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| No Repentance from Willow Creek - Only a Mystical Paradigm Shift |
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Recently, headlines about Willow Creek filled the front pages of several online news outlets. The caption stated: "A Shocking Confession from Willow Creek Community Church." Some wondered if Willow Creek's pastor Bill Hybels was repenting from past errors in ministry techniques.1 But a Lighthouse Trails commentary showed that this "shocking confession" was actually a re-enforcement of Willow Creek's efforts to "transform this planet" through contemplative and emerging spiritualities. The LT commentary stated:
It is no new thing that Willow Creek wishes to "transform the planet." They are part of the emerging spirituality that includes Rick Warren and many other major Christian leaders who believe the church will usher in the kingdom of God on earth before Christ returns. This dominionist, kingdom-now theology is literally permeating the lecture halls of many Christian seminaries and churches, and mysticism is the propeller that keeps its momentum. If Willow Creek hopes to transform the planet, they won't be able to get rid of the focus on the mystical (i.e., contemplative). Their new Fall 2007 Catalog gives a clear picture of where their heart lies, with resources offered by New Age proponent Rob Bell, contemplative author Keri Wyatt Kent, and the Ancient Future Conference with emerging leaders Scot McKnight and Alan Hirsch as well as resources by Ruth Haley Barton and John Ortberg. Time will tell what Willow Creek intends to do about strengthening its focus on "spiritual practices" and "transform[ing] the planet."
Well, it appears it isn't going to take a lot of time to see what their future intentions look like. The most current issue (Fall 2007) of Willow Creek's magazine, Willow (in hard copy and also online) gives a clear view of the organization's spiritual emphasis. The issue titled Ministry Shifts has a subtitle that says: "The landscape of our ministries is shifting. Brace yourself for the aftershocks."
Article titles in this Willow issue certainly make a statement that things are going to change: "Seismic Shifts," "Rediscovering Spiritual Formation," "Stemming the Tide," "The Changing Face of Worship," "Shifts in Missional Mindset," and "The Next Great Debate." With such commitment to change, it's no wonder Willow Creek supports Brian McLaren, who is currently on his "Everything Must Change" tour (named for his new book).
In the first article, "Seismic Shifts," the message is straightforward: "Change or die. ... If the local church refuses to change, it will die. ... But the winds of change are blowing. Leaders and entire congregations are making the choice to try something new. They are looking at the world, culture, norms and trends and they are daring to take a chance, venture a risk, find another way." Bell explains that the other articles in the issue give "snapshots" of how the church is now shifting.
In the first article to follow, "Rediscovering Spiritual Formation," meditation promoter Keri Wyatt Kent writes positively about "monastic communities" and "the emergent church." Quoting or favorably referring to one mystic after the next (Richard Foster, Ruth Haley Barton, David Benner, John Ortberg, etc.) Kent paints a picture that shows mysticism's role in this seismic shift Willow Creek proclaims. She correctly states that while there are some "conservative" Christians who are suspect of spiritual formation, by and large the term and "the practices" have become "mainstream." These practices, of course, are the mystical practices that are the energy behind the spiritual formation movement.
Kent identifies Scot McKnight as part of this mystical shift. McKnight acknowledges the Catholic connection to contemplative practices, and amazingly, Kent brings into her article Catholic priest Richard Rohr. Why amazing? Rohr's spirituality would be in the same camp as someone like Matthew Fox who believes in pantheism and panentheism. For Willow Creek to include him in Willow speaks volumes about the level of spiritual deception that Willow Creek is now under. If Kent is right that spiritual formation is now mainstream, then this deception is mainstream as well.
While the Willow issue says that they are not moving away from biblical principles, nothing could be further from the truth. For those reading this who may be new to the terms contemplative prayer and spiritual formation, it is quite simple. A mantric-style meditation is practiced so that the pray-er can enter a silent, altered state, which supposedly allows him or her to hear God's voice and be transformed. However, because the premise of contemplative prayer is panentheistic (God in all), it is actually occultic in nature. We can say that, because in occultism all things are one, and there is no distinction between God and man - both enjoy equal glory. This is why research analyst Ray Yungen believes that the mystery of iniquity talked about in the book of Revelation could very well be mysticism. If man is brought under the delusion that he is part of God and one with God (with or without Jesus), then the Cross and the Gospel become of no effect (theoretically). It is Satan's ultimate desire to be equal to God (Isaiah 14:14), and he tried to convince Eve of this in the Garden of Eden and continues to this day with his seductive alluring.
