S L Guthrie
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||November 04, 2007 at 10:10pm|email it|267 reads
 

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Greg
November 07, 2007 at 4:19pm

I find it interesting how the first year philosophy student asking such a non-question automatically correlates the philosophy of religion with Christianity. As if.

Garry Smith
November 15, 2007 at 1:28am

(an omnipotent god)

This is not like asking god, or a human, to make a "square circle".

Can god make a snowball he can't lift? Humans can do something god can't.

Can god make a more powerful god? Suicide? Evolve? Grow?

A better theist answer might be that god could make a snowball and then not be able to lift it, until he wants to. Since god's goal is failure, he is still omnipotent. Or why not solve this with a creative use of time as another demension - god exists without time (how else could be made in the first place-he was never made at all!) . So god creates a rock he cannot lift and lifts, but not at the same time - because there is no time!

S L Guthrie
November 15, 2007 at 7:36pm
I think your proposed solution here is unacceptable because it makes no sense to say that time does not exist where a sequence of events occur one after the other.  Also, you have missed the force of the objection here.  The subject is about a rock so big God cannot lift it at all.  To say that God can't lift it at t=1 but can at t=2 I think trivializes the argument.  And appeal to a timelessness for God to explain such duration yet such duration is not supposed to exist is, in my estimation, incoherent.  Now, I've explained that this scenario faulters on the fact that the objection is posed in such a way as to be self-contradictory.  Put it this way: What exactly is a rock so big that God cannot lift it?  It's a meaningless question because the question asserts "What is a limitation on God's power that does not consist of a limitation of God's power?"  And that is precisely like a "square-circle" or a "married bachelor."  It's a self-contradictory claim.  If atheism is going to be taken more seriously, we have to consider those arguments that have better force.  Atheists themselves have abandoned this one - and rightly so!
Garry Smith
November 16, 2007 at 11:42am

It's self-contradictory as long as god is defined to be forever omnipotent (ie infinite power). A rock that god cannot lift cannot exist (illogical) because god can always lift any rock he makes. If god could make this rock, it would prove he was not omnipotent therefore, since god is defined with infinite power, the rock cannot exist.  In this way it's like the square-circle. Though, the question is less obvious that it's illogical than a square-circle. Of course if god is illogical and omnipotent - he really can do whatever he wants.

If god's power is finite, then can he make a rock he cannot lift? Would you define this rock as a square-circle? If god's power is finite, the rock can exist - even if god cannot make it.

Though, somewhere I read that god never changes, does this mean his power is finite? Would an increase in power cause a decision to be changed, his character to be changed?

"I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6a)
JessIAm
November 16, 2007 at 12:26pm
Someone asked me that question once.  I answered "Why would He want to do that?"
S L Guthrie
November 16, 2007 at 6:48pm

Good discussion, guys.  Keep it up - the church needs to continue to engage such interesting dialogue!

 I think Garry understands the situation here - that's it's like a square-circle just in case we understand omnipotence as "infinite power" (though I would have issues with this particular definition, it's sufficient for our purposes here).  What needs to be corrected is what it means to be self-contradictory.  Now, keep in mind it isn't objects that are self-contradictory but propositions.  That the atheistic objection boils down to an omnipotent God creating something that limits that power shows, in a more obvious way, the inconsistent nature of the "thing" to be created.  If this does not strike one as "obvious" like a square-circle, this might be because notions of "squares" and "circles" are descriptions more prevalent in our day-to-day understandings.  Therefore it is correct to say that if God were not omnipotent, then such a thing could conceivably exist.  But that also means that neither proposition contradicts the other ("God is finite" does not contradict "something God cannot do").

One final remark - Malachi 3:6a.  The passage here is about God's fidelity and character, not about his omnipotence (cf. Hebrews 13:8).  But to attach a better understanding of omnipotence, it would be better defined as, in the words of Thomas Flint and Alfred Freddoso, "maximal power" (see their important seminal essay at http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/mp.htm).

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