Ian Grant Spong
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McChurch
||November 11, 2007|678 reads
 

To add a comment to "McChurch"
Mike n Laura
November 11, 2007
"bear with me a little in my folly" ... I love your humility, Grant!

"assembly line production and a real-estate based franchise arrangement" ... Well, the line at the communion table is very much like an assembly line. And our church does aspire to owning land one day... But I'm not sure that's what you're getting at.

Re: routine and franchise. Lau.. and I are now at a church whose routine is worship music, sermon, communion/worship music. Gloriously simple. Can't be much more stripped down. Routine? Maybe, but also wide open in that we never fully know what to expect from God during those simplified segments of the service. The afternoon service we attend in contrast is fully routine. The entire thing is scripted and utilizes the exact same order every week. And yet every week it seems so fresh! So full of God! You see, it's a service we conduct for Alzheimers patients at an assisted living ctr. (You prob. have read my blogs about this b4.)

So sometimes routine isn't a bad thing. Franchise? I believe we try to accommodate people from different backgrounds of the faith. We try hard to major in the majors, so to speak. It certainly bears repeating though to remind us that no single church building possesses the full truth about God!
Ian Grant Spong
November 12, 2007
Mike, routine is certainly beneficial. As you guessed, that was not my point. People sometimes stumble over my seeming criticism of something when that is not my point at all, but to stir up the gray matter.

Restore, I agree Jesus is the whole point of it.
Ian Grant Spong
November 12, 2007
Tropical, you are right! Jesus had the right to judge those guys because he is the judge. Or is that: he "am" the judge. Anyhoo, I am not, so I'd better be careful not to tread on Jesus' toes. On the other hand, we are to discern what God wants US to do and that does not have to fit in ANY agenda of human beings. However, it also means we ought not judge their place in God's kingdom either. That's sometimes a fine line, eh? I'm not sure I've got that one figured out yet.
Ian Grant Spong
November 12, 2007
I agree! There is also the case of Shimei judging David, wrongly. Or the Pharisees judging Jesus, wrongly. As you can see, I tend to see both sides of any discussion. :)
Ian Grant Spong
November 12, 2007
"Discern" I completely agree with. But, I'm sorry, but I'm VERY uncomfortable with the idea of "exposing" everyone's sins all the time. I think there is a time to overlook the sins of yes, even leaders. The time for exposure is when the abuse level becomes unacceptable, and that too is a judgment call. I'm not saying, wink at sin. I am saying that we all sin, even leaders. The question is, what level sin disqualifies someone for office and which doesn't?
Ian Grant Spong
November 13, 2007
I have the same problem with those teachings too.
Gene Boecker
November 13, 2007
Grant, great topic and excellent insights.

The doctrine issue is one that is used regularly in MyChurch blogs - still quite true, however.  We are united under the Blood of the Lamb.  I have a quote on my "regular" email account:

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity"

-- Peter Meiderlin (c 1627)

That has been true for almost 400 years.

The one thing that I see missing from any comments is the question about where do we go from here?  Is regularity something to be cherished (except for bathroom-oriented commercials, of course)?  Or, do we need to be available to God's leading in such a way that we stop opening franchises and start the opening of whatever it is that He says we should - whether food service, bookstore or clothing shop?  (All of which have allegories in stewardship). I think it is the latter.  You can't franchise the Holy Spirit.

Ian Grant Spong
November 13, 2007
Excellent contribution Gene! I agree, routine has its purposes, but it ought not be a sacred cow. You know what sacred cows are for? Sacrificing! LOL.

I think that innovation is fantastic. Sunday School was a very successful innovation. So was catechism. So are small groups. However, it all tends to become a sacred cow over time, just like grandma's roast. Mom cut off the bone of the roast as a ritual. Daughter asked why. Mom said that's the way it's always been. They both asked grandma why the tradition. Grandma replied that she had to cut off the bone for it to fit in her small pot. What once stemmed from practical necessity, had become a vain ritual.

So, what does all that mean? Where ought we go from here? I think that some churches need to seriously consider the relevance of organ music, vestments, 3 songs, outmoded doctrines which were formulated in days of theological ignorance, styles of preaching which no longer fit post modern minds, and a host of other similar things.

When the Big Mac is no longer selling, we need to see what is. The fundamental doctrines of Christianity ought never change. But MANY doctrines are very recent historically, both Catholic AND Protestant. Many traditions are given greater importance than Jesus.

Change, revolution, reformation is what I'm about. And I realize that many reformers have been hated, unpopular, even martyrs. However, I must be true to what I believe is right. Many traditions are rich with meaning. Many are empty. Many modern innovations are brilliant. Many are just wacky fads. Discerning the difference is a BIG discussion. I cannot kowtow to empty traditions and wacky fads. Just give me Jesus!
Gene Boecker
November 14, 2007
Grant,

I have an excellent book for you: The Sky is Falling: Leaders Lost in Transition.

It isn't even about change to accommodate new techniques and technologies - it's Adaptive change that's needed.  Christ has the promises.  We need to be able to communicate that regardless of what conditions are before us.
Joey     R
November 16, 2007
God loves his children.  His children are the ones in dispute.  God is God.  I wonder.... what God thinks?
Ian Grant Spong
November 16, 2007
Gene, thanks for the book idea. It sounds really great! I'll be sure to include that one on my wish list.

Joey, I also often wonder the same thing. What does God think of all our denominational preening and show of feathers? Perhaps like any Dad who sees his kids playing one-up-manship, he just shakes his head dumbfounded that we are so self-important.