Some people have said that contemplative spirituality and the emerging church are just passing whims or trends. But that isn't true, and Keri Wyatt Kent see that. She explains: "Spiritual formation is not a passing fad, but it does continue to shift and to change as the Church and its people grow." Of course, what this really means is that where once the true nature of contemplative had to be disguised, more and more it can come out of the closet. No passing fad here. Contemplative is pure New Ageism, the devil's religion to put it bluntly.
For those who realize that contemplative spirituality is the vehicle through which the kingdom-now, emerging church, dominionist views draw their strength and momentum, Willow Creek's "shocking confession" will indeed be very shocking. As Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and most other major leaders in Christianity today, stand arm and arm with contemplatives and emerging spirituality, those who understand biblical prophecy about the days prior to Christ's return will realize that history is being made. But unfortunately, Scripture warns that Satan will deceive the whole world (Revelation 12:9) and that a great falling away will occur. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. Let us be sober-minded and diligent to stand for biblical truth and the Gospel that alone can save the soul that turns to Jesus Christ in humility and repentance, acknowledging Him to be God, Lord, and Savior. 5:1 But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. 5:2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 5:3 When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 5:4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5:5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 5:6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 5:7 For those who sleep sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 5:8 But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/ |
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| Are you saying it is wrong to be quiet and listen to God speak to you with his still small voice? That is what I call comptemplative prayer. Jesus could only say what He heard his father saying. Taking that to worship ourselves is obviously ludacrous. Aligning with the occult is obvious because those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life and the only begotten Son of God are of the anti christ spirit which is in the earth today. |
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| Are you saying it is wrong to be quiet and listen to God speak to you with his still small voice? That is what I call comptemplative prayer. Jesus could only say what He heard his father saying. Taking that to worship ourselves is obviously ludacrous. Aligning with the occult is obvious because those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life and the only begotten Son of God are of the anti christ spirit which is in the earth today. |
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The elect will be deceived. Keep mysticism out of Jesus Christ's church. It is the beginning of many other evils that will be introduced into God's church. Contemplative Spirituality: A belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but often wrapped in Christian terminology. The premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all). http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/ Listen to What Contemplatives Have To Say About This Form of Prayer and the Contemplative Lifestyle. "For Fr. Bede, being universal meant to be centered and grounded. He generated this universality of heart through his daily practice of meditation and contemplative prayer, and this opened him ever more to the myths, symbols and teachings of the other great religions of the world."
Man, Monk, Mystic by Pascaline Coff, O.S.B. Speaking of Bede Griffiths. "This understanding of the unity of the human family is central to Christianity. Our spiritual journey, especially contemplative prayer, together with its practices for daily life, are processes of becoming aware of just how profound that unity is with God, ourselves, other people, other living beings, the earth, and all creation." Thomas Keating in The Transformation of Suffering "... beyond our methods and understanding is an ultimate reality that is open to all people regardless of their religious traditions. The overwhelming sense of this groundbreaking conference was the unifying force of a contemplative prayer practice."
Jena Hatchett WCCM 2001 Did Jesus instruct his followers to empty their minds through contemplative prayer? Spiritual Formation is the Practice of Contemplative Spirituality It is ironic that in this century more Christians have died for their faith in other countries than
have died in past centuries combined. Many of these Christians have departed from Islam, Hinduism,
or Buddhism to meet their executioners. What would these martyrs of the faith say to us if they could
speak of our current Western practice of intermingling Christianity with Eastern religion and the
occult? The Bible warns against such mixture:
I Corinthians 10: 21, 22 “You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; you cannot
be partakers of the Lord’s table and of the table of devils.
Jesus never taught his disciples techniques to attain oneness with God but rather spoke of
Himself as the Way. In fact, the entire New Testament was written to dispute the idea that people
can reach God through religious efforts and reveal that Jesus Christ is the only answer. In conclusion,
the contemplative movement is founded on the following *false premises:
The heart of man is basically good and (it has a divine center). Vs. The heart of man is wicked.—A
DENIAL OF THE SIN NATURE
Man can find God through his own efforts regardless of what religion he has embraced. Vs. Jesus
referred to Himself as the Way, the Truth, and the Life.—A DENIAL OF THE ATONEMENT
6
God is delighted by chanting and similar methods of meditative prayer. Vs. Jesus said that
He isn’t.—A DENIAL OF GOD’S PERSONAL NATURE
With false premises as these, the conclusions can only be erroneous. The Bible creates the
proper understanding and balance of 1) man as sinful, 2) needing a redeemer, 3) with
whom he can have an abundant life.
