or something, the time span between my first comment and most recent on this blog is like 10 months or something! |
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Lourdes |
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December 12, 2007 at 9:08am |
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| Hey great blog! Really enjoyed it. I also enjoyed the comments, especially your good response to the organized groups versus unorganized groups comment ;-) |
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Dennis, this will go nowhere quick. Your source of info is a biased site with no valid publisher and its historical account is flawed. I can claim a bunch of sources the other direction. But the Bible specifically deals with money...Jesus Himself responded to those attempting to trap Him with money coining the phrase (no pun) render to ceaser...render to God...and it dealt with money. He paid the temply tax...tithing was more than money...and I offer a tenth of my everything including trade and harvest to the Lord...as was and still done. But who gets paid with flower in the USA? So it is about money.
Let us continue this elsewhere...that is not the essence of this blog. But you invalidate your message of how the church is "business" and how I emasculate people by your obvious hatred in our writings. Sorry, but you have some nerve stating you know what goes on where you have never walked. Enough of this.
Mike, I am sure it is a record...I wonder if I can get a stipend or something.
Thanks Lourdes! |
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