* In philosophy, every “argument” must have a premise and a conclusion, but if your premises are
false, it will inevitably lead you to a false conclusion. in part from: Contemplative Prayer and
the Evangelical Church
by
Ray Yungen http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/contemplativeprayerarticlebyray.pdf http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newsletter091106.htm
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| The ignorance that this article has of the role of mysticism and contemplation in Christianity is appalling. |
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| Yes, I'm sure the real role of how evil that the infection of mysticism and contemplation in Christianity and the emergence of it into our churches is 10x more appalling and evil then even these reports could hint at. |
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| No,dear. It merely shows how much the specter of ignorance has infiltrated the Church. Mysticism and contemplation are a vital part of our Christian faith. By distancing ourselves from them we distance ourselves from God. |
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 2:51pm |
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If you reject contemplation and mysticism you reject meditation which the Bible teaches we are to practice (Ps. 1). As for mysticism, look at the example of Jesus talking in John about a supernatural (mystical) union that occurs within communion within the elements not a trust in the elements themselves, but the God who works through them. Catholic practices in general are not making gods of everything but glorifying God with the things he has given us. Spiritual Formation may seem to be an emerging trend to you, but the church throughout history has practiced these things regularly it is simply that the emerging church of today has stumbled on these much older Christ honoring practices. My question for you is why don't you believe we are suppose to experience the Kingdom of God here and now when everything Jesus was about how to bring the Kingdom of God into our lives here and now. You ought rethink these issues because you lack a great deal of understanding about the truth of spiritual Formation.
Shane ><> |
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I have not given this issue much (if any) thought. So I am asking in my own ignorance, what do the proponents of mysticism and contemplation think of the following phrases:
"empty their minds"
"altered states of consciousness"
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| I think the whole notion of "self-emptying" is poorly understood by many evangelicals. What would be a better way to translate the word would be "self-giving". Think of it this way: you have a bottle of water and you wish the bottle to be empty. What do you do? You can pour the bottle out until it is empty upon the parched ground. Or you can empty the bottle into the mouth of a poor man who is thirsty. The former is an excercise in conceit, the latter is the practice in self-emptying. |
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How easily the devil has deceived you, your pushovers! I will pray for each of you, because surely your mislead. 52:3 Thou lovest evil more than good, And lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah Stick with the word of God, get rid of the baloney. 4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or `if' ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with `him'. The Bible calls Satan the great deceiver. To be deceived means to be led away from the truth without knowing it. If the person being deceived knew they were being deceived, then deception would not have occurred. One must believe that one is not deceived in order to be deceived. It is just that simple. I believe that understanding deception has a lot to do with having a proper perspective. Instead of having God’s perspective, the person being deceived has his own perspective. A human desire for power and the potential to be proud are two of the greatest barriers that prevent us from seeing God’s perspective. Satan’s plan is to deceive mankind by working on human weaknesses. He knows what he is doing. In Proverbs we read: “There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” [1] Think about this for a moment. The Bible states “the wages of sin is death.” So what may seem right, can lead to death because the consequence of sin is death. Do you see how deception works? Sometimes it is beneficial to take time to do a reality check on our lives. For example, a Christian can be confident that he or she is serving the Lord when he is actually deceived. This is because what we do “seems to be right” in our eyes. Not long ago a situation occurred which helped me to see how easily one can be deceived by not having the proper perspective. I was looking over a series of slides on my digital camera. I had taken these photos while traveling around England. Without knowing what I had done I had somehow expanded the view on one particular slide from the normal view to a view that was 10 times enlarged. As I was flipping through the slides, I could not figure out what the scene was that I had photographed. Moving the picture around on the screen from left to right and top to bottom did not help. It was the most frustrating experience. Nothing that I could see in the photo seemed to give me a clue where I had taken this photo. Suddenly, I remembered how to view the slide in the normal unexpanded view. In a second I could see what the picture was and recalled exactly where I had taken it. I just needed the proper perspective. Perhaps this illustration will be useful to help you see what can happen to human beings, ministries, pastors and even denominations. It is very easy to go about our lives thinking we are God’s chosen vessel, doing His will, when we are deceived and doing the work of Satan. This is why it is important that we read the Word and give ourselves a reality check from time to time. When the Glory Has Departed I know Christian leaders and denominations that started out right but have ended up wrong. This downfall can be predicted in light of church history. God has raised up individuals from time to time to be leaders. As long as these leaders are led by the Holy Spirit and continue in His Word, God’s blessings will be abundant. Sometimes, a pastor will become a leader and a model for many other pastors. Eventually, a fellowship of churches with like-minded pastors may be the result. This fellowship of pastors teaches the Word of God and the sheep are enlightened and fed. The sheep, because they are learning, love God with all their heart. This love spreads to the horizontal plane and love is overflowing. The sheep want to tell others about Jesus. It is even possible to have a Jesus movement. However, the passing of time has a way of helping us forget. Perhaps another way of saying this is that Satan hates what God is doing. It doesn’t take long before the fellowship of pastors takes on a different perspective. Some pastors forget from where they came. They were once shepherds with small flocks. As they taught the Word and fed the sheep, the small flocks grew to become mega-churches. These mega-churches grew to the point that there was no longer a flock, there was a herd. There were so many sheep in the flock that the shepherd had no choice but to manage the flock by turning the church into a corporation. As everyone knows, churches, when they become corporations have to operate like a corporation not a church. In the world, people in corporations are always looking for position. The only way one can be successful in climbing the corporate ladder is to be loyal to the corporation and the corporate president. Here lies a problem—when a Christian becomes more loyal to a man than to the Son of Man, spirituality can soon turn into carnality. Carnality that is further driven by the obsession for power, position and possession often is the perfect recipe for disaster. What once was a wonderful Spirit-filled church now becomes a machine that simply goes through the motions. Everything looks like it is working. However, the machine is broken. When the Spirit Departs In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit inspired the writer of I Samuel to give us an example of what happened to the children of Israel in days past. Israel, as a nation, knew the glory of God's presence among them. The children of Israel prospered and became strong as they followed the Lord. However, Israel turned from God by making wrong choices. Eventually, they came to the place where the presence of God was no longer among them. The glory of God had departed. In a desperate attempt to win a battle with the Philistine army, Israel devised a plan. The leaders actually believed that if they took the ark of the covenant with them to battle that God was obligated to lead them to victory. Such was not the case. God did not fight for Israel. Israel was defeated and the Philistines triumphed and even took the ark. When a messenger returned from the battlefield with the sad news that the army was defeated, the ark captured, and the two sons of Eli were dead, Eli fell backward off his chair, broke his neck and died. Eli’s daughter-in-law, the wife of one of the sons killed in battle was pregnant. When she heard the news that her husband, brother-in-law and father-in-law were dead she went into labor. She gave birth to a son, but she died during the delivery. The Bible states that the woman who was acting as the midwife named the son—Ichabod. “Ichabod” means the glory has departed. [1] There are other examples in Scripture of what happens when the Spirit of God departs from a man. For example in 1 Samuel 16: 14 we read, “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” Or, remember the story of Samson. Once empowered by the Spirit there came a time when the LORD departed from him and Samson was not even aware that it happened. [2] A Biblical Solution The Bible paints a grim scenario with regard to what happens when the Spirit of God departs, doesn’t it? Well, I have some good news. There is a solution. I believe that such a scenario could be turned around. God wants His servants to finish the race. He does not take joy in seeing them defeated.Do you recall the words of Jesus when He spoke to the church at Ephesus as recorded in Revelation 2? [3] While the members of the church were noted for saying what was right, in their zeal to be right, they were wrong. In fact it almost seems as if the Spirit of God had departed from their midst This can be deduced by reading what Jesus said. He was warning that He would depart from their midst. Jesus said that the church at Ephesus had “left their first love” and that they needed to “repent” and “return to the place” where they had once been. That means they had departed and did not know it. Jesus said He would remove the “candlestick” if they did not repent. Clearly Scripture interprets this to mean that Jesus would remove His presence from the church of Ephesus. Did that mean He was about to write “Ichabod” above the door of the church? The Spirit of God points us to the Word. The Word, Jesus said, is the truth. What we do with the truth is entirely up to us. We can choose to obey or to disobey. I would pray that every Christian would sincerely ask God for His perspective of where we are and what we are doing. Don’t rely upon the praises of man or the fear of man as a spiritual barometer. When we stand before the throne all the things we did in the flesh will burn like wood and hay. Only those things that were done when we were led by the Spirit will count. It is all about getting the right perspective, now. Before it is too late. Commentary by Roger Oakland
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 4:36pm |
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As to altered states of consciousness that is never the goal of mysticism. That is a misunderstanding from someone trying to find fault and purporting out of observation rather than participation. As a participant of mysticism and contemplation I can tell you from personal experience it is a wholesome activity with many sanctifying benefits. Jesus himself participated in both of these and it did not alter his state of consciousness but rather offered Him time and strength with His Father.
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| Thanks for your input DR/Shane! I really want(ed) to understand what you guys thought. |
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 4:47pm |
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| It seems what you have just said needs to be applied in your own mind. Consider the source where you get your truth. Test that truth and see if it frees you or causes you anger, frustration or irritation over others disagreeing with your point of view. The way, truth and life of Christ is our stnadrad and focus not someones miscalculated, misunderstanding of christ. Mysticism and contemplation existed long before the modern ways of worship. I'm not siding with Willow Creek, I don't know enough about them, but if they are moving in that direction they are moving into the old practices of the church. |
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 4:49pm |
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| My former response was about Tina |
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 4:52pm |
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Tropical
I'm just trying to offer you a better understanding. They are simply tools for us to use much like an ax. It can be used to chop trees or to injure people the ax itself is not bad. I don't have to go anywhere to reach God but I do have to make myself available to Him and that is all this is about. |
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 5:14pm |
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| It seems you have educated yourself with the truth that seems right in your own eyes rather than follow what Paul said, "Continue in the traditions which you heard taught from the beginning." The oral traditions that came way ahead of the Word contained much for us to learn from. The Bible is best understood when understood in historical accuracy. The Bible itself says that if we had all that works of christ written down the books of the world couldn't contain them so don't you think your understanding might be missing a little something. |
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I pray out load, I listen quietly, I pray in the Spirit, I sing in the Spirit. (1 Cor:14:15) I listen as I read my Bible. I fill my mind with God's word. Do you think you always have to be noisy in the presence of God? Anything that contradicts scripture is either of man or the devil, but to think that being quiet in the presence of God is simply mystical is crazy. A lot of A.D.D. christians. Again, worshipping self, contradicting the Bible, that's all obvious. Jesus said he could only say what he heard the Father saying. How did he do that. He woke up early and went to the mount and prayed(talked to God and listened to God His Father.Mark 1:35) and so should we. |
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"I have said that the ultimate goal of spiritual growth is for the individual to become as one with God ... It is for the individual to become totally, wholly God." M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled
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David Jeremiah Quotes New Ager ... A Mysterious Twist
Source: Ray Yungen
It isn't the first time and may not be the last that popular Christian preacher David Jeremiah quotes a New Ager. But this incident has a mysterious twist. In today's Turning Point commentary, Jeremiah quotes New Ager M. Scott Peck. Jeremiah, whose radio program is played on countless Christian radio stations, has a record of quoting mystics and New Age proponents (see timeline below). In his book Life Wide Open (2003, 2005), Jeremiah said that the book was a road map to a more passionate life. Listing what he called a handful of people who had learned the secret of a passionate life, Jeremiah included New Agers, a Buddhist sympathizer, and mystics. While a report came out on this two years ago, to our knowledge Jeremiah has never publicly commented about that book's content. On the contrary, he continues to promote the book (see examples: 1, 2). In addition, he has defended the spirituality of New Age proponent Ken Blanchard and continually promotes emerging church leader Erwin McManus.
Perhaps one could say, in Jeremiah's defense, that he isn't aware of what the New Age is, let alone M. Scott Peck. But in Jeremiah's 1995 book, Invasion of Other Gods (an excellent expose' of the New Age movement), Jeremiah identifies not only the New Age movement but Peck as part of the New Age. He says:
Someone may proclaim to be a Christian and yet embrace an incompatible non-Christian pluralism, like M. Scott Peck, author of the bestselling book The Road Less Traveled, who frequently uses Christian terminology and considers himself a convert to Christianity and yet who inconsistently proclaims in the sequel, Further Along the Road Less Traveled: "God, unlike some organized religions, does not discriminate. As long as you reach out to Her, She will go the better part of the way to meet you. There are an infinite number of roads to reach God." (p. 18)
This is astounding! David Jeremiah called Peck for what he was 12 years ago, and yet today, he quotes him, not in a critical manner but a favorable one (see more on the spirituality of M. Scott Peck). He warned us about Peck's spirituality in 1995, and in 2007 he quotes him, giving no warning at all. How could this be? What happened?
In Peck's book, Further Along the Road Less Traveled, he said: "If the New Age can reform society rather than just adversely challenge it then it can be extremely holy and desperately needed." Does David Jeremiah realize he is helping to fulfill Peck's dream of a New Age society by consistently quoting these New Age and emerging evangelists? We beseech him to have his own turning point and once again begin to warn about the New Age. It would have to include a warning about Erwin McManus (now a favorite of Jeremiah's) who said it was his goal to destroy Christianity and who said mysticism was at the core of his own spirituality.
"I have said that the ultimate goal of spiritual growth is for the individual to become as one with God ... It is for the individual to become totally, wholly God." M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled
Time Line of Jeremiah's Walk Towards Contemplative Spirituality
2001 - Quotes Henri Nouwen in church services
2002 - Endorses back cover of Erwin McManus' book, Seizing Your Divine Moment
2003, 2005 - In his book, Life Wide Open, Jeremiah favorably quotes the following New Agers, Buddhists and contemplatives,( i.e. mystics):
Sue Monk Kidd
Peter Senge (Buddhist)
Jim Collins
Calvin Miller
Erwin McManus
St. John of the Cross
Brother Lawrence
David Seamands
Eugene Peterson
Rick Warren
2003 - David Jeremiah's church, Shadow Mountain, encourages their men to become involved with contemplative spirituality. Currently, Pastor John Gillette of Shadow Mountain encourages the use of Richard Foster's book, Celebration of Discipline.
2005 - Signs on with Ken Blanchard and Laurie Beth Jones in the Lead Like Jesus conference.
See more.
2006 - David Jeremiah's New Book, Captured by Grace Discusses Henri Nouwen and includes endorsement by Ken Blanchard
November 2006 - David Jeremiah Quotes Erwin McManus in Sermon
Throughout 2007 - Jeremiah continues to promote Life Wide Open
November 2007 - David Jeremiah quotes New Ager M. Scott Peck on Turning Point, after identifying him as part of the New Age movement in 1995 in his book, Invasion of Other Gods. ( for links to the above timeline)
For further research:
Spiritual Fusion - When East Meets West by Mike Oppenheimer
http://www.letusreason.org/current78.htm
Jeremiah's endorsement of McManus' book
http://erwinmcmanus.com/seizing
New Age in Religion by Ray Yungen
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch....eligionray.htm |
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The difference is Tropical, and I think that this thread proves it is that we can think and defend our own beliefs. Both you and Tina fill up the thread with ponderous pontifications which in all likelihood you haven't read yourself. Cut and paste is not an exegetical tool. |
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shane |
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November 20, 2007 at 9:56pm |
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I would rather experience freedom which truth gives me than to simply mention beliefs other people have. I don't understanding why the lack of understanding here but it is obvious I'm getting anywhere. Everything that you have said I have heard all my life and it has done nothing for me. It is essentially powerless truth to me. So enjoy your truth.
Shane ><> |
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| To a certain degree I agree with you Shane. Quite frequently, to participate in these forums is akin to running one's head into a rather obtuse wall. But if Christ can call upon the stones and St. Francis can preach to the birds, surely I can participate in these debates. |
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I know, its easy to argue someone's opinion, but its so hard to argue facts. Let me try and use the double edged sword also. 4:2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 4:5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. Yeah....let God do the talking. Amen, Keep me faithful oh Jesus, do not lead me astray, I pray in your name Jesus Christ. |
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recon77 |
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November 21, 2007 at 8:31am |
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Tina, Methinks you are confused. Also, I'm quite scared of all of the green and red, etc. Like so many cult chasers you tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Big mistake! Such as in the scary statement, " It is no new thing that Willow Creek wishes to "transform the planet." They are part of the emerging spirituality that includes Rick Warren and many other major Christian leaders who believe the church will usher in the kingdom of God on earth before Christ returns. This dominionist, kingdom-now theology is literally permeating the lecture halls of many Christian seminaries and churches, and mysticism is the propeller that keeps its momentum. Let me state as I have in the past that I'm no fan of Willow Creek or of Rick Warren nor of any new age anything. However, your statement above that lumps in dominionists, kingdom-now...and those that would "usher-in" the Kingdom of God, etc. is very loaded and IMNSHO, shows a great misunderstanding. There is a need (and I'm not going to provide it), to unpack what it seems you are saying. It seems that you actually attack the idea of transforming, or changing the world around us. This is ludicrous. It reminds me of the late, great D. James Kennedy's response to those that say we shouldn't polish brass on a sinking ship (coined by the late, not-as-great G. Vernon McGhee). D. James Kennedy said, at least we should pump the sewage out of the ship. Yes, it is true that many "dominionists, etc." have faulty perceptions and have been seen covorting with new agers, OTOH, your type seems to throw out all reformers as well and seem to be frightened of much that is orthodox in the reformation movement such as calvinism itself. The fact is, the Kingdom of God is already here (that is kingdom now) and now amount of your huffing and puffing and tilting at windmills will change that in the slightest. Christ will have his way. Back off.
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Tina, this one is for you! 1, 2, 3, 4 I declare a Scripture war! 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah.... 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this `battle': set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of Jehovah with you.... 4:5:Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah. 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God. |
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"You have no answers yet when people stand up for truth you throw in blanket statements." You mean blanket statements like these?: "Catholicism teaches praying to dead people who are declared saints by other people, yet the word of God proclaims one mediator between god and man.""Catholicism tries to place Mary on par with God, and a few popes have tried to place her with the trinity, yet Mary says in the scriptures her need for a savior." Pompous jerk vs. Hypocrite, what a battle.... |
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| Right Tropical, they are only in context, when they back up your points. |
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You are deceived, I will pray for you. It is the end-times, and we were warned of teachings like this that will contaminate our Churches, deceive the elect. God will spit this out. Its hype, its silliness, its foolish. I do not believe Jesus will recognize a church that practices these things when HE returns, I pray for the people fooled. I hope this sickness of eastern practices, RCC practices, new age mysticism, contemplative prayer dies quicker then the hippy movement in the 60's or disco of the 70's. This is not Jesus moving on the earth, this is satan working on His church for the end times. |
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| test the spirits, and these spirits....stink of satan. |
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And I will pray for you when I do the Divine Office. LOL..."sickness of eastern practices and RCC practices"...oh the hubris of evangelicals. Contemplative prayer and mysticism has been with Chistianity for the past 2000 years, your particular denomination has only been around for probably less than 200 years. I'll put my money on the horse that has staying power. |
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| Tina and Tropical Guy - you are both wrong - just plain wrong. It's time for you to stop and get on your knees and repent. Repent from your horrible attitudes. Repent from your mean spirited "rebuttals" because they are not of the Lord. They are from self. If you are not able to delve into the Holy Word and meditate - yes - meditate - on it, waiting for God to speak then it's time to be quiet. It's time to stop and let God work in your lives. Do not attempt to teach others until you have proven yourselves. Stop pulling from other's works to support your so called stances. Believe it or not, your thoughts/beliefs are not the end all for mankind. Quote back all the scriptures you like, but until your hearts change you'll never convince anyone. |
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Tropical Guy, with the vitriolic manner in which you address those who disagree with you, I'm sure that no matter what I were to take the time to type in here, you'd not read it. Your mind is made up. The "discussion" for my part is ended. Dark Radiance, brother, I pray you have the stamina to continue to good fight. I leave you in peace. |
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Thank you, Puritan and peace and all good to you.
Do we "pray to the dead" No. Do we beleive in the communion of saints. Yes. Death does not separate us from our brothers and sisters in Christ. Anymore than living across country separates me from the love of my earthly family. |
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If you are communing with spirits of the dead like you commune with your relatives across country, I would urge you to stop. People who die are either in hell or heaven, spirits who commune with us on this earth are demons trying to deceive you.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2426055802753957600 spirits are very deceiving, after all their leader is the father of all lies, Satan. |
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